News Article: Jimmy Howard extension coming (Maybe/Maybe not)

[The Zetterberg Era]

I still want to discuss who was better between Greg Stefan and Glen Hanlon dammit!!

(probably not many old enough here to get that reference, but those were the goalie wars when I was a young fan. I was team Hanlon)

Was it Stefan that wound up at Detroit Receiving because of the cup malfunction? Trying remember which 80s goalie that was.

 

[jkutswings]

I had thought Stefan had back problems. Can't remember which one had the "malfunction".

Stefan, Hanlon, Cheveldae, Essensa...a veritable who's who of, "How Not to Backstop in the NHL". (coming soon to a theatre near you)

 

[TatarTangle]

Play me in NHLPA 94 if you think Essensa and Cheveldae were bad. I dare you.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Was it Stefan that wound up at Detroit Receiving because of the cup malfunction? Trying remember which 80s goalie that was.

I seem to remember Hanlon taking a shot to the nards and them sliding him off the ice as he remained in the fetal position.

It wouldn't have surprised me if he ended up at Receiving after that.

 

[Winger98]

I seem to remember Hanlon taking a shot to the nards and them sliding him off the ice as he remained in the fetal position.

It wouldn't have surprised me if he ended up at Receiving after that.

Hanlon learned what it took a chubby kid and some moxy to teach the Wolfman.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Any body else still mad they gave up on Kevin Hodson and Norm Maracle so fast?

Peter Ing
Vincent Riendeau.

The real forgotten gems.

Man, this reminds me that I wanted Felix Potvin in Detroit so bad.

 

[Winger98]

Peter Ing
Vincent Riendeau.

The real forgotten gems.

Man, this reminds me that I wanted Felix Potvin in Detroit so bad.

Didn't we have Alan Bester for part of a season? I remember it seeming like he always had monster games against the Wings, was really hyped when the Wings got him, then he was awful.

 

[kliq]

I still want to discuss who was better between Greg Stefan and Glen Hanlon dammit!!

(probably not many old enough here to get that reference, but those were the goalie wars when I was a young fan. I was team Hanlon)

I remember Hanlon, not Stefan. I remember there was a rumor going around school then Hanlon had one testicle because one was ruptured by an Al Iafrate slap shot lol. Still to this day I have no clue if that was true.

 

[kliq]

He's been way less than an average starting goalie.
He's been below average in save percentage.
But that includes all the backups and emergency callups.
He has consistently ranked 24th and below for every year but one in his contract.

It was either a dumb contract by Holland, or Howard underperformed, or a little of both.

Sorry but I disagree, and I believe what I have already said (as well as everyone who disagrees with you) proves why. I dont feel like going in circles, and you seem to be stuck on Save Percentage while ignoring context.

 

[Oddbob]

I still want to discuss who was better between Greg Stefan and Glen Hanlon dammit!!

(probably not many old enough here to get that reference, but those were the goalie wars when I was a young fan. I was team Hanlon)

I really want to get to the bottom of whether Jan Mursak got a fair shake! I also have a suspicion that Hudler may have been held in the minors too long.

 

[MBH]

Sorry but I disagree, and I believe what I have already said (as well as everyone who disagrees with you) proves why. I dont feel like going in circles, and you seem to be stuck on Save Percentage while ignoring context.

That's fine. Think your hometown goalie is average even though facts say otherwise.
Opinions don't have to be based on facts, Kliq. They can be based on warm fuzzies, too.
Like, I have no factual reason to like Tyutyayev... but I do.
You've chosen to ignore a six year run of poor performances. Six years that dovetail perfectly with his contract.
He went from .923 to .910 in his first year of the contract and basically never left.

 

[kliq]

That's fine. Think your hometown goalie is average even though facts say otherwise.
Opinions don't have to be based on facts, Kliq. They can be based on warm fuzzies, too.
Like, I have no factual reason to like Tyutyayev... but I do.
You've chosen to ignore a six year run of poor performances. Six years that dovetail perfectly with his contract.
He went from .923 to .910 in his first year of the contract and basically never left.

I presented facts, you dismissed them and keep resorting to save %. Multiple posters have proven your argument wrong using a variety of arguments, yet you just keep repeating the same thing. @Henkka did a pretty good job a page on page 23.

Also, I find it funny that you are insinuating that people calling Howard "average" are calling him that because they are homers. I dont think that mediocrity has ever been an argument that "homers" point to. The only real compliment that I have made towards Howard in this debate is that he has gotten better as he got older, which ironically you brought up.

You say that my opinions are not based on facts and that I am basing my arguments on "warm fuzzies", however you can see below that I bring up many different points.

But do you see how using Save Percentage in a bubble is a problem? Goalies with bad defenses in front of them are going to play worse because the shots they get are going to be facing are much harder to stop.

Look at Mrazek, with Detroit's D I believe he was dead last in both Save % and GAA, then on Carolina he completely turned it around. Now I do believe Mrazek had something to prove at that point, and that being with a new coaching staff likely helped, but having a top D in front of him was the most crucial cause of his recent success. There is a reason why Mcelhinney a career backup had similar numbers. Same goes for both Griess and Lehner in NY, as they to played behind a great D.

You put Howard on the Bruins, Lightning, Preds etc. over the past 7 years, and I guarantee his Save % rises significantly and he is around 8-12 in Save %.

I would actually argue that being 20th while playing on the Wings over the last 6 years who are a 25 - 31 ranked D (leaning closer to 31 then 25) is actually quite impressive, and that doesn't even take into consideration his injuries.

In terms of variance, if you take out 2016/17, it was 0.4% in a 5 year range, he pretty much stayed the same as the team got worse (and I assume the D as well). This is likely an indication that Howard has gotten better as he has gotten older. I never really thought of that, but that's a good point.

If a goalies GAA is going up, but their Save % is improving, that is typically a sign that their team D is getting worse (ie. more shots/scoring chances against per game) which is exactly what my point is. Though changes of -.004, -.005, .007 etc are essentially no change at all.

As far as the contract goes, its an average contract for an average starting goalie. If you want to argue that it's a tad high, I won't disagree. If you are saying he was way overpaid, I just don't buy it.

As far as teams trading for Howard, the market for goaltenders is very very unique, you cant compare it to any other position as it's very dependent on salary cap situation for a variety of reasons. I really dont feel like getting into this as I feel like its obvious.

You on the other hand just talk about Save % over and over and over again.

That's not what happened though.
Howard's ranking has actually improved as the team got worse.

Season Save% Ranking (among goalies with 35 games played)
2013-14 .910 28th - Playoff team.
2014-15 .910 30th - Playoff team.
2015-16 .906 33rd - Playoff team
2016-17 .927 - 2nd - Not a playoff team
2017-18 .910 24th - Not a playoff team
2018-19 .909 25th - Not a playoff team

So Howard's save percentage ranking has improved as Detroit's gotten worse.
So I'm not so sure his save percentage ranking gets better on a good team, where there's pressure to win.

As for Mrazek, when he left Detroit:
His numbers were:
2.89 and .910
Howard's numbers that year:
2.85 and .910

One guy had the benefit of playing regularly, getting into a groove and having the confidence of his coach.
One guy didn't.

Over the last six years.
Mrazek: .911 2.61
Howard: .911 2.71

It's possible he's gotten better. After getting worse.
The problem is, when he signed the contract, he was at .920 something.
He immediately dropped to .910 and below.

Let's put his 12-13 season in here, just to show that drop.

2012-13 .923 5th - Playoff team. NHL: .912 Diff: + .012
---contract signed---
2013-14 .910 28th - Playoff team. NHL .914 Diff: - .004
2014-15 .910 30th - Playoff team. NHL .915 Diff: - .005
2015-16 .906 33rd - Playoff team. NHL .913 Diff: -.007
2016-17 .927 - 2nd - Not a playoff team. NHL .913 Diff. + .014
2017-18 .910 24th - Not a playoff team. NHL .912 Diff: -.002
2018-19 .909 25th - Not a playoff team. NHL .910 Diff. -001

Howard's save percentage is getting closer to the average as the team gets worse.
Is he getting better? Perhaps. His GAA wouldn't agree.

Anyway, going back to when I jumped in here.
The point is that Howard has drastically underperformed in this contact.
Now that the pressure's off and this team sucks, he seems to have played a bit better, compared to NHL averages.

I'm not sure why any of this is controversial. It's well known that when Holland did try to trade Holland, he found no takers, because GMs didn't think he was worth his contract.

He's been way less than an average starting goalie.
He's been below average in save percentage.
But that includes all the backups and emergency callups.
He has consistently ranked 24th and below for every year but one in his contract.

It was either a dumb contract by Holland, or Howard underperformed, or a little of both.

With all that said, if you are Jonas....touche.

 

[jkutswings]

Play me in NHLPA 94 if you think Essensa and Cheveldae were bad. I dare you.

94 was my jam! My brother and I spent countless hours playing Habs vs Rangers. For whatever reason, Vanbiesbrouck was the default NYR starter over Richter, and it was a running joke whether I could score on Beezer before my brother remembered to swap goalies.

Beware the wrap around. Good times.

 

[odin1981]

LMFAO Detroit fans and goalie argument's are so Hossa vs Franzen meta .

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

94 was my jam! My brother and I spent countless hours playing Habs vs Rangers. For whatever reason, Vanbiesbrouck was the default NYR starter over Richter, and it was a running joke whether I could score on Beezer before my brother remembered to swap goalies.

Beware the wrap around. Good times.

I'm gonna make Gretzky's head bleed for superfan 99 over here.

 

[MBH]

I presented facts, you dismissed them and keep resorting to save %. Multiple posters have proven your argument wrong using a variety of arguments, yet you just keep repeating the same thing. @Henkka did a pretty good job a page on page 23.

Also, I find it funny that you are insinuating that people calling Howard "average" are calling him that because they are homers. I dont think that mediocrity has ever been an argument that "homers" point to. The only real compliment that I have made towards Howard in this debate is that he has gotten better as he got older, which ironically you brought up.

You say that my opinions are not based on facts and that I am basing my arguments on "warm fuzzies", however you can see below that I bring up many different points.







You on the other hand just talk about Save % over and over and over again.

So, I've covered save percentage well.

Do you want to use Goals against average?
13-14 - 25th
14-15 - 23rd
15-16 - 34th
16-17 - 3rd (had to reduce to 26 games)
17-18- 25th
18-19 - 32nd

There are the two most commonly used goaltending stats.
Over those six years, among goalies with 100 games or more.
Howard is 32nd in save percentage.
Howard is 25th in GAA.

I only used save percentage because i thought it was more fair to Howard fans.

 

[jkutswings]

I'm gonna make Gretzky's head bleed for superfan 99 over here.

You're so money and you don't even know it.

 

[kliq]

So, I've covered save percentage well.

Do you want to use Goals against average?
13-14 - 25th
14-15 - 23rd
15-16 - 34th
16-17 - 3rd (had to reduce to 26 games)
17-18- 25th
18-19 - 32nd

There are the two most commonly used goaltending stats.
Over those six years, among goalies with 100 games or more.
Howard is 32nd in save percentage.
Howard is 25th in GAA.

I only used save percentage because i thought it was more fair to Howard fans.

When comparing goaltenders, save % and GAA are only applicable if team D is relatively close. When you have a goaltender on a team with a horrible D, those stats are always going to suffer.

Robin Lehner is the perfect example of this, 3.01 GAA and 90.9 Save % on Buffalo, but a 2.13 GAA , and 93% Save % on NYI.

If you choose to ignore team D, then there is nothing to discuss.

 

[MBH]

When comparing goaltenders, save % and GAA are only applicable if team D is relatively close. When you have a goaltender on a team with a horrible D, those stats are always going to suffer.

Robin Lehner is the perfect example of this, 3.01 GAA and 90.9 Save % on Buffalo, but a 2.13 GAA , and 93% Save % on NYI.

If you choose to ignore team D, then there is nothing to discuss.

Sorry man. Doesn't wash.
When Detroit was still a playoff team, his GAA and SVpct were in the mid to late 20s to the 30s.

 

[kliq]

Sorry man. Doesn't wash.
When Detroit was still a playoff team, his GAA and SVpct were in the mid to late 20s to the 30s.

Ya it does, you're just ignoring reality because you don't like Howard, which is fine, to each their own.
Even when they were a playoff team, this D was bad.

Again, I'm not saying Howard was great, he was average. Sorry that offends you.

 

[MBH]

Ya it does, you're just ignoring reality because you don't like Howard, which is fine, to each their own.
Even when they were a playoff team, this D was bad.

Again, I'm not saying Howard was great, he was average. Sorry that offends you.

Ignoring reality?
I post facts.
You say the facts don't matter, because goalies often struggle on bad teams.
I point to the three years in which Detroit was a playoff team, pointing out that his numbers were below average then.
You say I'm ignoring reality.

How far in denial are you prepared to go, man?

Average? He's had one good year in six. And that year, injuries denied him the chance to have his annual 2nd half slump.

Besides. On what planet is "an average goalie" worth 6yearsx5.2M

 

[kliq]

Ignoring reality?
I post facts.
You say the facts don't matter, because goalies often struggle on bad teams.
I point to the three years in which Detroit was a playoff team, pointing out that his numbers were below average then.
You say I'm ignoring reality.

How far in denial are you prepared to go, man?

Average? He's had one good year in six. And that year, injuries denied him the chance to have his annual 2nd half slump.

Besides. On what planet is "an average goalie" worth 6yearsx5.2M

@Henkka said it best

You can judge Jimmy Howard many ways. If we go to Evolving-hockey and use Goals above replacement stats for goaltenders, Howard is ranked 15th best from last 3 seasons combined. Slightly better than Lundqvist and Rask, slighty worse than Bishop and Crawford. But on the same range.

Mrazek is ranked 40th.

If we use WAR, Howard is also 15th ranked. Mrazek is 42nd.
IF we use that GAA, Howard is +9.6 at 19th best, Mrazek is -15.2 at 45th.

Howard's old salary was the 14th highest, so if he was ~15th best with 14th highest caphit, I think his contract was pretty much spot on.

His new contract is 25th highest, so maybe that's now more of a bargain.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

LMFAO Detroit fans and goalie argument's are so Hossa vs Franzen meta .

Do you realize what you have.....

Oh my God people, progress. That or we hate this Howard debate enough people have allowed the biggest thread derailing topic of the last decade to slip right though.

 

[MBH]

@Henkka said it best

WAR? for NHL goalies? When did anyone ever cite this as a different stat.
For which year? For six years?
For one year?
Compared to Mrazek? Which year? Because Mrazek has had good years and bad years in these six years.

Face it, Kliq.
You're grasping at straws.
Howard has been a bottom bottom 10, bottom 5 or even backup caliber goalie for most of his contract.

In no f***ing reality is that worth 6 years x $5.2M

 

[obey86]

Howard is a solid goalie when healthy. Problem is, every year he gets injured and then after returning from his injury he plays like dump.