Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

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Foppa2118

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I was very much not a fan of Roy as a coach. He was a one-trick pony and it worked until Yeo wrote the book on him and the entire league read it. He was a great motivator but bad at strategy, and his assistants only magnified his flaws rather than covered them.

But the real problem with the Avs before Roy left was neither Sakic nor Roy. It was the two of them together. Roy had too much power/respect in the org, and he and Sakic were clearly not on the same page. Two competing visions for the team pulling in opposite directions led to a franchise without an identity, and that's what led to the meltdown. It was like two different teams had been thrown together the day before the game and had no idea what to do with each other. One fast and skilled, one slow and heavy. I strongly believe that one or the other alone could have done better than that because at least the team would have known what it wanted to be. Instead, we got the pile of spare parts with no cap space that dropped a giant deuce in 16-17.

Roy actually tried many different tactics, but none of them worked well enough to make up for the deficiencies on those teams, specifically the weak blueline.

Honestly, look at these teams and tell me if they deserved to be more than bubble teams?

2014-15 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2015-16 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Of the 38 players used in 2014-15, only 10 are still NHLers. And that includes McGinn, McLeod, and Holden who are barely holding down NHL jobs. So they had seven legit NHLers that year.

In 2015-16, 14 of the 36 used were in the NHL last year. With Holden, McLeod, and Matthias barely holding down NHL jobs.

Compare that to Minnesota, who were at a similar point in their rebuild, and basically had the kind of success the Avs were hoping to have in that time. A Wild Card team that didn't go far in the playoffs.

In 2014-15, they had 22 players out of 35 that are still regular NHLers. In 2015-16, they had 20 of 33.

2014-15 Minnesota Wild Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2015-16 Minnesota Wild Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
 
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Freudian

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I don't think Roy was ever happy with not being in charge. He had been GM in QMJHL for a long time while Sakic was more inexperienced. While he acted as if Avs offered him the role as vice president of hockey operations without him asking for it, he probably made it clear he was only interested if he had a lot of input in all player personnel decisions. I think the first few years they did things together with a heavy Roy input (lots of QMJHL draft picks and hires, Roy being involved in contract/trade talks regularly).

When Sakic finally decided he would need to be in charge (no doubt with the backing of Josh Kroenke), Roy quit. I don't think Roy ever had the intention of being just the head coach and certainly not the head coach of a team that's bottom 10 in the league. Bad look for him and Roy hates looking bad.

I said when Roy was hired that you can't really have a coach with a lot of say in player personnel issues because the GM and coach have conflicting interests. The GM has to think long term while a coach always will be tempted to think short term (because most coaching gigs only last a handful of years, so go go go). Luckily for Avs the only real damage made here was trading for Boedker/Gelinas/Matthias in February 2016. Could have been much worse if Roy talked Sakic into going for it in the summer of 2016.
 

Foppa2118

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I don't think Roy was expecting any massive UFA signings in 2016. I think he was hoping for a Duchene trade to finally improve the blueline, but Sakic was still on the fence with that move, so they went with stop gaps yet again with Wiercioch and Tyutin.

I also don't think he had much say in bringing in Nolan Pratt, and that might have rubbed him the wrong way.

As did swapping out Holden for Wiercioch. Which he was actually right on, as Holden would have helped that team more than Wiercioch did.

I also have a feeling he was hoping to land Sergachev at the draft, and was a little unhappy they weren't more aggressive to move up one spot for him.
 

Cousin Eddie

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When Tyson Barrie tells people close to him that Patrick Roy was disgusted when Sakic signed him to that contract and that it was basically the final straw that made Roy walk out, it tells me everything I need to know about Roy.

Patrick Roy is my hero and my favorite player to ever play the game. But he can choke on a d*** as far as it goes with his coaching and “managing” of this team. Couldn’t be happier that he’s gone.

Fortunately for us he left when he did and didn’t have the pull he wanted. The anamocity is gone and there’s no bad blood between our team and our best defenseman. Barrie fully knows Sakic wanted him and the other clown didn’t. We have a legitimate good coach, we have a playoff caliber hockey team and we built one of the best U23 player pools in the entire league.
 

Foppberg

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When Tyson Barrie tells people close to him that Patrick Roy was disgusted when Sakic signed him to that contract and that it was basically the final straw that made Roy walk out, it tells me everything I need to know about Roy.

Patrick Roy is my hero and my favorite player to ever play the game. But he can choke on a d*** as far as it goes with his coaching and “managing” of this team. Couldn’t be happier that he’s gone.

Fortunately for us he left when he did and didn’t have the pull he wanted. The anamocity is gone and there’s no bad blood between our team and our best defenseman. Barrie fully knows Sakic wanted him and the other clown didn’t. We have a legitimate good coach, we have a playoff caliber hockey team and we built one of the best U23 player pools in the entire league.

Is there any source on this?
 

Cousin Eddie

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Is there any source on this?
Paul Bissonette on his podcast last month. The part about it being the “final straw” is just Biz’s speculation and he said Barrie wouldn’t confirm that part but Barrie told him that Roy was saying “get rid of him” and “I don’t want him”.
 
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Freudian

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One thing we have to credit both Roy and Sakic for is how Avs scouting has expanded since they were hired.

2013 Avs had 3 pro scouts and 9 amateur scouts (including Hepple and Pracey).

2018 Avs have 5 pro scouts, one hockey analyst, 11 amateur scouts (including Hepple and Lehto).
 
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Foppberg

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Paul Bissonette on his podcast last month. The part about it being the “final straw” is just Biz’s speculation and he said Barrie wouldn’t confirm that part but Barrie told him that Roy was saying “get rid of him” and “I don’t want him”.

Is that a good podcast? I gave it a quick listen before but wasn't really impressed.
 

Foppa2118

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Paul Bissonette on his podcast last month. The part about it being the “final straw” is just Biz’s speculation and he said Barrie wouldn’t confirm that part but Barrie told him that Roy was saying “get rid of him” and “I don’t want him”.

I don't think Barrie was Roy's cup of tea, but that sounds like such an exaggeration from Bissonette. He's even admitting to speculating. That story just doesn't make any sense anyway. They had a terrible defense back then, they could "just get rid of him." They went to arbitration and ended up signing a four year deal. What would have been a better option, a 1-2 year deal that took him to UFA and lowered his trade value?
 

Cousin Eddie

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I don't think Barrie was Roy's cup of tea, but that sounds like such an exaggeration from Bissonette. He's even admitting to speculating. That story just doesn't make any sense anyway. They had a terrible defense back then, they could "just get rid of him." They went to arbitration and ended up signing a four year deal. What would have been a better option, a 1-2 year deal that took him to UFA and lowered his trade value?
Barrie was in trade rumors every day for like a year and they stopped when Roy left. Roy apparently once called him a #5D too.

Bissonette admitted it was his own speculation on that being the exact reason Roy left but he wasn’t speculating on Roy not liking Barrie and not wanting him signed because he’d cost too much for the type of defenseman Roy believed he was.
 

Foppa2118

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Barrie was in trade rumors every day for like a year and they stopped when Roy left. Roy apparently once called him a #5D too.

Bissonette admitted it was his own speculation on that being the exact reason Roy left but he wasn’t speculating on Roy not liking Barrie and not wanting him signed because he’d cost too much for the type of defenseman Roy believed he was.

I'm pretty sure the trade rumors slowed down because he went through arbitration and re-signed. This plays out the same way for most high profile RFA's in similar situations.

I'm sure Roy would have preferred to swap Barrie for a more two way defenseman, but that defense was brutal back then. He wasn't trying to push him out the door. They couldn't afford to weaken the blueline any more than it was.
 

Avs_19

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Barrie was in trade rumors every day for like a year and they stopped when Roy left. Roy apparently once called him a #5D too.

Bissonette admitted it was his own speculation on that being the exact reason Roy left but he wasn’t speculating on Roy not liking Barrie and not wanting him signed because he’d cost too much for the type of defenseman Roy believed he was.

I think Barrie's name was still out there after Roy left but that was when the team was terrible and Sakic said everyone except MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Jost are available. Even then, Duchene and Landeskog's names were mentioned a lot more frequently. Also, the #5D story I recall was Chambers saying he believes Roy thinks Barrie is a #5D and PP specialist. Then everyone picked up on that and went crazy. I remember Edmonton media being all over it and crediting Chambers and Frei as the sources.

It's no secret Roy wasn't a fan of his though and we all speculated that was just one of the reasons why he quit. IIRC, EJ Hradek said Roy wanted to be involved in the Barrie contract negotiations but Sakic wouldn't let him. It's just speculation but one would think it's because Sakic knew that wouldn't go well at all.

Do you have a link to this podcast?
 

Foppa2118

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One thing we have to credit both Roy and Sakic for is how Avs scouting has expanded since they were hired.

2013 Avs had 3 pro scouts and 9 amateur scouts (including Hepple and Pracey).

2018 Avs have 5 pro scouts, one hockey analyst, 11 amateur scouts (including Hepple and Lehto).

This is one of their biggest contributions, and it will pay dividends for a while. They expanded their presence into eastern Europe, and valued the opinion of guys like Lehto and Carlsson more on the Finnish/Swedish prospects. Almost seemed like they were treated like an afterthought before. Never really utilized except for the late round picks.

I don't think the Avs use their first rounders on Rantanen and Kaut without those changes, and probably don't take a chance on Shvyryov either.
 
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Pokecheque

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Well it's no secret that Roy didn't like the core as is and said so, but it should be pointed out that Barrie had his breakout season under Roy. He didn't hamper the guy's development. If anyone did, it was Sacco. Not sure I buy into Roy being outright angry and "disgusted" about Barrie getting a long-term deal, though I believe it when people say Barrie would not be in Colorado today if Roy had his way.

I'll just say this and leave it, people can feel free to disagree.

It's true the team was lousy, but it's also true that Sakic and Roy put some of those lousy players on the roster. I think I saw enough to make the determination that Roy was a lousy coach in the NHL who was slow to adjust in terms of tactics, and got completely schooled against some of the NHL's better bench bosses, like Mike Babcock. A bad roster only accounts for so much. And there's zero excuse for either guy to sign off on that stupid run of deadline deals in 2016 that ended up doing jack squat. Sadly, I don't think Roy will ever get another shot at the NHL, at least not for a very good long while.
 

Foppa2118

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Barrie became an NHLer under the tutelage of Roy and Tourigny too, and a kind of tough love approach that led them to sending him down again early in 2013-14. Giving him instructions to just work on getting to pucks and moving his feet. Nothing too fancy or east west, just instantly start the transition and get the puck out of the zone. He wasn't an NHL level defenseman before he worked this kink out of his game.
 

member 116861

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When Tyson Barrie tells people close to him that Patrick Roy was disgusted when Sakic signed him to that contract and that it was basically the final straw that made Roy walk out, it tells me everything I need to know about Roy.

Patrick Roy is my hero and my favorite player to ever play the game. But he can choke on a d*** as far as it goes with his coaching and “managing” of this team. Couldn’t be happier that he’s gone.

Fortunately for us he left when he did and didn’t have the pull he wanted. The anamocity is gone and there’s no bad blood between our team and our best defenseman. Barrie fully knows Sakic wanted him and the other clown didn’t. We have a legitimate good coach, we have a playoff caliber hockey team and we built one of the best U23 player pools in the entire league.

Those are fighting words, I am down to kick his ass like Mike Vernon did...
 

Anders Cain

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I'd be scared to see what the team would look like now if roy was given full power instead of sakic. Would have been some pretty heavy differences. I don't remember where I heard or read this but didn't roy not want to draft jost either? I feel like he wanted Logan brown for his size. . Or I might be talking out of my rear. Swear I remember that tho.
 

Foppa2118

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It's amazing how much of people's opinion on Roy is formed by speculation. It's like 90% in most cases.
 

Foppa2118

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Well, 99% of us don't have inside information, so yes, of course we have to speculate, you included.

There's a difference between speculating and acknowledging you're doing so, and speculating but dressing it up as facts. It's the reason why reality is so distorted regarding Roy's coaching strategy, or personnel decisions.

Very few people that talk about him know anything about coaching strategies, or why he might have implemented them, but that doesn't stop a large group of people from calling him a bad coach, or a one trick pony. Very few people know the truth about who he pushed for, or who he didn't prefer, and what his actual trade preferences were, but that doesn't stop a large group of people from saying all the bad signings were his idea, or all the big slow players were Roy players, or that he just wanted to get rid of guys.

People see all this speculation dressed up as facts, can't tell the difference, then start parroting the speculation as facts themselves. It snowballs into a large group of people speculating about something, but not acknowledging the fact that they don't really know. They really think they know. The whole thing is very strange.

People are convinced they know Roy was bad, but they can't really articulate why because they're just parroting other people's speculation, and that speculation didn't include any actual facts.
 

Foppa2118

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Yeah there's really not much to go on other than the eye test watching his strategies in games and the whispers or quotes we hear from the media.

And even the eye test can't tell you if the problem was the coach/VP or if it they were just a bad team, with a terrible defense.

For those that insist it was Roy, I'd love to hear an argument for why these teams consisting of the players they did, deserved to be more than the bubble teams they were? There might even be a better argument that they actually overachieved under Roy not underachieved.

2014-15 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2015-16 Colorado Avalanche Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
 

McMetal

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There's a difference between speculating and acknowledging you're doing so, and speculating but dressing it up as facts. It's the reason why reality is so distorted regarding Roy's coaching strategy, or personnel decisions.

Very few people that talk about him know anything about coaching strategies, or why he might have implemented them, but that doesn't stop a large group of people from calling him a bad coach, or a one trick pony. Very few people know the truth about who he pushed for, or who he didn't prefer, and what his actual trade preferences were, but that doesn't stop a large group of people from saying all the bad signings were his idea, or all the big slow players were Roy players, or that he just wanted to get rid of guys.

People see all this speculation dressed up as facts, can't tell the difference, then start parroting the speculation as facts themselves. It snowballs into a large group of people speculating about something, but not acknowledging the fact that they don't really know. They really think they know. The whole thing is very strange.

People are convinced they know Roy was bad, but they can't really articulate why because they're just parroting other people's speculation, and that speculation didn't include any actual facts.
You're doing an awful lot of speculating about my thought process.
 
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