Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

[Pokecheque]

And even the eye test can't tell you if the problem was the coach/VP or if it they were just a bad team, with a terrible defense.

For those that insist it was Roy, I'd love to hear an argument for why these teams consisting of the players they did, deserved to be more than the bubble teams they were? There might even be a better argument that they actually overachieved under Roy not underachieved.

2014-15 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2015-16 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

We can say that in hindsight, that's not what we thought at the time, nor was it what both Sakic and Roy thought. And Roy had input on that roster and opted to give vastly inferior players like Nate Guenin serious minutes.

Also, it's still possible to say that a coach's tactics were poor, especially with Roy who was always very slow to adjust, especially in-game. Coaches like Babcock feasted on him and his wonky systems, even with inferior rosters. I also feel he just plain got worse as time went on. He didn't grow or evolve as a coach.

I don't know if others feel this is a good place to debate how good or bad Roy was, or if we should put these posts in a different thread. I'm fine either way. Since it was you who created this and work diligently to keep the transactions up to date, you're probably best-qualified to make that call.

 

[Anders Cain]

I speculate that if roy had full roster control he would have set the team back a few years. Just based on who it was rumoured he wanted, who he didn't like and how i speculate he would have handled something like the duchene situation/trade...i just have a feeling he would have tried to make a competative team but with the players available in UFA, for example, we would have possibly made some head scratcher of signings. Like maybe we'd have radulov, but does he go with lawson crause over rantanen because he likes his physicality more? I also feel like he may have sold low on duchene (more speculation) because i don't imagine he would have had the patience to wait it out like sakic did. That's just based on my assumption that roy doesn't seem like a patient guy

 

[Bubba Thudd]

You're doing an awful lot of speculating about my thought process.

Well, from everything I've read, you have a very speculative thought process.

 

[Foppa2118]

We can say that in hindsight, that's not what we thought at the time, nor was it what both Sakic and Roy thought. And Roy had input on that roster and opted to give vastly inferior players like Nate Guenin serious minutes.

Also, it's still possible to say that a coach's tactics were poor, especially with Roy who was always very slow to adjust, especially in-game. Coaches like Babcock feasted on him and his wonky systems, even with inferior rosters. I also feel he just plain got worse as time went on. He didn't grow or evolve as a coach.

I don't know if others feel this is a good place to debate how good or bad Roy was, or if we should put these posts in a different thread. I'm fine either way. Since it was you who created this and work diligently to keep the transactions up to date, you're probably best-qualified to make that call.

We knew the defense was terrible. I pointed to that as the biggest problem with the team every time the subject came up. Roy deserves part of the blame for the roster, but that wasn't the roster him or Sakic actually wanted. It was full of stop gaps. They missed out on multiple UFA's multiple summers in a row, and didn't complete any trades.

This is why I said originally that the whole process took longer than they expected. They hoped to build a more competitive team, but they didn't, and they ended up having to trade two core players to dig their way out. In the process making the team younger and extending the rebuild. Which is why Roy left. The team just wasn't going to be good that final year of his contract, and he'd be let go anyway.

I don't agree with the criticisms you made in your middle paragraph, but I suppose there's not much reason to re-hash that argument. Especially without specifics on how he wasn't able to adjust, or how he got feasted on, etc.

I just think people overlook how bad those teams actually were, and don't realize that was the major reason why they didn't perform well. The coaching was only a small part of it. He tried lots of different strategies, and none of them could turn a bad team into a good one like they did in 2013-14.

 

[forsbergavs32]

I don't know if others feel this is a good place to debate how good or bad Roy was, or if we should put these posts in a different thread. I'm fine either way. Since it was you who created this and work diligently to keep the transactions up to date, you're probably best-qualified to make that call.

For me personally, its probably the right place as Roy had a lot to do with how people viewed Sakic during those years. Roy had a lot of input those first 2 years and was probably a big reason for the failure as he was likely the one who pushed for bringing in Iginla and Beauchemin to try to compete now, not to mention his overuse of certain guys like Holden and Guenin (granted we didn't exactly have a ton of options). But I don't think it's coincidence that the rebuild started to make some progress once Roy was cut out of the decision making and suddenly Sakic began to get some praise. Roy was a fun personality to have around and made things interesting but he wasn't a good coach strategically and he was WAAAYYYYYYY too impatient to be a GM of a team needing to find an identity.

 

[McMetal]

Let's not forget that Roy kept Army and his terrible PP around, too. It was criminal how bad our power play was during those years with the offensive firepower on the team. Roy may not have built that power play scheme, but he didn't get rid of the guy who did, and there's no reason to expect that he didn't have full control over his staff until Pratt came along. Roy didn't just coach poorly, he had a poor eye for talent on that front.

 

[Foppa2118]

For me personally, its probably the right place as Roy had a lot to do with how people viewed Sakic during those years. Roy had a lot of input those first 2 years and was probably a big reason for the failure as he was likely the one who pushed for bringing in Iginla and Beauchemin to try to compete now, not to mention his overuse of certain guys like Holden and Guenin (granted we didn't exactly have a ton of options). But I don't think it's coincidence that the rebuild started to make some progress once Roy was cut out of the decision making and suddenly Sakic began to get some praise. Roy was a fun personality to have around and made things interesting but he wasn't a good coach strategically and he was WAAAYYYYYYY too impatient to be a GM of a team needing to find an identity.

The rebuild finally made progress because Sakic finally traded ROR and Duchene. Those moves don't happen and the blueline is still terrible without Zadorov and Girard, and the team is too as a result.

The Iginla/Beauchemin criticism is the exact idea I'm talking about where Roy gets blamed for things that Sakic easily could have been pushing for as well.

Let's not forget that Roy kept Army and his terrible PP around, too. It was criminal how bad our power play was during those years with the offensive firepower on the team. Roy may not have built that power play scheme, but he didn't get rid of the guy who did, and there's no reason to expect that he didn't have full control over his staff until Pratt came along. Roy didn't just coach poorly, he had a poor eye for talent on that front.

I don't really understand this criticism. By that logic, Joel Quenneville is a poor coach and has a poor eye for talent because he kept Jacques Cloutier around for three years.

 

[Makar to MacK]

The rebuild finally made progress because Sakic finally traded ROR and Duchene. Those moves don't happen and the blueline is still terrible without Zadorov and Girard, and the team is too as a result.

The Iginla/Beauchemin criticism is the exact idea I'm talking about where Roy gets blamed for things that Sakic easily could have been pushing for as well.



I don't really understand this criticism. By that logic, Joel Quenneville is a poor coach and has a poor eye for talent because he kept Jacques Cloutier around for three years.

I disagree and think the Army and Cloutier are completely differant because Quenneville was a more established coach with less authority then Roy had. At least that my opinion

 

[Foppa2118]

I disagree and think the Army and Cloutier are completely differant because Quenneville was a more established coach with less authority then Roy had. At least that my opinion

Most teams let the head coach pick one assistant, and the GM picks the other. Roy picked Tourigny and was part of the decision process for replacing him with Farrish. Army was a holdover for multiple coaches the same way Cloutier was with Q.

Roy didn't have as much authority as thought. He wasn't too happy that they brought in Pratt. Bednar got to make the decision on replacing Farrish with Pratt on the bench.

Army meanwhile stayed on with Bednar after Roy left. Making it pretty clear the team was making the calls on whether Army stayed or left, the same way they did with Cloutier. They also made the call on replacing Army with Bennett.

 

[The Merchant]

Regardless of what Roy had in mind, I'm over the moon about how this team is shaping up both now and in the immediate future. I think it's safe to say we're in a much better position now than we would've been had he stuck around.

 

[Foppa2118]

Regardless of what Roy had in mind, I'm over the moon about how this team is shaping up both now and in the immediate future. I think it's safe to say we're in a much better position now than we would've been had he stuck around.

IMO, with a few lesser personnel additions aside, this is basically the team they were building toward. It just took longer than they were expecting, and they had to trade a couple core pieces to get there, and it set them back by getting younger.

The defense alone took about 12 years to finally re-build properly after Blake left. They were never happy with it during that time. They alluded to it all the time. They just couldn't land the big UFA's or make the big trades to fix it.

They're in a much better place now but it's because the core players are leading the way in MacK, Mikko, Landy, EJ, Barrie, and Varly. They've all finally matured and grown into their roles, and in the case of MacKinnon, I think Bednar's even keel demeanor has been really good for him.

 

[Freudian]

I think it's healthy for the organization to moved on. It's not a good idea to have a head coach with so much say into personnel matters. As for the other things, of course there is some speculation involved. But it's speculation based on educated guesses of what we saw/read/knew.

When I read Waingro's posts, it strikes me he could just replace "Roy" with "Sacco" and his argument would be the same. Sacco had about the same amount of success in the NHL as a head coach and he had less to work with.

It's of course fine to think Roy was a fine coach with little influence that was the victim of unfortunate circumstances here. I think it's wrong, but everyone is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Pokecheque]

Yep. I don't think the two-headed monster would have worked regardless of who was in charge. You can't have two people with managerial control like that. But I also believe Roy was not a good coach in the NHL, nor was he a good "GM." I still hope he gets a shot somewhere, but it doesn't look likely.

 

[klozge]

Scouting, coaching, Colorado Eagles, team on the ice, prospects... Sakic has rebuilt the franchise. Medics need some upgrades still but he has done so much in so little time.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Joe's biggest job atm will be keeping the roster / list together. Will be tough. Big contracts may be coming.
Need to develop and improve that 2nd line.

 

[Youngblood29]

Joe's biggest job atm will be keeping the roster / list together. Will be tough. Big contracts may be coming.
Need to develop and improve that 2nd line.

I don't think that it will be "too tough" to keep this roster together.
We still have +12million on cap (+ I imagine that cap hit will be higher in next year)
Colin Wilson 3,9million contract will end after this year.. If we will keep him, I would assume that the salary wont be any higher, rather little bit lower. But if we will let him go because the young players coming up, we would save 4million right away.
Patrick Nemeth 2,5million.. I would not continue after this year.. Saving some money there..

So lets say we have +15 million in the cap space for the next year (and I am under estimating the amount).

I don't think we have a problem to sign: Rantanen, Zadorov and even Varly, which I would like to keep.

MacKinnon 6,3million for next 4 years, Landy 5,5 for next 2 years..
If we are paying that "little" for 1st line players.. We cannot have problems if other teams are paying 8-12 million for their multiple top players

So I think we are in "perfect" place because of Mac low salary cap etc.

But I do agree, that we need to improve 2nd line / depth scoring..
Because the season has started so well, I cannot help for myself, wanting us to trade example our next summer 2nd round draft pick or something similar to that.. To get some players..
To really push and try to get as deep as possible for this year..
Trading 2nd + some prospect.. We wont harm our future at all, because we have still 2 1st round picks and all the drafted player from the past..

So why just wait wait and wait.. I know we are young team but if they are playing well.. Lets encourage that and give the push !

 

[Pokecheque]

It all comes down to drafting/development. You can't ice a true contender without squeezing some ELCs into key roles in the lineup. That's what ultimately undid the 2013-14 Avs. They had great high-end talent but there was absolutely nothing on the farm to supplement it, and after years of bare-bones budget, salary floor teams they ran out of cap space in Year Two of the Sakic/Roy era. Even if they hadn't made three absolutely atrocious acquisitions in Stuart, Beauchemin, and Iginla during that time, it still wouldn't have worked.

I do so wish Sakic/Roy's mad scientist experiment with all those "gambles" on European free agents had panned out, even a little. I was seriously pulling for Borna Rendulic to become a real impact player. You see a lot more of that happening with organizations in dire need of depth looking outside of the draft to incorporate talent. But at the very least I think it opened them to the idea of guys like Lewis, Dries, and Francouz.

I also think, just in hindsight, they waited way, way too long to shitcan Dean Chynoweth. I get they wanted to take a good long look at what they had before making wholesale changes, but I think they could've made a move sooner.

Lastly (and yes I know this post is long) I'm still not convinced Billington should be the guy going forward, but I feel like this inaugural season of the AHL Eagles will be a kinda/sorta referendum on his tenure. If the AHL affiliate faceplants this time around, Eagles ownership won't be quiet about it.

tl;dr: You need to draft well to succeed in the NHL, I wish Rendulic and Dennis Everflow had panned out, Chyno shoulda been fired sooner, and the Eagles may or may not get Billington fired.

 

[PAZ]

Joe's biggest job atm will be keeping the roster / list together. Will be tough. Big contracts may be coming.
Need to develop and improve that 2nd line.

Posted this in another thread, but figured it's more applicable here. Anyways here's a list of what he'll be dealing with in the 2018-19 season/offseason:

Sakic is going to have a hell of a 2019 season, he's not going to have time to sleep. He has definitely set him up for success and have a huuuuge 2019 season, but it's a hell of a list. He needs to:

- Negotiate with Barrie and either trade him or sign him to an extension
- Figure out which goalies he will be keeping between Varlamov, Grubauer, and Francouz (and potentially negotiate a contract with Varlamov/Francouz)
- Potentially sign a free agent (Stone, Skinner, Hayes, Duchene, Panarin, Brassard, Silfverberg etc.)
- Deal with the 2019 Draft with 2 1sts and 5 total picks in the first 3 rounds
- Sign Peacock to an extension
- Sign Rantanen to an extension
- Sign Kerfoot to an extension
- Sign Compher to an extension
- Sign Kamenev to an extension
- Sign Greer to an extension
- Figure out what he's doing with Andrighetto, Wilson, Dano, Bourque, Nemeth

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Posted this in another thread, but figured it's more applicable here. Anyways here's a list of what he'll be dealing with in the 2018-19 season/offseason:

Sakic is going to have a hell of a 2019 season, he's not going to have time to sleep. He has definitely set him up for success and have a huuuuge 2019 season, but it's a hell of a list. He needs to:

- Negotiate with Barrie and either trade him or sign him to an extension
- Figure out which goalies he will be keeping between Varlamov, Grubauer, and Francouz (and potentially negotiate a contract with Varlamov/Francouz)
- Potentially sign a free agent (Stone, Skinner, Hayes, Duchene, Panarin, Brassard, Silfverberg etc.)
- Deal with the 2019 Draft with 2 1sts and 5 total picks in the first 3 rounds
- Sign Peacock to an extension
- Sign Rantanen to an extension
- Sign Kerfoot to an extension
- Sign Compher to an extension
- Sign Kamenev to an extension
- Sign Greer to an extension
- Figure out what he's doing with Andrighetto, Wilson, Dano, Bourque, Nemeth

Meh....Rants get a paycheck and it'll be big.
But as the for the others, I'm really not too worried about it. Some nice pieces but none of them really carry or deserve a huge windfall yet.
Barrie will either fit the team's payroll structure this summer or be dealt.
Z will either solidify himself as a 3.5-4M player this season or not.
Kerfoot can kiss my ass...I've seen enough of him and hope he's not around next year. We need shooters.
Compher....will be cheap and should be a good third liner for a few years.
Kamenev, should be cheap as long as given an opportunity to grow. I'm more worried about his minutes than his dollar figure. If he's given minutes, his salary will go up but I don't see it getting high enough to worry about.
Greer....as much as I love him, I don't think Bednar will give him a chance unless Joe forces his hand....and I don't see that happening. I see him becoming a solid 3rd liner on another team.

There really are only two big things on Sakic's radar....the goalie thing...he has to decide what to do (or not...it's fine to let Varly walk if we are pushing up in the standings at the deadline) and how big of a pay-day Rants gets.

Everything else is gravy. He can't be PL cheap on his 3rd/4th liners but he's got a lot of lee-way. The thing is, he has to identify his 2nd liners and spend that money. If the current kids aren't cutting it at the end of the year, he's gotta start looking at packaging them in trades and thinking about the UFA market.

I would keep Andrighetto....get rid of Wilson, Bourque (if he's not happy going back to the AHL) and Nemeth. I like Nemeth but I would keep the cheaper Barbario around for insurance considering what should be coming into the team over the next year.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I'd say a big factor on what happens with Barrie is gonna be Makar.


The hope will be Makar joins the team towards the end of March or early April. And if he looks good down the stretch and into playoffs then it will give the Avs significantly more freedom to move Barrie if his contract demands are out of our range.

 

[lonelybadger]

The thing I like most about Sakic (and I was one of his bigger critics) is that he has proven to be true to his word and appears to be carrying out a vision of what he wants. Sakic does need to learn to be a bit more proactive than reactive but his results have been above average. Sakic is not afraid to make the team better for the long run (Duchene trade is the most recent) but also the rumors of trying to hire Dubas to improve the club.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Posted this in another thread, but figured it's more applicable here. Anyways here's a list of what he'll be dealing with in the 2018-19 season/offseason:

Sakic is going to have a hell of a 2019 season, he's not going to have time to sleep. He has definitely set him up for success and have a huuuuge 2019 season, but it's a hell of a list. He needs to:

- Negotiate with Barrie and either trade him or sign him to an extension
- Figure out which goalies he will be keeping between Varlamov, Grubauer, and Francouz (and potentially negotiate a contract with Varlamov/Francouz)
- Potentially sign a free agent (Stone, Skinner, Hayes, Duchene, Panarin, Brassard, Silfverberg etc.)
- Deal with the 2019 Draft with 2 1sts and 5 total picks in the first 3 rounds
- Sign Peacock to an extension
- Sign Rantanen to an extension
- Sign Kerfoot to an extension
- Sign Compher to an extension
- Sign Kamenev to an extension
- Sign Greer to an extension
- Figure out what he's doing with Andrighetto, Wilson, Dano, Bourque, Nemeth

X Extend Barrie
X Extend Varlamov and keep Grubauer
X Sign UFA Panarin
X Re-sign Rants, Kerfy, JT, Kam, Greer, Ghetto, Dano & Nemeth
X Hope Timmins, Makar, Kaut continue to develop
X Acquire a big name Center like Nylander

2019-2020
Landy - Mack - Rants
Panarin - Nylander - Kaut
Ghetto - Jost - Kerfoot
Calvert - Kamanev - JT
(Dano)

Girard - EJ
Cole - Barrie
Zad - Makar
(Nemeth)

Varlamov
Grubauer

 

[AllAboutAvs]

One thing Sakic doesn't get enough credit for IMO is his decision to stick with Bednar after that awful season. It would have been really easy for him to take the easy decision and fire Bednar. Instead he went with his belief and gave Bednar more time to prove he belongs as an NHL coach. Sakic recognized that Bednar needed his type of players to be successful and he went he got the necessary guys. Great turnaround in a very short time since having one of the worst season in NHL history.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

X Extend Barrie
X Extend Varlamov and keep Grubauer
X Sign UFA Panarin
X Re-sign Rants, Kerfy, JT, Kam, Greer, Ghetto, Dano & Nemeth
X Hope Timmins, Makar, Kaut continue to develop
X Acquire a big name Center like Nylander

2019-2020
Landy - Mack - Rants
Panarin - Nylander - Kaut
Ghetto - Jost - Kerfoot
Calvert - Kamanev - JT
(Dano)

Girard - EJ
Cole - Barrie
Zad - Makar
(Nemeth)

Varlamov
Grubauer

Literally impossible with the salary cap.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Lol, seriously... sign Panarin, trade for Nylander(with what?), extend Barrie, extend Varlamov, extend Rantanen and everybody else. Soderberg magically gone, too. Maybe we traded him to Toronto for Nylander.

That’s a $100m team.