Joe Sakic & Co - Record with Colorado Avalanche

[ABasin]

Well yeah it's obvious, everyone is judged by results ........ Don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Given the posts in here, I believe a ton of people disagree with it.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

How many really are?

They won't get there without proper drafting and a strong development system, that's why I harp on it every day around here. I truly believe that's the only way in today's cap world. When a team is close then they can look to a trade or a FA to get them over the top but without a foundation they will never get anywhere. That's the part Sakic is responsible for.

Yes, I agree, drafting is the front office's job. It certainly isn't the coach's job.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

This season? God no. In the future? Eh, maybe.

But I don't think you just GM your way into cup contention. Look at every cup recent winner. How brilliant do their GM's look without Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane? Cups aren't traded for or signed in UFA. They're drafted. Right now, they're doing what they can with that.

If the roster isn't good enough this season, but maybe in the future, I hope you aren't saying the existing roster is good enough in the future without any changes and that they just need time to mature. It isn't good enough without some changes. Those changes are the responsibility of the front office, not the coaching staff.

The coaching staff didn't draft Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane. The front office did. The Avs front office and scouting staff have not done well in the mid rounds of the draft. In fact, they've been downright awful. The coaching staff didn't do the drafting.

The bottom line is that the Avs troubles go much deeper than Roy. The entire organization has been stuck in mediocrity for almost a decade and I don't see a lot of things changing that. I thought Sakic and Roy were going to make changes to get back to the top of the NHL but so far it isn't happening. Apparently Roy feels the same way; hence his resignation.

 

[tucker3434]

If the roster isn't good enough this season, but maybe in the future, I hope you aren't saying the existing roster is good enough in the future without any changes and that they just need time to mature. It isn't good enough without some changes. Those changes are the responsibility of the front office, not the coaching staff.

The coaching staff didn't draft Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane. The front office did. The Avs front office and scouting staff have not done well in the mid rounds of the draft. In fact, they've been downright awful. The coaching staff didn't do the drafting.

The bottom line is that the Avs troubles go much deeper than Roy. The entire organization has been stuck in mediocrity for almost a decade and I don't see a lot of things changing that. I thought Sakic and Roy were going to make changes to get back to the top of the NHL but so far it isn't happening. Apparently Roy feels the same way; hence his resignation.

Obviously not this roster with Iginla and the ghost of Brad Stuart on it, but in a few years if Zadorov, Rantanen, Jost, and Bigras all hit their potential, maybe.

None of those guys were drafted in the middle rounds. They were gifts granted by the hockey gods because those teams just happened to pick the perfect time to suck. These brilliant GM's that are winning all these cups had multiple elite players just fall into their laps. That's why I don't judge them on the same standard I judge Sakic. If I give a guy $1,000,000 to invest, I'm going to expect larger returns than the guy I give $1,000.

Sakic's had 4 draft classes. His oldest draft class is 22. That's about as young as you can expect depth to even begin competing for lineup spots. How can we be complaining about his drafting? There hasn't been time to form an opinion on it.

You're greatly oversimplifying things. Cups aren't bought anymore. Nobody goes out and trades their way to contention. There is no quick fix to turn a 29th place team into a contender. You've just got to draft well, be patient, and hope the hockey gods are smiling on you.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Obviously not this roster with Iginla and the ghost of Brad Stuart on it, but in a few years if Zadorov, Rantanen, Jost, and Bigras all hit their potential, maybe.

None of those guys were drafted in the middle rounds. They were gifts granted by the hockey gods because those teams just happened to pick the perfect time to suck. These brilliant GM's that are winning all these cups had multiple elite players just fall into their laps. That's why I don't judge them on the same standard I judge Sakic. If I give a guy $1,000,000 to invest, I'm going to expect larger returns than the guy I give $1,000.

Sakic's had 4 draft classes. His oldest draft class is 22. That's about as young as you can expect depth to even begin competing for lineup spots. How can we be complaining about his drafting? There hasn't been time to form an opinion on it.

You're greatly oversimplifying things. Cups aren't bought anymore. Nobody goes out and trades their way to contention. There is no quick fix to turn a 29th place team into a contender. You've just got to draft well, be patient, and hope the hockey gods are smiling on you.

Who said anything bout buying a cup? I sure didn't.

Cups are won a variety of ways. Recently teams have drafted a couple great players, they drafted some good complimentary pieces, they traded for key missing pieces, and they "gasp" signed a free agent or two.

Are Duchene, Landeskog, and MacKinnon's the Avs version of Kane, Toews, and Keith or Crosby, Malkin, and Letang? Anything is possible but so far not so much.

Who drafted Bleakley?

 

[Ararana]

This thread should have been renamed Joe & Co.

Just saying

 

[tucker3434]

Who said anything bout buying a cup? I sure didn't.

Cups are won a variety of ways. Recently teams have drafted a couple great players, they drafted some good complimentary pieces, they traded for key missing pieces, and they "gasp" signed a free agent or two.

Are Duchene, Landeskog, and MacKinnon's the Avs version of Kane, Toews, and Keith or Crosby, Malkin, and Letang? Anything is possible but so far not so much.

Who drafted Bleakley?

If you're saying Sakic should have built a winner in the 3 years since he inherited a 29th place team, you typically aren't implying that he should have done it through the draft.

No, probably not. MacKinnon could be somewhat close but we definitely won't have a #2 like Malkin or Toews. But what do you suggest a GM does about that? Guys like Malkin and Toews aren't exactly available. I'm not going to criticize a guy because he hasn't done the impossible.

Yeah, they missed on Bleackley. It would have been nice to have a McCann or Pastrnak instead. But it looks like they hit on Bigras. And I assume the amateur scouts are the reason Compher was thrown in on the ROR deal. I know Rantanen was a high pick, but his stock has done nothing but climb since the draft. Nobody gets them all right.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Also would have been nice to have the coach that's no longer here not dictate feelings on certain draft picks too, just saying.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Also would have been nice to have the coach that's no longer here not dictate feelings on certain draft picks too, just saying.

Sure, I would guess Roy had some influence on what players were drafted however from the sounds and looks of it not as much as he'd have liked.

 

[Freudian]

Sure, I would guess Roy had some influence on what players were drafted however from the sounds and looks of it not as much as he'd have liked.

It's possible they used the personal experience of Roy/Torigny/Duhamel when drafting initially but with the latter two gone and Roy being three years removed from the QMJHL he couldn't really offer much insight.

In 2014 they completely changed drafting philosophy and that may have been Roy behind that. Since that draft turned out to be bad for the team, that might have diminished his voice going forward.

Here's what Pracey said after the 2014 draft and it's obvious it's not his plan, because it's a very un-Pracey way to approach things.

"We did look at need; we did take into account the depth chart, and certainly some attributes as well. We wanted to get bigger, that was something of a goal of ours. We also wanted to address the right side on our depth chart. Conner Bleackley plays all positions up front, but he is capable of playing the wing on the right side, which he did plenty of times last season. As a right shot, Kyle Wood is a right shot defenseman, Nick Magyar is a right-shot winger, Anton Lindholm is a left-shot defenseman but he plays on the right side. Clearly, we had some planning and target players in terms of that and that was part of the process."

 

[JLo217]

It's possible they used the personal experience of Roy/Torigny/Duhamel when drafting initially but with the latter two gone and Roy being three years removed from the QMJHL he couldn't really offer much insight.

In 2014 they completely changed drafting philosophy and that may have been Roy behind that. Since that draft turned out to be bad for the team, that might have diminished his voice going forward.

Here's what Pracey said after the 2014 draft and it's obvious it's not his plan, because it's a very un-Pracey way to approach things.

"We did look at need; we did take into account the depth chart, and certainly some attributes as well. We wanted to get bigger, that was something of a goal of ours. We also wanted to address the right side on our depth chart. Conner Bleackley plays all positions up front, but he is capable of playing the wing on the right side, which he did plenty of times last season. As a right shot, Kyle Wood is a right shot defenseman, Nick Magyar is a right-shot winger, Anton Lindholm is a left-shot defenseman but he plays on the right side. Clearly, we had some planning and target players in terms of that and that was part of the process."

It says a lot that the only players left from that draft in the org are Nantel and Lindholm... and that draft was only two years ago.

 

[Pokecheque]

It might be popular to say that Roy couldn't adapt his schemes on these boards but it isn't all that accurate.

The Avs ran a man on man defensive zone coverage a couple years ago and because the Avs defense was overmatched skill-wise he changed the scheme to a zone/1-2-2 defensive zone coverage. This was an obvious major change in scheme in the middle of the year based on what was happening in the games.

During Roy's 1st year they were a little successful on the power play when Holden camped on the back door and got fed with passes for tap ins. It happened more than once or twice and the league, as you say, made an adjustment. The Avs changed their O-zone setup on the power play to an Iginla one timer instead of Holden tap in. You may not like Iginla for a one timer as a PP scheme but it was an adjustment and Iginla did score a number of one timer PP goals.

Those are only two significant adjustments off the top of my head that were made based on results, or lack thereof. The Avs made some adjustments during the last couple years for sure. You may not like the adjustments, and you may not like the results (who does), but to say no adjustments were made, or Roy doesn't have a scheme, is simply not true.

I don't think anyone said he didn't have a scheme. We just said it was a bad one. And yes, he did make adjustments...and as I have said before, he was WAY too slow to make those adjustments when it was clear they weren't working. And when it came to quick in-game adjustments, well, that consisted of little more than "let's change up the lines." More often than not he was outcoached, and against a guy like Mike Babcock he was outcoached BADLY.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Roy made it clear he didn't like Bleackley, that's my point. Other things happened but he got the ball rolling.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

I don't think anyone said he didn't have a scheme.

This has been said or implied around here for quite some time; typically by folks that wouldn't know the difference between a man coverage and a box and 1 coverage I suspect.

When I see someone claim Roy never changed his scheme I take that at face value and argued he changed his scheme plenty of times. You or others might change your statement and say that Roy got out-coached during some games or that you don't like his schemes and that's fine. But that is quite a bit different than stating Roy never changes his schemes.

I personally think Roy had some good moments and some bad moments, he added value in some instances and was a negative influence in other instances, he was good for the organization in some cases and bad in others. I do not think that changing Roy out for some other coach is going to magically fix all or most of the Avs problems however. They have a number of problems that permeate throughout the entire organization.

 

[Pokecheque]

This has been said or implied around here for quite some time; typically by folks that wouldn't know the difference between a man coverage and a box and 1 coverage I suspect.

When I see someone claim Roy never changed his scheme I take that at face value and argued he changed his scheme plenty of times. You or others might change your statement and say that Roy got out-coached during some games or that you don't like his schemes and that's fine. But that is quite a bit different than stating Roy never changes his schemes.

I personally think Roy had some good moments and some bad moments, he added value in some instances and was a negative influence in other instances, he was good for the organization in some cases and bad in others. I do not think that changing Roy out for some other coach is going to magically fix all or most of the Avs problems however. They have a number of problems that permeate throughout the entire organization.

I honestly don't believe anyone here thinks the Avs are now going to magically be a contender, even if the coach ends up being great. But a coach who has a better understanding of systems, player utilization, and at least has a more open mind to analytics will likely be more successful. But way too much will have to go right for the Avs to be vying for a playoff run at season's end, no doubt.

Where I think some may be getting a bit overzealous in their revisionist history (and I'm not even sure it's anyone on these boards) is anyone trying to discredit Roy for any successes the club has had. He and Sakic were handed a very tough situation and I think they have both done a remarkable job behind the scenes. Not just in personnel matters but in overturning a very toxic, insular culture in the Avs organization.

As far as changing the scheme, some, including Roy himself, said he changed it way too much. Roy was saying he was going to stick to his guns more this upcoming season prior to his departure, but my argument is that if he felt the need to make so many tweaks and changes, maybe the thing to do would have been to scrap the fundamental system since that might have been what the problem was.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's tough and it's probably going to take a while to sort through because for the most part things have been viewed through the "Roykic" lense even though maybe that shouldn't have been the case but there really hasn't been much consideration for which decisions or influences each is responsible for. And there probably is going to be a tendency to blame Roy for the bad things and give credit to Sakic for the good things or Roy for the win now moves and Sakic for building the future moves. We'll never know but that won't stop us from trying to debate it. I think MacFarland has had a lot of influence too so that muddies the waters even further.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

I honestly don't believe anyone here thinks the Avs are now going to magically be a contender, even if the coach ends up being great. But a coach who has a better understanding of systems, player utilization, and at least has a more open mind to analytics will likely be more successful. But way too much will have to go right for the Avs to be vying for a playoff run at season's end, no doubt.

Where I think some may be getting a bit overzealous in their revisionist history (and I'm not even sure it's anyone on these boards) is anyone trying to discredit Roy for any successes the club has had. He and Sakic were handed a very tough situation and I think they have both done a remarkable job behind the scenes. Not just in personnel matters but in overturning a very toxic, insular culture in the Avs organization.

As far as changing the scheme, some, including Roy himself, said he changed it way too much. Roy was saying he was going to stick to his guns more this upcoming season prior to his departure, but my argument is that if he felt the need to make so many tweaks and changes, maybe the thing to do would have been to scrap the fundamental system since that might have been what the problem was.

There's been a number of people clamoring for Roy's head for quite a while now and I believe a number of those people do believe the Avs are going to become a contender now that Roy is gone.

The rest of your post I agree with though.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

It's tough and it's probably going to take a while to sort through because for the most part things have been viewed through the "Roykic" lense even though maybe that shouldn't have been the case but there really hasn't been much consideration for which decisions or influences each is responsible for. And there probably is going to be a tendency to blame Roy for the bad things and give credit to Sakic for the good things or Roy for the win now moves and Sakic for building the future moves. We'll never know but that won't stop us from trying to debate it. I think MacFarland has had a lot of influence too so that muddies the waters even further.

I agree, separating Roy from Sakic, Sakic from Roy, given the lack of facts that most fans have available to them is damn near impossible. I also agree that Roy will be the scapegoat for a number of the problems because he's gone and is the easy target.

I actually hope Roy was the problem for all that ails the Avs. Because if he was then they should be fixable now that he's gone. Unfortunately, I don't think that will be the case.

 

[tigervixxxen]

There's been a number of people clamoring for Roy's head for quite a while now and I believe a number of those people do believe the Avs are going to become a contender now that Roy is gone.

The rest of your post I agree with though.

That's more the outside people, national media and folks on the main board who feel like Roy was holding us back significantly. I don't think it's as a strong opinion here. Maybe those that really didn't like him as a coach but I don't think there's too many that don't think there also needs to be the roster improving/maturing to go along with it. Then you have the local media on the other end calling it the darkest day and having a legend quit on the team means it has no direction again.

 

[Foppa2118]

Roy made it clear he didn't like Bleackley, that's my point. Other things happened but he got the ball rolling.

Roy didn't have anything to do with Arizona letting him him go back into the draft, and the other teams that passed on him rounds 1-4 though.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Roy didn't have anything to do with Arizona letting him him go back into the draft, and the other teams that passed on him rounds 1-4 though.

You know he's signed now, right? But I'm not getting suckered into going down this road.

 

[Foppa2118]

You know he's signed now, right? But I'm not getting suckered into going down this road.

Not trying to sucker you. Just commenting on the post you made on the subject.

 

[5280]

After all of this fallout, I have decided I am more excited about this team than I have been since the first season Roy was the coach. I have always thought Sakic would make a good GM and now we are going to find out.

 

[LieutenantDangle]

After all of this fallout, I have decided I am more excited about this team than I have been since the first season Roy was the coach. I have always thought Sakic would make a good GM and now we are going to find out.

here, here!!

excited to see our young guys develop and see what they're made of

 

[5280]

Really excited for this team now. I think Sakic got his guy. Let's kick some ass.