Jim Coleman Conference Semi Finals - Chicago Cougars (2) vs Orillia Terriers (3)

[ImporterExporter]

Chicago Cougars (2)


Coach: Tommy Gorman

Syd Howe - Anze Kopitar (A) - Mike Bossy
Alex Tanguay - Ryan Getzlaf (A) - Larry Aurie
Patrick Sharp - Red Sullivan - John MacLean
Brenden Morrow - Brian Skrudland - Ryan Callahan

Lionel Conacher - King Clancy (C)
Rod Seiling - John Carlson
Joe Watson - Adrian Aucoin

Tom Barrasso
John Ross Roach

Spares: Viktor Shalimov (RW), Kevin Bieksa (D), Morgan Rielly (D)

PP1
Howe - Getzlaf - Bossy
Carlson - Clancy

PP2
Tanguay - Kopitar - MacLean
Aucoin - Sharp

PK1
Kopitar - Skrudland
Seiling - Conacher

PK2
Sullivan - Aurie
Watson - Clancy/Carlson

Extra PK F: Callahan, Sharp, Howe (also can play D)

This team plays a heavy forechecking system with strong forecheckers abundant throughout the lineup. Most of the time the 1st line will go power vs. power.

Estimated Ice Time

Forwards
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
S. Howe	13	4		17
A. Kopitar	14	2	4	20
M. Bossy	14	5		19
A. Tanguay	12	3		15
R. Getzlaf	13	5		18
L. Aurie	13		3	16
P. Sharp	10	3		13
R. Sullivan	11		3	14
J. MacLean	10	2		12
B. Morrow	11			11
B. Skrudland	8		4	12
R. Callahan	9			9
TOTAL	138	24	14	176

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Defense
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
L. Conacher	18		4	22
K. Clancy	18	4	2	24
R. Seiling	16		4	20
J. Carlson	16	4	1	21
J. Watson	12		3	15
A. Aucoin	12	3		15
TOTAL	92	11	14	117

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

VS

'

Orillia Terriers (3)


Barry Trotz

Dean Prentice - Jonathan Toews "C" - Gordie Howe
Anatoli Firsov - Dave Keon "A" - Bernie Morris
Jack Marshall - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko
Camille Henry - David Krejci - Bobby Schmautz

Wade Redden - Drew Doughty
Kevin Lowe "A" - Brent Burns
Keith Yandle - Jack Portland

Johnny Bower
Glenn Resch

Spares
Walt Buswell, D
Jaroslav Jirik, LW/RW
Buddy O'Connor, C

PP1 - Camille Henry - Bernie Morris - Gordie Howe - Brent Burns - Keith Yandle
PP2 - Anatoli Firsov - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko - Drew Doughty - Wade Redden

PK1 - Dave Keon - Anatoli Firsov - Kevin Lowe - Jack Portland
PK2 - Jonathan Toews - Gordie Howe - Wade Redden - Drew Doughty​

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here's to a good series @Dreakmur!


I don't have a lot of time right now, but will start off by laying out the plan for handling Gordie Howe, for which I think Chicago is well equipped...

1. Have the top pairing of Conacher-Clancy out against the Howe line as much as possible. Lionel Conacher has the size and strength to deal with Howe in the corners.

2. Match the forward lines power vs. power, and Howe vs. Howe, with Syd Howe helping to check Gordie (Kopitar as a secondary helper). Syd Howe does not have the strength to match Gordie, but the checking forward mostly deals with Gordie in open ice, while the checking Dman will be doing the majority of the board/corner/net-front battling. Syd is a tremendous skater, strong defensive player (some quotes on defensive play below), and the accolades about his willingness to go to the tough areas suggests Syd won't be intimidated by Gordie.


"Howe, the youthful blond left wing, in addition to his scoring feats, played a great defensive game. He was all over the ice checking the rushes of the Wings and he didn’t hesitate to body check the opposing players. Twice, he set Ebbie Goodfellow, big Detroit defense man, own legally…"

Talking about Howe's forward line...
"These three have scored the greater portion of the team’s goals and in addition have been very good at aiding the defense."

"Yet, it was Sir Sydney, the all-rounder and back checker deluxe…"

​

 

[ImporterExporter]

Per @Hawkey Town 18 wishes I updated the Syd Howe bio in the OP.

Good luck gents!

 

[Dreakmur]

Here's to a good series @Dreakmur!


I don't have a lot of time right now, but will start off by laying out the plan for handling Gordie Howe, for which I think Chicago is well equipped...

1. Have the top pairing of Conacher-Clancy out against the Howe line as much as possible. Lionel Conacher has the size and strength to deal with Howe in the corners.

2. Match the forward lines power vs. power, and Howe vs. Howe, with Syd Howe helping to check Gordie (Kopitar as a secondary helper). Syd Howe does not have the strength to match Gordie, but the checking forward mostly deals with Gordie in open ice, while the checking Dman will be doing the majority of the board/corner/net-front battling. Syd is a tremendous skater, strong defensive player (some quotes on defensive play below), and the accolades about his willingness to go to the tough areas suggests Syd won't be intimidated by Gordie.


"Howe, the youthful blond left wing, in addition to his scoring feats, played a great defensive game. He was all over the ice checking the rushes of the Wings and he didn’t hesitate to body check the opposing players. Twice, he set Ebbie Goodfellow, big Detroit defense man, own legally…"

Talking about Howe's forward line...
"These three have scored the greater portion of the team’s goals and in addition have been very good at aiding the defense."

"Yet, it was Sir Sydney, the all-rounder and back checker deluxe…"

Hey bud, looking forward to a good discussion! Power on power is how I roll too. I'll crunch the numbers at another time, but I would think Howe/Kopitar is pretty similar to Prentice/Toews at ES. That leaves Howe vs. Bossy, which Orillia wins by a lot. You have Howe trying to check Howe, and I have Prentice trying to check Bossy.

Syd Howe and Dean Prentice both seem to be about the same defensively - good but not great.

Off the top of my head, it looks like the two biggest differences are your advantage at #1 defenseman and my advantages on the 2nd line and in net.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Hey bud, looking forward to a good discussion! Power on power is how I roll too. I'll crunch the numbers at another time, but I would think Howe/Kopitar is pretty similar to Prentice/Toews at ES. That leaves Howe vs. Bossy, which Orillia wins by a lot. You have Howe trying to check Howe, and I have Prentice trying to check Bossy.

I would appreciate you posting the 7yr ES numbers, I would be surprised if Prentice is on Syd Howe's level offensively (Kopitar and Toews should be about the same). Definitely expect Gordie to have a significant edge on Bossy.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Off the top of my head, it looks like the two biggest differences are your advantage at #1 defenseman and my advantages on the 2nd line and in net.

My advantage at #2 defenseman should be a big difference also.

In fact, I'd say the gap between your #1 Doughty and my #2 Conacher is smaller than the gap between Conacher and your #2 Burns (and also smaller than gap between Clancy and Doughty).

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Following up on the above, a quick comparison of Drew Doughty and Lionel Conacher...

Norris/AS Records
Doughty: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9
Conacher: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 8*
*The 2nd place finish is extremely close and tough to be certain between 2nd and 3rd place because LD/RD were voted on separately. Conacher was the 2nd team AS at LD, but the 1st AS at LD won the Hart Trophy that year. Conacher finished 2nd in Hart voting only 1 point ahead of the 1st AS at RD who finished 3rd in Hart voting. See the Conacher bio for further detail on his record.

The above records are nearly identical.


Playoffs
Both have won 2 Cups as their teams' #1 Dman and have been strong playoff performers. Conacher was awarded a retro-smythe for 1934 and either Doughty or Kopitar should've won the Smythe in 2014.

Again they seem to be very similar here.

 

[Dreakmur]

I would appreciate you posting the 7yr ES numbers, I would be surprised if Prentice is on Syd Howe's level offensively (Kopitar and Toews should be about the same). Definitely expect Gordie to have a significant edge on Bossy.

Howe worse than I thought, Kopitar better.... still ended up about even with Prentice/Toews

Syd Howe 76.9
Anze Kopitar 79.1
Mike Bossy 95.9

Dean Prentice 76.6
Jonathan Toews 78.9
Gordie Howe 121.6

 

[Dreakmur]

Following up on the above, a quick comparison of Drew Doughty and Lionel Conacher...

Norris/AS Records
Doughty: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9
Conacher: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 8*
*The 2nd place finish is extremely close and tough to be certain between 2nd and 3rd place because LD/RD were voted on separately. Conacher was the 2nd team AS at LD, but the 1st AS at LD won the Hart Trophy that year. Conacher finished 2nd in Hart voting only 1 point ahead of the 1st AS at RD who finished 3rd in Hart voting. See the Conacher bio for further detail on his record.

I can dig into this more tomorrow, but at first glance, there are two minor issues there.

1 - one of Conacher's 3s was from pre-consolidation, so it's not a true 3 until we look into it a lot more
2 - this season Doughty was voted by the players to be the 4th best defenseman

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Howe worse than I thought, Kopitar better.... still ended up about even with Prentice/Toews

Syd Howe 76.9
Anze Kopitar 79.1
Mike Bossy 95.9

Dean Prentice 76.6
Jonathan Toews 78.9
Gordie Howe 121.6

I expected Syd Howe’s score to be higher as well. His regular vs.x score of 83.9 is higher than both Kopitar (79.2) and Toews (74.3). Does this mean he’s an exceptionally good PP player or did he maybe get a lot of SH points?

 

[Dreakmur]

I expected Syd Howe’s score to be higher as well. His regular vs.x score of 83.9 is higher than both Kopitar (79.2) and Toews (74.3). Does this mean he’s an exceptionally good PP player or did he maybe get a lot of SH points?

Yeah, it means he scored a lot on special teams, most likely on the pp.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I can dig into this more tomorrow, but at first glance, there are two minor issues there.

1 - one of Conacher's 3s was from pre-consolidation, so it's not a true 3 until we look into it a lot more
2 - this season Doughty was voted by the players to be the 4th best defenseman

Looking forward to what you have on item #1

As for item #2, this is certainly worth something, but don't think it can be used as an equivalent to a Norris finish. In my experience player votes such as this tend to put a lot of weight on past seasons and reputation where a Norris vote is looking at only that particular season. For this reason players seem to generally be late to acknowledge and late to devalue. For example, in his sophomore season Doughty finished 3rd in Norris voting, I would be surprised if the players voted him the 3rd best Dman in the league that year.

 

[Dreakmur]

As for item #2, this is certainly worth something, but don't think it can be used as an equivalent to a Norris finish. In my experience player votes such as this tend to put a lot of weight on past seasons and reputation where a Norris vote is looking at only that particular season. For this reason players seem to generally be late to acknowledge and late to devalue. For example, in his sophomore season Doughty finished 3rd in Norris voting, I would be surprised if the players voted him the 3rd best Dman in the league that year.

They are simply different questions. This asks the players who they think is the best defenseman. The Norris trophy asks which defenseman had the best season. Big difference, which is why you get different answers.

 

[VanIslander]

Either Barrasso will win an all-time draft conference final and go into the championship game or Redden on a top pairing and Spezza as 3rd line center will.

I have never been as flabbergasted in my 15 years here. But, of course, this is just our second 40-team draft. Last time, the champion had Esposito in net, Clancy & Day on the top pairing (miles ahead of Redden), and Murray Oliver at 3C (PLEASE compare him and his line to Spezza here and his)...

One has to vote for which line-up DESERVES championship billing, eh?

Eh?!

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Either Barrasso will win an all-time draft conference final and go into the championship game or Redden on a top pairing and Spezza as 3rd line center will.

I have never been as flabbergasted in my 15 years here. But, of course, this is just our second 40-team draft. Last time, the champion had Esposito in net, Clancy & Day on the top pairing (miles ahead of Redden), and Murray Oliver at 3C (PLEASE compare him and his line to Spezza here and his)...

One has to vote for which line-up DESERVES championship billing, eh?

Eh?!

Barrasso has a strong defense in front of him, a better top pairing than referenced above from the previous champion.

Also, this is not the Conference Finals

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

They are simply different questions. This asks the players who they think is the best defenseman. The Norris trophy asks which defenseman had the best season. Big difference, which is why you get different answers.

Agreed.

When you have time I would be interested in seeing the ES numbers for lines 2 through 4 as well. We will have to do some guess work on Firsov, but should be a good place to start.

 

[Dreakmur]

Either Barrasso will win an all-time draft conference final and go into the championship game or Redden on a top pairing and Spezza as 3rd line center will.

I have never been as flabbergasted in my 15 years here. But, of course, this is just our second 40-team draft. Last time, the champion had Esposito in net, Clancy & Day on the top pairing (miles ahead of Redden), and Murray Oliver at 3C (PLEASE compare him and his line to Spezza here and his)...

One has to vote for which line-up DESERVES championship billing, eh?

Eh?!

Both teams suck, but one has to win. Vote for the ones that sucks least.

 

[VanIslander]

Indeed.

 

[Dreakmur]

Looking forward to what you have on item #1

Looking at 1926, there were several strong defensemen out west. Eddie Shore was just entering his peak now, and was a 1st Team All-Star out west. Herb Gardiner, who came to the NHL the following year and won the Hart. Bob Trapp, was the other 1st Team All-Star, and led defensemen in scoring, and trailed only Reg Noble once consolidated. Red Dutton had a really strong season.

Would it be unfair to call his 3rd in the NHL a 5th in a consolidated league?

 

[Dreakmur]

Agreed.

When you have time I would be interested in seeing the ES numbers for lines 2 through 4 as well. We will have to do some guess work on Firsov, but should be a good place to start.

So much math... ugh. I double-checked all your guys, so I think it's all correct, but if you think something looks fishy, I can check again (or send you the numbers).

Here is what I got for all your guys:

Syd Howe (76.9) - Anze Kopitar (79.1) - Mike Bossy (95.9) = Total 251.9
Alex Tanguay (83.1) - Ryan Getzlaf 83.1) - Larry Aurie (67.6) = Total 233.9
Patrick Sharp (66.1) - Red Sullivan (60.6) - John McLean (65.9) = Total 192.6
Brendan Morrow (61.1) - Brian Skrudland ((43.0) - Ryan Callahan (50.3) = Total 154.4
*Larry Aurie had a couple good seasons before they started recording special teams points, so I used 2 seasons with just regular vs.x and added that to the 5 seasons with ES vs.x


Here is what I had for mine:

Dean Prentice (76.6) - Jonathan Toews (78.9) - Gordie Howe (121.6) = Total 277.1
Anatoli Firsov (90.0) - Dave Keon (73.0) - Bernie Morris (85.9) = Total 248.9
Jack Marshall (67.8) - Jason Spezza (78.4) - Vladimir Tarasenko (68.6) = Total 214.6
Camille Henry (54.7) - David Krejci (75.4) - Bobby Schmautz (51.4) = Total 181.5

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Thanks for doing this. How is Morris' score calculated? Must be messy considering pre-consolidation and pre-special teams points being recorded.

Aurie's score being lower than his regular vs.X makes sense to me as it seems like he was used heavily on the PK, so probably less ES time

 

[Dreakmur]

Thanks for doing this. How is Morris' score calculated? Must be messy considering pre-consolidation and pre-special teams points being recorded.

Aurie's score being lower than his regular vs.X makes sense to me as it seems like he was used heavily on the PK, so probably less ES time

Pre 1934, there were no official special team points recorded, or I don’t know where to find them. Any season before that, I just used their regular score, which is essentially just assuming their scoring was perfectly spread out. Admittedly, that’s not likely, but there’s really no other way to do it.

Aurie often had a decent number of PP and SH points in the same season.

 

[Dreakmur]

My advantage at #2 defenseman should be a big difference also.

In fact, I'd say the gap between your #1 Doughty and my #2 Conacher is smaller than the gap between Conacher and your #2 Burns (and also smaller than gap between Clancy and Doughty).

Conacher is ahead of Burns, no question, but Burns has built a really strong legacy over the past 5 seasons. He's a risk-reward kind of player, but he makes a huge impact.

Charlie Conacher - 1, 2, 3, 4, *5, 8, 8 (split league 3rd becomes a consolidated 5th)
Brent Burns - 1, 2, 3, *5, 8, 12 (he was voted 5th best defenseman by the players in 2020)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago: Kopitar (as 1st line center), Aurie & Tanguay (as 2nd-line all-time greats)?

Your questioning of Aurie is very puzzling to me, he's more than fine as a 2nd line winger, I suggest you read his bio. He has an AS record of 1, 3, 3, 3, once led the playoffs in scoring, and tons of accolades in his bio about his outstanding two way play, toughness, and penalty killing

Kopitar is a lower-end 1st line C, but IMO he belongs, AS record of 3, 3, 6, 6, 8, one time Hart Finalist, best forward on 2 Cup winners (both times leading the league in playoff points), and an outstanding Selke record.

As seen above, Tanguay's ES scoring is quite strong. Sure that was somewhat influenced by playing with a great center, but he's also in a complimentary role on this line.

 

[VanIslander]

Aurie, in a 40-team draft, I now buy as an all-time great top-6 winger just as I did with others.