News Article: Jimmy Howard extension coming (Maybe/Maybe not)

[kliq]

Is there a precedent for someone re-signing at a discount?

Quincey didn’t. Green didn’t. Helm didn’t. Vanek is making more than the first time he was here.

I can’t think of one, really.

As much as I hate the contract and was not a fan of it, I remember tweets at the time saying helm signed at a slight discount. I think mekenzie or Friedman or someone like that reported it. The other is Nielsen, as I remember their were reports out of NY that the NYI offered more. I don’t know how reliable the reports were though as it was a local report.

Doesn’t make either contract good, but those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head if we are talking the last few years.

 

[ShelbyZ]

When you look at the numbers, Howard and Bernier could actually make a pretty good tandem given how they've performed before and after New Years day the past 3 seasons...

Bernier is historically terrible to start the year in the past three seasons before heating up to end the year, and typically Howard starts the year decent to hot and then cools down or gets hurt and doesn't get back to form to finish the year.

SV% Before January 1st the past 3 seasons:

Bernier- .889, .897, .898
Howard- .91, .934, .913

SV% January 1st to the end of the season the past 3 seasons:

Bernier- .92, .926, .922
Howard- .903, .916, .906

The trend appears to be continuing this season.

 

[Dotter]

Is there a precedent for someone re-signing at a discount?

Quincey didn’t. Green didn’t. Helm didn’t. Vanek is making more than the first time he was here.

I can’t think of one, really.

Just shows people need an incentive to play here. Last thing we need is our kids not wanting to play here which could cause insubordination in the locker room that spreads like cancer.... because tanking too hard.


This season is playing out exactly like it should. Except maybe too many wins, but I guess that is good for the kids to taste some NHL victory to keep them wanting more.

 

[Syckle78]

Cbus will pay him, he won't sign there. Playing the last three Stanley Cup Champs in the first round isn't the easiest draw either in terms of the guy cannot win...

From what I understand that's not really the case. It isn't a panarin situation where he wants to play somewhere specific. It's not the matchups It's that he's not the same in the playoffs as the regular season. I understand when forward product drops when things tighten up in playoff games but when a goalie doesn't show up its a huge red flag and its not like he's youngster.

 

[Reddwit]

Who above the age of 35 received more money than they were worth or as much as they received for the previous contract?

The only precedent I can get behind is the whole "Holland is too loyal" deal. Even then I don't see Howard making the same amount of money for his next contract.

There's no way Howard makes the same amount of money for his next contract. He doesn't have that type of clout as a UFA.

But to answer your question (last 10 years):
- Brad Richards
- Todd Bertuzzi (twice)
- Mikael Samuelsson
- Lidstrom
- Lang
- Chelios
- Osgood
- Hasek (technically)

 

[Reddwit]

It would make sense to have negotiation in November if Holland wants to get a clearer picture of where this standscome trade deadline. I mean, if the two parties aren't on the same page now, the easy solution would be to shop Howard. If they're on the same page, then sign him.Generally, I agree, don't sign him just yet.

So you think its appropriate to judge a 34 year-old players' value for next year based on what he's doing 11 months prior to that, let alone a player who is "statistically" below average at his position while also being injury prone?

 

[Frk It]

As much as I hate the contract and was not a fan of it, I remember tweets at the time saying helm signed at a slight discount. I think mekenzie or Friedman or someone like that reported it. The other is Nielsen, as I remember their were reports out of NY that the NYI offered more. I don’t know how reliable the reports were though as it was a local report.

Doesn’t make either contract good, but those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head if we are talking the last few years.

I don’t think anyone said that about Helm. Helm’s signing was a rare case where almost all of us agreed on something, which was that deal stunk.

Also when I said “discount”, I was moreso just talking about someone on our team making less than they were making prior.

 

[GMR]

Surprisingly, no one. Howard has played NHL minutes in 13 consecutive seasons for the Wings, 10 as a regular on the NHL roster.

As far as being a "regular" on the NHL roster you have Osgoods 1st tenure and Greg Stefan at 8. For seasons with NHL minutes, Stefan is at 9.

Greg Stefan made NHL appearances for the team in 9 consecutive seasons, and was a regular for 8. Osgood had an 8 season tenure in his first run with the Wings, Sawchuks 2nd tenure was 7 seasons, Jim Rutherford has a roughly 7 season tenure between ta mid-season trade to Detroit and then a mid-season trade out of Detroit,

That's what I was thinking too. Someone mentioned Sawchuk, but he played for other teams in between his Detroit stints.

 

[Invictus12]

So you think its appropriate to judge a 34 year-old players' value for next year based on what he's doing 11 months prior to that, let alone a player who is "statistically" below average at his position while also being injury prone?

Yeah, people beenaking claims that he's be low average even when he was posting .920 save percentage. Outside of injuries, Howard is a good goalie and mostly stable.... Outside of that, you might want to re-read... It's not about judging his value as more to judge where he stands on his contactual demands and whether two parties see eye to eye. However, to some degree, yes. You want to see how he plays out the rest of the season and can he be healthy as well before you pull the trigger.

 

[Invictus12]

I don’t think anyone said that about Helm. Helm’s signing was a rare case where almost all of us agreed on something, which was that deal stunk.

Also when I said “discount”, I was moreso just talking about making less than they were making prior.

When it comes to Helm, if you actually break down the concerns, complaining about the contract was more of a smoke screen to the worries that he was taking a spot away from Athanasiou more than anything else.

 

[Frk It]

When it comes to Helm, if you actually break down the concerns, complaining about the contract was more of a smoke screen to the worries that he was taking a spot away from Athanasiou more than anything else.

I’d have to look, but from what I remember the consensus was that deal was a dud. Thought I even remember some folks who don’t usually criticize deals much calling that one bad.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

When it comes to Helm, if you actually break down the concerns, complaining about the contract was more of a smoke screen to the worries that he was taking a spot away from Athanasiou more than anything else.

Not from me.

 

[Reddwit]

Yeah, people beenaking claims that he's be low average even when he was posting .920 save percentage. Outside of injuries, Howard is a good goalie and mostly stable.... Outside of that, you might want to re-read... It's not about judging his value as more to judge where he stands on his contactual demands and whether two parties see eye to eye. However, to some degree, yes. You want to see how he plays out the rest of the season and can he be healthy as well before you pull the trigger.

Sorry, but you're making baseless claims here about how good he is. If you want to talk about "reading," I suggest you hit up NHL.com. The website (and app) sucks, but the stats section is great.

Howard has played 60, 26, and 37 games the past 3 years. The top 30-31 goalies the past 3 years have played 40.3 games, so by that measure, Howie doesn't even have starter stats in 2/3 past seasons. But if you counted the games he's played in 3 of the past 4 years, excluding the year where he only played 26, he's averaging 26th and 27th in SV% and GAA respectively.

Alternatively, with what is a pretty interesting factoid in general, you could just look at his average SV%/GAA for his past 3 seasons worth of games - 123 - which would include the best stats of his career. Among goalies who have played at least 123 games (in other words, all goalies averaging at least 41 games per season in the past 3 years), he ranks 29th in SV% and 24th in GAA, out of 33.

Lastly, he's posted a .920 sv% average over 41% of his seasons, and just 7% of those games came in post-Lidstrom years.

I don't know why this fan base is so obsessed with defending the retention and/or overpayment of average/slightly above average players just because they donned the Winged Wheel for millennia.

 

[Reddwit]

I’d have to look, but from what I remember the consensus was that deal was a dud. Thought I even remember some folks who don’t usually criticize deals much calling that one bad.

Not from me.

Me either. And to back up Frk, that was one of the few times I remember what was probably the closest you could come to consensus on HF as well.

 

[kliq]

I don’t think anyone said that about Helm. Helm’s signing was a rare case where almost all of us agreed on something, which was that deal stunk.

Also when I said “discount”, I was moreso just talking about someone on our team making less than they were making prior.

No they did, I can find the links tweets later if you like. Agreed the deal still stunk though.
As for the bold, ya I cant think of any.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That lack of value also translated into actual success on the ice. It would have been absolutely better to have hit the homerun on one of the latter picks but its hardly something to hold management accountable for when the priority was simply to win and rightfully so at the time.

I wasn't talking about late rounds.

I was saying the 1sts we kept... we did less than nothing with.

The 2nds we kept, we did little with.
Detroit Red Wings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Seriously look at these drafts.

That lack of value they got had jack**** to do with success on the ice and everything to do with their scouting staff being out to lunch on a bunch of guys and a couple others unexpectedly not growing and in the case of Igor Grigorenko getting into a nasty car wreck.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Howard has been a member of this team for 14 years. We go through this almost every year: Howard plays great for a stretch of hockey or two and everyone gets excited that this might be the year that he finally carries the team. Then he inevitably ****s the bed, gets injured, or both, all the while being one of the most bland career Red Wing starters.

This is like a hockey fan's version of Stockholm syndrome.

Unproven? He's a 30 year-old guy who has a ton of experience playing behind crappy teams in flux. The only bright light is that his best year came playing behind the 8th worst team in the NHL. He's got 300 games under his belt and his career save percentage is .914 compared to Jimmy's .915 despite Jimmy spending the first 3 years of his career playing behind a competent defense and team overall and his best season coming having played not even a 1/3 of the season.

We know who Bernier is as much as we know who Jimmy is and its not great despite the revisionist history. Could either of them could give us the benefit of a surprise career year? Sure. But as I said in my post, why the hell would we reward that in November? There is zero precedent for that happening over the course of even 30+ games for Howard behind an average-or-worse team.

Bernier has only played more than 40 games in a season twice in his NHL career. He is still basically unproven as a starting goaltender, which is why the only jobs he can get these days is in the "backup who might be able to become a starter" role.

I agree with your point overall though. Jimmy when healthy is a capable but not particularly special goaltender. And as the years wear on the cycle tends to be play well, get injured, come back playing poorly, rinse, repeat.

And there's certainly no reason to offer a contract extension now. I think the article is really just looking for something to write about and also to give Wings fans something to argue about.

 

[Winger98]

I don’t think anyone said that about Helm. Helm’s signing was a rare case where almost all of us agreed on something, which was that deal stunk.

Also when I said “discount”, I was moreso just talking about someone on our team making less than they were making prior.

Hard to ask guys to take less than they were making before unless their play had dropped, which made up the bulk of the list Reddwit put up (though it was a good list).

I'd put Kronwall's name out there, though. Yeah, he's making more than the $3m per he made on the previous deal, but when he signed this one his knees hadn't given out on him and he was still a top flight D. I don't really doubt he could have added another million or so to the yearly average if he really wanted to play the market.

 

[Invictus12]

I wasn't talking about late rounds.

I was saying the 1sts we kept... we did less than nothing with.

The 2nds we kept, we did little with.
Detroit Red Wings Draft History at hockeydb.com

Seriously look at these drafts.

That lack of value they got had jack**** to do with success on the ice and everything to do with their scouting staff being out to lunch on a bunch of guys and a couple others unexpectedly not growing and in the case of Igor Grigorenko getting into a nasty car wreck.

Look at the guys picked, mostly laye in each round mind you. Kindl had skill but never translated. Smith, we could all agree has all the potential in the world and it shoemws up at times. Sheahan was very dissapointing as well. Outside of that, we never really had early picks and give the players we got, is pretty much what you'd expect. Certainly, it could have been better but comparatively, probably not that bad.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Look at the guys picked, mostly laye in each round mind you. Kindl had skill but never translated. Smith, we could all agree has all the potential in the world and it shoemws up at times. Sheahan was very dissapointing as well. Outside of that, we never really had early picks and give the players we got, is pretty much what you'd expect. Certainly, it could have been better but comparatively, probably not that bad.

Probably not that bad? There are 7 players in that period still in the org. The ones who left either left because they were garbage and flushed out or we got a 6th round pick back for.

The Wings got two good players, an enigma who could be the best player out of any they've taken except for Larkin (but usually is just okay), two okay players who are now overpaid to high hell, and two washouts who came back... in 7 years.

Terrible drafting is why the Wings are where they are at.

 

[Invictus12]

Sorry, but you're making baseless claims here about how good he is. If you want to talk about "reading," I suggest you hit up NHL.com. The website (and app) sucks, but the stats section is great.

Howard has played 60, 26, and 37 games the past 3 years. The top 30-31 goalies the past 3 years have played 40.3 games, so by that measure, Howie doesn't even have starter stats in 2/3 past seasons. But if you counted the games he's played in 3 of the past 4 years, excluding the year where he only played 26, he's averaging 26th and 27th in SV% and GAA respectively.

Alternatively, with what is a pretty interesting factoid in general, you could just look at his average SV%/GAA for his past 3 seasons worth of games - 123 - which would include the best stats of his career. Among goalies who have played at least 123 games (in other words, all goalies averaging at least 41 games per season in the past 3 years), he ranks 29th in SV% and 24th in GAA, out of 33.

Lastly, he's posted a .920 sv% average over 41% of his seasons, and just 7% of those games came in post-Lidstrom years.

I don't know why this fan base is so obsessed with defending the retention and/or overpayment of average/slightly above average players just because they donned the Winged Wheel for millennia.

So its easier to be a good player on a better team? Thanks! Last 3 seasons he also battled injuries on and off and played on a team you, yourself will be the first to point, that was bad. On the other hand, when you actually watch him play, there are hardly any goals you can place blame on Howard and thats about all. Injuries are a real concern. His ability outside of that, except for the year he couldn't make a shootout save if his life dependened on it, he was never bad. Pretty good infact. But, folks always need a scapegoat because this way, they dont have to use their brain. Oh and once more, , my original point was in the timing of negotiations...

 

[Tatar Shots]

I'm in favor of a 2 year stop gap deal. We are not going to find someone close to as reliable as Howard on a short term deal.

NHL.com - Stats

I think this link is good for some people to look at who think Howard is so replaceable. Since he started in the 09-10 season he ranks 18th in Save% amongst goalies with more than 300 games. 15th amongst goalies with >400 games.

 

[Invictus12]

I’d have to look, but from what I remember the consensus was that deal was a dud. Thought I even remember some folks who don’t usually criticize deals much calling that one bad.

There was quite a split but the main concern was that we had too many forwards and they were blocking out the kids. Abdelkader saw a huge backlash but Glenny and Helm,many agreed were about making market value. Though, very few liked the length of the deals.

 

[Invictus12]

Not from me.

I was actually one of the peopl who thought it was time to move on from Helm. His contact itself didn't bother me that much..

 

[Winger98]

I was actually one of the peopl who thought it was time to move on from Helm. His contact itself didn't bother me that much..

Same. it wasn't the contract itself but that he got one at all. Really wonder what we could have gotten from him at the deadline instead.