Jim Coleman Conference Semi Finals (1) Pittsburgh Bankers vs (2) Toronto Maple Leafs
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"You're a boring old man"
Home Arena:
Duquesne Gardens
Pittsburgh Bankers Team:
Head Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternate Captain: Dit Clapper
Alternate Captain: Ted Kennedy
Forwards:
Frank Foyston - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Vladimir Martinec
Claude Giroux - Nels Stewart - Punch Broadbent
Sid Smith - Ted Kennedy (A) - Ed Westfall
Bob Bourne - Ryan Getzlaf - Wilf Paiement
Extras:
Phil Kessel
Nikita Kucherov
Rick Macleish
Defensemen:
Jacques Laperriere (19+0+5=24 min/night) - Dit Clapper (A) (19+4+2=25 min/night)
Pat Stapleton (17+2+2=21 min/night) - Bill White (17+0+5=22 min/night)
Frank Patrick (13+2+0=15 min/night) - Si Griffis (13+0+0 =13 min/night)
Extras:
Craig Hartsburg
Goalies:
Patrick Roy
Jonathan Quick
Penalty Kill:
Ted Kennedy - Ed Westfall
Jacques Lapierriere - Bill White
Bob Bourne/Wayne Gretzky - Vladimir Martinec
Pat Stapleton - Dit Clapper
Power Play:
PP 1:
Gretzky (floating, will move between left half wall and behind the net, and generally pull defensive boxes in his direction) -Elite at role
Stewart (net front) - Elite at role
Giroux (right half wall) - I'd say near elite given his career PP totals and usage
Getzlaf (QB, right point) - 35% of points on PP, plays the point extensively for Ducks. He's at least good.
Clapper (Trigger, left point) - Good at role
*4 Players capable of taking draws on the 1st unit.
PP 2:
Kennedy (right half wall)
Martinec (left half wall)
Foyston (Slot, net front)
Patrick (trigger, right point)
Stapleton (QB, left point)
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ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Well I investigated Giroux's positional breakdown from this year and according to Beef Invictus (Philly mod and diehard) Claude played all 82 games on the LW this year. I knew he played a large chunk to the left of Coutourier but didn't realize it was from day 1. Given he had his most dominant season of his career (Led league in assists, 2nd overall in points with 102) I'm going to deploy him on the 2nd line at LW next to Nels Stewart. This is a strong move on multiple fronts IMO. One, it allows Stewart to shift back to his natural position of C and it also allows Getzlaf to move down to the 4th line which creates major mismatches (as does Kennedy on the 3rd line). Giroux and Broadbent are great wingers for Stewart in that they are both very aggressive and can handle the board work and Giroux offers very good play making ability which gels with Stewart's elite goal scoring ability.
Looking at LL's roster from the last series he's got very strong defensive C's on his top 2 lines and I want to stretch him thin in terms of defending mine. And obviously his defensive corps is ridiculously good, especially the top 4. Creating as much depth as possible at F is key to beating the Leafs IMO.
Beyond that, I'll wait until LL posts his roster up.
Looking at LL's roster from the last series he's got very strong defensive C's on his top 2 lines and I want to stretch him thin in terms of defending mine. And obviously his defensive corps is ridiculously good, especially the top 4. Creating as much depth as possible at F is key to beating the Leafs IMO.
Beyond that, I'll wait until LL posts his roster up.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
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"You're a boring old man"
Connor McDavid is a C who takes less than a normal amount of faceoffs (for a 21 minute a night C) because he's horrible at it. Giroux has always been good to great in the dot, hence why they give him a workload. I'd wager looking at the splits between him and Couturier they alternate depending on what side of the ice the draw is on. Giroux is a righty and Couts a lefty.
He played every game at LW according to Beef Invictus a Global/Philly board mod. Somebody I trust from their section. I'll get more Philly folks to chime if needed but faceoff stats prove little.
Yeah Giroux was definitely a LW. He took faceoffs because hes better than Couturier at them, but after that he shifted back to LW. If you want evidence, check in on Wednesday, or check the Flyers' GDT
Dreakmur
Registered User
So Giroux has 1 elite season at left wing? Also, you’re expecting him to do the dirty work for Stewart while the entire reason for him being moved to wing this season was based around his lack of ability to handle the rigours of playing in the middle?
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
As far as i know, Joe Malone had 1 elite season at LW and he's readily played there with no issue in the ATD. I know overpass put him there this year. I don't see people lining up to question the validity of that move......
Giroux wasn't moved to LW because he can't handle the rigors of playing the middle LOL. He's proven throughout his career to be an aggressive fore checker and guy who played well beyond his size. I've seen it with my own eyes living in PA and watching the battles with Crosby over the years, not to mention seeing plenty of others Flyers games. From my understanding talking with Beef Invictus he was moved to the wing to extend his career and high end abilities. He's near elite in the dot and still takes plenty of draws (as 70's and Sprague pointed out), he still plays a rough and tumble game. Giroux actually started his career on the wing anyway so this isn't some foreign notion.
The guy is about as perfect a player as you could design for Nels Stewart IMO. Big time worker/checker who will bounce others and himself around the ice, coupled with elite play making abilities. He and Broadbent can do the heavy lifting in the corners and defensively and given they are bit smaller than average, are well protected by the bigger Stewart should other teams start getting shady with the physical stuff. Given Stewart was one of the very best fighters and biggest, baddest players in the NHL during the 20's and 30's.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Coach Mike Babcock
Alex Delvechio-Sergie Fedorov -Temu Selanne
Brian Propp- Dave Keon -Steve Larmer
Charlie Simmer-Bernie Federko-Peter Bondra
Kirk Muller - Dale Hunter-Bob Nystrom
Taylor Hall-Tod Sloan
Bobby Orr - Tim Horton
Carl Brewer - Allan Stanley
Gus Mortson -Bobby Baun
Wally Stanowski-Niklas Kronwall
Johnny Bower
Mike Richter
Captain:
Keon
Assistans:
Orr, Brewer , Federko , Hunter
#10-Alex Delvechio
#91 -Segie Fedorov
#8 -Temu Selanne
#26- Brian Propp
#14- Dave Keon
#28 -Steve Larmer
#11-Charlie Simmer
#24-Bernie Federko
#12-Peter Bondra
#9 -Kirk Muller
#32- Dale Hunter
#23-Bob Nystrom
#9-Taylor Hall
#11-Tod Sloan
#4-Bobby Orr
#7 - Tim Horton
#2-Carl Brewer
#26- Allan Stanley
#2-Gus Mortson
#21 -Bobby Baun
#3-Wally Stanowski
#55-Niklas Kronwall
#1-Johnny Bower
#35-Mike Richter
Power Play
PP Unit 1
Delvechio -Fedorov-Selanne
Orr - Horton
PP Unit 2
Simmer -Federko- Bondra
Brewer - Mortson
Penalty Kill
PK Unit 1
Keon-Larmer
Orr - Horton
PK Unit 2
Propp - Fedorov
Brewer-Baun
Given Tommy Gorman was a pioneer of aggressive forechecking I think this is a series where doing so will be quite important for the Bankers.
I know LL has Orr lined up at LD (Horton on the right side) so one would wager you'll see a lot of Broadbent, Westfall and Paiment getting in hard on the forecheck and trying to chip Orr and company when possible. It's important that they are aggresive but responsibly so. Each Bankers line has at least 2 responsible and/or good defensive players on it and keeping a 3rd man high is important when we do go hard into the corners and high traffic areas at even strength.
I think the Bankers are significantly better offensively speaking.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/
Gretzky's 7 year VsX is 155.6 vs just 80.8 for Fedorov (Leafs 1st line C). That's nearly an insane 2-1 ratio. Now obviously Feds is a high end defensive player but C's are the probably the most important position, historically speaking when it comes to Cup winners, year to year. Fedorov is absolutely a great 2 way C, but his relative lack of offense for a 1st line player in the ATD puts added pressure on his wings to support the load, whereas somebody like Gretzky can carry an entire line by himself and he's not skating with bums in Foyston and Martinec. It's a line that has incredible scoring ability, intangibles, a nice blend of grit and finesse, and obviously a ridiculous amount of high end postseason play. No doubt, they'll be tested by Orr-Horton and I'd wager a combination of the Keon and Dale Hunter lines. But given the traits i mentioned above, I think my top line will generate scoring chances regardless of who's on them over the course of 4+ games.
Dave Keon's 7 year VsX is 74.3. Nels Stewart is 90.3
Bernie Federko's score is 77.6. Ted Kennedy is 78.8
Dale Hunter is sub 55. Ryan Getzlaf is 83.7
I think the Leafs are at a major disadvantage when looking at C for 2 reasons. One, the scores themselves reflect a huge advantage for Pittsburgh among pivots, and because of that, the Leafs really don't have the option of going power on power (scoring line vs scoring line) because it puts their already handicapped offense (among forwards) in a highly slanted defensive posture. And while the Leafs could opt for that strategy it puts an enormous amount of pressure on their D to contriubte offensively (even beyond Orr) which lends itself to counter attacks.
The Bankers other big advantage is in net. I actually like Bower in a playoff setting but even he's only average at best in a 24 team draft. Roy's either 1 or 2 (for vast majority of people) and certainly the greatest playoff/money goalie of all time. His presence bridges the defensive corps gap quite a bit IMO.....
The Leafs have the best overall D in the ATD. I'm not going to argue much on this front because the Leafs spent a lot of high end picks on their blueline and would enjoy an advantage over any team left IMO. With that being said, I do think the Bankers 2nd and 3rd pairs are close to the Leafs' 2nd and 3rd pairs in overall skill and talent and we have real life chemsitry (Stapleton-White, Patrick-Griffis) that should aid in the cohesiveness of the entire unit.
Tommy Gorman is superior to Mike Babcock IMO.
I think the Bankers have a vastly better PP. And our kill is every bit as good as Toronto if not slightly better IMHO.
Orr-Horton is a tremendous kill pairing but I think I actually have a unit that are their equals in a PK vaccum. See graphs. Laperriere might be the best pure PK defensemen of all time given his ridiculous usage and team success rate. Bill White isn't far behind him as you can see. I'd give Keon the nod as being superior to Kennedy at C but Westfall is certainly miles better than Larmer IMO.
Dreakmur
Registered User
I'm not sure I can get on board with that. Even as a Leaf fan who wonders what the heck Babcock is thinking sometimes, he's still been one of the best handful of coached for over a decade now.
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"You're a boring old man"
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-40-stanley-cup-playoff-performers-of-all-time.2222511/
And as always, I'll point out that the Bankers enjoy the best collection of playoff performers ever assembled (possibly) in the ATD.
Gretzky's 1.
Roy's 2.
Kennedy's 9.
Foyston's 40th.
Martinec was a brilliant player for the Czech team throughout his career against top international competition at the WC's and Olympic's. His international numbers stack up against almost any Russian from the golden era of European hockey. Getzlaf has had an overall strong playoff career. Just a hair less than a PPG in 120 games. Bobby Bourne was incredible during the Islanders dynasty scoring 74 points in 74 games during their 4 straight Cup wins. Clapper and Lappy combined for 8 Cup wins and generally were strong there.
And as always, I'll point out that the Bankers enjoy the best collection of playoff performers ever assembled (possibly) in the ATD.
Gretzky's 1.
Roy's 2.
Kennedy's 9.
Foyston's 40th.
Martinec was a brilliant player for the Czech team throughout his career against top international competition at the WC's and Olympic's. His international numbers stack up against almost any Russian from the golden era of European hockey. Getzlaf has had an overall strong playoff career. Just a hair less than a PPG in 120 games. Bobby Bourne was incredible during the Islanders dynasty scoring 74 points in 74 games during their 4 straight Cup wins. Clapper and Lappy combined for 8 Cup wins and generally were strong there.
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"You're a boring old man"
He's got 1 Cup win 15 years and that came with a largely inherited roster from the previous regime. A roster that was quite stacked. Great regular season coach but a bit overrated if we're talking postseason play IMO. He's a guy that gets a wider berth than most, in large part because of his time in Detroit and Team Canada.
Dreakmur
Registered User
His time with Detroit and Team Canada matter.
It's not like he going against Toe Blake here. Tommy Gorman has an 8 season coaching career were he was 1 game above 0.500.
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"You're a boring old man"
Never said it didn't.
But I think his resume in Detroit is artificially inflated because he stepped into job that gave him guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Franzen, Kronwall, etc, etc. And he's got 1 ring in 15 years. Same thing with Team Canada. He's been coaching rosters that are always favored to win by a wide margin. Nobody else in the world is close to a fully loaded Canada roster.
Is Mike Sullivan a better coach than Babcock? Back to back Cup wins and coaching for a 3rd straight right now. Of course not, because, one, he's still very early in his career, and two, like Babcock, stepped into a roster loaded with high end talent.
Babcock is one of the more overrated coaches in the league right now. That's just my opinion of course.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
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As a Pens fan, you've seen firsthand how bad coaching can sink an otherwise good team. I'm really surprised by these comments.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Lets say that's all true.... He's going against Tommy Gorman. He doesn't have to be elite to be the better coach in this series.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Babcock has spent 15 years in the league, generally coaching good to great teams (minus the very end of his Detroit tenure). He's got 1 title in 3 trips in the finals. Great regular season record. Great resume with Team Canada, but I don't put a lot of stock in Canadian coaches these days considering Canadian rosters are beyond loaded compared to any other nation. Don't know why anyone would either. This isn't Canada vs Russia circa 1972 or 75. A Canada vs the World tournament today would still favor the guys up north.
If people want to call this a wash, fine. I just don't particularly think Babcock is THAT great a coach. Take away his Cup from 2008 and I don't see much difference between him and a coach like Trotz or Boudreau. I get I'm debating with a pair of Leafs fans (i think) but his resume just doesn't excite me. Quennville and Sutter are ahead of him and Mike Sullivan is honestly a 3rd straight Cup win away from passing him as well IMO, given the magnitude of an accomplish like that would be, in a salary cap era.
Dreakmur
Registered User
If all you know about coaching is how many cups a guy won, I can see why you would think Babcock is over rated.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Babcock tends to be considered the best, or 2nd best coach of this generation. Where does Gorman rank for his generation?
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
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If you think Babcock is overrated, fine - aside from cup counting, what makes you think that way?
Put it another way: he has an excellent regular season resume despite having coached some mediocre teams. The post-Lidstrom Red Wings have not been good IMO, but he coached them to 3 straight playoff appearances until inferior coaching after him (IMO) and the lack of talent finally caught up. The offense went right to the dumpster and eventually so did the defense.
As far as his team Canada resume, don't you think it's quite a compliment that TC brass chose him over the many quality candidates that were available? Not to mention that the 2014 Canadian roster put together one of the most dominant defensive performances in Olympic hockey history. That's a credit to Babcock's system as far as I'm concerned.
You'd like to see him with more cup wins. I get that. 2006 and 2007 are especially hard to comprehend.
The only 3 coaches in this era who are more accomplished than him in the playoffs are Quenneville, Sutter and Sullivan. They didn't do it on an even playing field either as far as I'm concerned with respect to some of the extremely favourable contracts they were carrying that allowed their GMs to build excellent teams. Did Babcock ever have the same luxury? I ask because I honestly don't know. This does make a difference and until those contracts are off the books, there will not be an even playing field.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
By who? I'd love to see people outside Detroit/Toronto weigh in, because I don't see how anyone can put him higher than 3rd.
When has Babcock ever taken a mediocre/average team and helped them advance well beyond expectations the way say a Tommy Gorman did....twice? The only time Babs won a Cup was with one of the 5-6 greatest defensemen to ever play the game, one of the greatest pure 2 way C's to ever play in Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Rafalski, Kronwall, Osgood, etc.
Quennville (nearly 900 regular season wins) might have had loaded roster(s) in Chicago but he also managed to get those rosters to the finals 3 times in 6 seasons, winning all 3. Sutter took less than dominant Kings teams to Cup wins twice (throw in a series win down 0-3 as well for good measure). Another guy who's well represented as a regular season coach. Mike Sullivan is fast racing up on Babcock because he's getting more out of a loaded roster than Babs did in Detroit.
Hell, Peter Laviolette has been to as many finals (3) as Babcock and his win with Carolina is far more impressive than MB's in Detroit, looking at rosters alone. Lavi, who I'm not exactly a huge fan of either, has NEVER enjoyed coaching a roster with near as much talent as Babcock has had in Detroit or on Team Canada. Not even remotely close. You can argue he's done more with much less.
You're inventing things I haven't said.
The fact of the matter is Babs hasn't been past the 2nd round since 2009 and it doesn't look like that will be changing this year either. His regular season winning % is elite, but so are a handful of other coaches in the past 10-12 years. And like it or not, coaches are largely judged on how they fare in the postseason, the quality (or lack there of) of roster they have to work with and at the end of the day Babcock is behind multiple coaches in that respect in the past decade. Fact.
What innovations has Babcock made on hockey? What are the dynamic, long lasting X's and O's and strategies that he has brought forth that have been copied repeatedly? Defensive hockey? Sutter's proven to take defensive clubs (with less talent) further.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
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"You're a boring old man"
Mike Babcock blew a 3-2 series lead in the Cup finals, in 2009, to Dan Bylsma.
I'ma just leave that there for everyone to see.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
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No, the Detroit Red Wings did. You know, a game or playoff loss isn't 100% on the coach. You may have the greatest superstars in the world, but they still have to perform. See Nagano.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
He was the coach of the Red Wings, was he not?
Therefor he owns some of the blame. Blowing a 3-2 series lead to somebody as inept as Dan Bylsma is pretty damn bad. Especially considering how pathetic Bylsma's career has been since his 4 months of "fame".
I find it comical that Babcock still gets gushed over today. But I'm being "attacked" by a slew of Leafs fans so I'm not surprised. Let me know when his out dated tactics move you guys beyond round 1.
Either way I'm done with this debate. I think Gorman has a slight advantage because he did MORE WITH LESS in a much shorter time frame at the NHL level. Fact. If you want to call it a wash or even put Babcock on some mythical f***ing level be my guest.
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