Jim Coleman Conference Semi Finals (1) Pittsburgh Bankers vs (2) Toronto Maple Leafs

[seventieslord]

Mike Babcock blew a 3-2 series lead in the Cup finals, in 2009, to Dan Bylsma.

I'ma just leave that there for everyone to see.

....please tell me you understand why I posted that

 

[ImporterExporter]

....please tell me you understand why I posted that

I do, but I don't entirely agree with it. And again, I'm finished with the Babcock debate. We've all given our thoughts and honstly I will agree with Dreakmur that Gorman vs Babcock is close enough that it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme here.

I'm working on a complete breakdown of the rosters and will post it up later tonight after the Pens-Flyers game.

 

[seventieslord]

I do, but I don't entirely agree with it.

So tell us, what do you call 2003 if it's not Babckock "taking a mediocre/average team and helping them advance well beyond expectations"?

 

[ImporterExporter]

So tell us, what do you call 2003 if it's not Babckock "taking a mediocre/average team and helping them advance well beyond expectations"?

Fine, i'll play.

One team. One year. First year coach, lightning in a bottle. History is littered with this crap. Please tell me sir, how well did the Ducks do the following year? I'll save you the trouble. They sucked ass. Then, Babcock gets bailed out by the lockout and declines to return. I wonder why. Ends up in Detroit (with a loaded f***ing roster constructed by the previous regime which included the greatest coach ever) where he routinely underachieves, seeing 1st place teams fall well short of expectations, sans 1 single year.

Dan Bylsma once won a SC out of nowhere. He was a fraud. I'm not calling Babcock a fraud but Jesus f***ing Christ I'm glad I'm an American sometimes when it comes to hockey. I'm not tied to the nuts of every Canadian "hero" player or coach.

All I see from the past 15+ posts are people throwing 1 or 2 sentences out at me, offering ZERO insight as to why their position is superior.

Nobody brings up his massive flop in 05-06 do they? One of the all time great regular season teams, gets bounced by 8th seed Edmonton in 6 games, round 1.

06-07? Gets bounced in the conference finals vs, guess who??? His former club, Anaheim! Detroit was favored.

Wanna bet Babs isn't relying on nostalgia and international teams to keep his rep intact?

From 2009-10 until now he's 27-37 in the postseason. I'm sorry but that's garbage. He hasn't been out of the 1st round in 5 years!

Here's Peter Laviolette:

Somebody explain the massive difference between the two, especially considering Laviolette never enjoyed having rosters that were stacked like the mid to late 2000 Detroit Red Wings???? I mean other than Lavi being an American, I don't see a huge gap in team performances given the teams each guy was coaching. Both went to 3 Cup finals. Both won once with Lavi doing it with a lesser overall team. He took a pretty suspect Flyers team to the finals in 2010 and took a WC team to the Finals last year.

 

[rmartin65]

So tell us, what do you call 2003 if it's not Babckock "taking a mediocre/average team and helping them advance well beyond expectations"?

I dont know what IE calls it, but I call the 2002-2003 Might Ducks of Anaheim JS Giguere.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The 06 Wings lost to an Oilers team who had a prime Pronger and Roloson playing out of his mind playing a tight trap game. Upsets happen all the time.

The Wings got bounced in consecutive years by Pronger who was a monster in those two runs

Only time I've been proud of the Oilers in my life time was that run

Honestly the coaching here is splitting hairs to me personally. And blaming Canadian hero bias for everyone's appraisal of Babcock seems weak.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The 06 Wings lost to an Oilers team who had a prime Pronger and Roloson playing out of his mind playing a tight trap game. Upsets happen all the time.

The Wings got bounced in consecutive years by Pronger who was a monster in those two runs

Only time I've been proud of the Oilers in my life time was that run

Honestly the coaching here is splitting hairs to me personally. And blaming Canadian hero bias for everyone's appraisal of Babcock seems weak.

I've said I agreed.

I've given ample reasons why Babcock is not clearly the best or 2nd best coach of this generation. Others have not. The Laviolette comparison is apt because quite frankly Lavi has done as much (or at least damn close) as an NHL coach, with less. But Babcock is apparently better than him, Quennville, Sutter, Julian, etc, etc.

I don't seriously believe it's much to do with being Canadian (although him being the Leafs coach with a bunch of Leafs fans in here right now isn't surprising) but seriously, I've shown pretty clearly that, unless you give him ridiculous credit for the Olympic rosters, which again were so far beyond any other nation, that his NHL coaching resume isn't (much) better than a handful of other guys still coaching today.

OK, I'm done until tonight when I can post my break downs.

 

[Dreakmur]

He is going against Tommy Gorman. Babcock is better than a guy who choached 8 years with a 0.500 record.

 

[ImporterExporter]

He is going against Tommy Gorman. Babcock is better than a guy who choached 8 years with a 0.500 record.

I guess regular season records are the end all be all.....I guess basically any coach who has a good wining % and a title with more than 8 years coaching is better than Gorman.

Next.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tom Gorman ,a coach/GM, was the first to win back-to-back SCs with two different teams,1934-Chicago, 1935 Maroons. Quick turnaround abilities. Innovative forecheck,strength as a coach adapting to the strengths of the players,contrary to Babcock who requires that players adapt to his ''system''.

 

[Dreakmur]

I guess regular season records are the end all be all.....I guess basically any coach who has a good wining % and a title with more than 8 years coaching is better than Gorman.

Next.

You can trash Babcock's record all you want, and I agree, he's had some failures along the way, but he's going against another guy with a similarly mixed resume. It about body of work. Babcock's is better than Gorman's.

 

[jarek]

Tom Gorman ,a coach/GM, was the first to win back-to-back SCs with two different teams,1934-Chicago, 1935 Maroons. Quick turnaround abilities. Innovative forecheck,strength as a coach adapting to the strengths of the players,contrary to Babcock who requires that players adapt to his ''system''.

His system led to one of the most dominating defensive performances in Olympic history in 2014

 

[Canadiens1958]

His system led to one of the most dominating defensive performances in Olympic history in 2014

And how would you rate the quality of the 2014 Olympic hockey coaches from all the competing nations?

 

[ImporterExporter]

His system led to one of the most dominating defensive performances in Olympic history in 2014

C58 beat me to it. "His system" was going up against VASTLY inferior rosters. Period.

I keep saying that Canada winning gold medals these days means less than it did 30-40 years ago. Any non biased and sane person would agree. Canada has never been more loaded top to bottom in terms of on ice talent relative to the other top international teams out there.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You can trash Babcock's record all you want, and I agree, he's had some failures along the way, but he's going against another guy with a similarly mixed resume. It about body of work. Babcock's is better than Gorman's.

"Trash Babcock"???

Where have I "trashed" him LOL?

I pointed (correctly IMO) out that his career record in the NHL is no more, or maybe very slightly more impressive than Peter Laviolette. His career is certainly less than Joel Quennville. The graphs above spell that out.

 

[Dreakmur]

"Trash Babcock"???

Where have I "trashed" him LOL?

I pointed (correctly IMO) out that his career record in the NHL is no more, or maybe very slightly more impressive than Peter Laviolette. His career is certainly less than Joel Quennville. The graphs above spell that out.

And that relates to his opponent - Tommy Gorman - how?

 

[ImporterExporter]

And that relates to his opponent - Tommy Gorman - how?

Gorman's regular season is inferior. But he also wasn't lucky enough to coach good/great teams. He won back to back titles for 2 seperate franchises, neither of which were good at the time. His record in the postseason was 13-8-4, so obviously much better than .500.

If you want a coach that's going to generally get the most out of his players, Gorman is better. If you care about regular season and longevity, then Babcock is your guy. Either way, I think most would agree it's a wash and really of little overall consequence to the series. Plus i'll note that Gorman wasn't just the coach. He was often the GM and had various other duties and jobs that he underook outside of hockey. He's certainly one of the greatest pure hockey builders of all time and his relatively short stint as a coach at the NHL level provided solid success.

 

[jarek]

And how would you rate the quality of the 2014 Olympic hockey coaches from all the competing nations?

I only need point to 1998 to demonstrate the difference good coaching can make with a stacked roster. The following roster didn't even win a medal:

Goaltenders/Gardiens de but
30	Martin Brodeur	6'1	205		New Jersey	Montreal, QC
31	Curtis Joseph	5'11	182		Edmonton	Keswick, ON
33	Patrick Roy	6'	189	Oct.	Colorado	Quebec City, QC
Defence/Défense
2	Al MacInnis	6'2	196		St. Louis	Inverness, NS
4	Scott Stevens	6'1	210		New Jersey	Kitchener, ON
24	Chris Pronger	6'6	220	Oct.	St. Louis	Dryden, ON
37	Eric Desjardins	6'1	200		Philadelphia	Rouyn, QC
44	Rob Blake	6'3	215	Dec.	Los Angeles	Simcoe, ON
52	Adam Foote	6'2	205		Colorado	Toronto, ON
77	Ray Bourque	5'11	215	Dec.	Boston	Montreal, QC
Forwards/Avants
7	Rob Zamuner	6'2	205	Sept.	Tampa Bay	Oakville, ON
9	Paul Kariya	5'10	180	Oct.	Anaheim	Vancouver, BC
14	Theoren Fleury	5'6	172		Calgary	Oxbow, SK
16	Trevor Linden	6'4	210		Vancouver	Medicine Hat, AB
17	Rod Brind'Amour	6'1	202	Aug.	Philadelphia	Ottawa, ON
19	Steve Yzerman	5'11	180		Detroit	Cranbrook, BC
20	Joe Sakic	5'11	190		Colorado	Vancouver, BC
25	Joe Nieuwendyk	6'1	195	Sept.	Dallas	Oshawa, ON
27	Shayne Corson	6 '	201	Aug.	Montreal	Barrie, ON
55	Keith Primeau	6'6	230	Nov.	Carolina	Toronto, ON
88	Eric Lindros	6'4	229	Feb.	Philadelphia	London, ON
94	Brendan Shanahan	6'3	220	Jan.	Detroit	Mimico, ON
99	Wayne Gretzky	6'	170	Jan.	New York Rangers	Brantford, ON

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dreakmur]

Gorman's regular season is inferior. But he also wasn't lucky enough to coach good/great teams. He won back to back titles for 2 seperate franchises, neither of which were good at the time. His record in the postseason was 13-8-4, so obviously much better than .500.

Gorman's cup-winning teams both finished 2nd in the regular season, so neither team was weak.

Also, his teams played in, what, three true play-off series? The rest were 2 game total goal series, right?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Gorman's cup-winning teams both finished 2nd in the regular season, so neither team was weak.

Also, his teams played in, what, three true play-off series? The rest were 2 game total goal series, right?

Where they finished doesn't matter and in fact is a good reflection of Gorman getting more out of less. Look at the actual rosters and talent relative to other teams. If you want to say Chicago and Montreal (Maroons) were good, or better I don't know what else to say.

 

[jarek]

Where they finished doesn't matter and in fact is a good reflection of Gorman getting more out of less.

I have personally never seen someone contradict themselves in the same sentence, until today.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I have personally never seen someone contradict themselves in the same sentence, until today.

Poorly worded on my part. The fact of the matter is Gorman took less than stellar rosters compared to the other teams in the NHL at the time and won 2 Cups.

I challenge you or Dreak to bring those Chicago/Maroon teams up that he was coaching and then put them against the Canadians, Rangers and Bruins and tell me what Gorman did wasn't f***ing impressive.

 

[Dreakmur]

Poorly worded on my part. The fact of the matter is Gorman took less than stellar rosters compared to the other teams in the NHL at the time and won 2 Cups.

I challenge you or Dreak to bring those Chicago/Maroon teams up that he was coaching and then put them against the Canadians, Rangers and Bruins and tell me what Gorman did wasn't ****ing impressive.

Nobody said it wasn't great. It's just not better than what Babcock has done....

 

[jarek]

Poorly worded on my part. The fact of the matter is Gorman took less than stellar rosters compared to the other teams in the NHL at the time and won 2 Cups.

I challenge you or Dreak to bring those Chicago/Maroon teams up that he was coaching and then put them against the Canadians, Rangers and Bruins and tell me what Gorman did wasn't ****ing impressive.

Nobody is saying that Gorman's work wasn't impressive. Back to back cups at any point in history was a great accomplishment, made even more impressive in his case because he did it with 2 different teams.

My issue personally is your almost complete discrediting of Babcock's regular season resume.. as well as ignoring that he also took some pretty mediocre teams to above expected results. His last two years in Detroit are an example of that. Most people were gushing over those teams and how great it was that Detroit lets their prospects develop for so long in the minors and were pointing at Nyquist and Tatar as examples of that. Well, what are those players doing now?

Babcock has his faults. He's stubborn to a fault at times (as most coaches are), and he has this kind of incomprehensible loyalty to players devoid of skill who just happen to work really hard. However, he also managed to revive the careers of Dan Cleary and Todd Bertuzzi to something resembling NHL players.

Also, just to touch on another point, I do not believe Babcock has some complete disregard for what works in today's game. If you look at the current Leafs, they're loaded with speed and skill, much like the Penguins. There is an issue with physicality and toughness, but that isn't up to him to solve. He's got to work with what he's got, and he's done as good of a job as anyone could have expected.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nobody is saying that Gorman's work wasn't impressive. Back to back cups at any point in history was a great accomplishment, made even more impressive in his case because he did it with 2 different teams.

My issue personally is your almost complete discrediting of Babcock's regular season resume.. as well as ignoring that he also took some pretty mediocre teams to above expected results. His last two years in Detroit are an example of that. Most people were gushing over those teams and how great it was that Detroit lets their prospects develop for so long in the minors and were pointing at Nyquist and Tatar as examples of that. Well, what are those players doing now?

Babcock has his faults. He's stubborn to a fault at times (as most coaches are), and he has this kind of incomprehensible loyalty to players devoid of skill who just happen to work really hard. However, he also managed to revive the careers of Dan Cleary and Todd Bertuzzi to something resembling NHL players.

Also, just to touch on another point, I do not believe Babcock has some complete disregard for what works in today's game. If you look at the current Leafs, they're loaded with speed and skill, much like the Penguins. There is an issue with physicality and toughness, but that isn't up to him to solve. He's got to work with what he's got, and he's done as good of a job as anyone could have expected.

Typical of McGill University grads.