Jim Coleman Conference Quarterfinals: (1) Pittsburgh Bankers vs (2) Kingsman Secret Agents

[jarek]

Nighbor dominated defensively in an era that players couldn’t make forward passes. You think his era didn’t impact him?

My point is that I suspect Gretzky's ridiculous SHP totals is a systems thing. Sather likely told Gretzky to go out there and score. I don't have the benefit of looking at SHP, but if you look at his career trajectory for SHG, it starts right at Edmonton's first cup season and ends in his first year in LA. Is Gorman going to encourage, or even allow his players to play the way Gretzky did on the PK in real life? Gretzky's greatest benefit on the PK is his scoring ability, but I just don't see the compatibility here between coach and player unless someone can prove me wrong.

Given the above, I don't think Gretzky is even an average PK'er here. He's great on the PK in a system that allows him to play offensively there. I'd like to see the proof that this is how Gorman would direct him to play.

Speaking of which, I think Martinec is in the same boat. @Batis can you tell us if the Czechs played a similar PK style like the Soviets, possession and puck control? I think Martinec is a really good PK'er on a 2nd unit, but again, it seems the fit with the coach is a bit awkward.

Re. Kennedy

Fine, but we're starting to have an awful lot of "1st unit viable" PK'ers in this awfully small draft. Toppazzini was one of the better short handed scorers of his time, and his PK'ing ability is given glowing praise. Nevin is the same. For my money, Nighbor is one of the best PK'ers of all time.

Kennedy's SHPs is fine, but where is the praise for his PK'ing ability the way Toppazzini and Nevin got? And others even around that time?

If Kennedy is a viable 1st unit PK'er here, I can't imagine he's much better than average at best.

 

[jarek]

Anyway, sorry I'm not so active here just yet. Most of my arguments will be coming Tuesday and Wednesday next week. I'll take some time to answer IE's posts at that time as well.

 

[jarek]

So the strategy for Kingsman in terms of line matchups may look something like this:

Krutov - MacKay - Nevin - Langway - Pilote vs. Foyston - Gretzky - Martinec

It's a bit of a shame to put a great player like Krutov in more of a checking role but I think it's necessary here. His skating ability should serve him well in keeping up with Martinec in the neutral zone, while that same speed should serve him well in transition if and when MacKay/Nevin are able to steal the puck away from the Gretzky line. Not only will this line do an admirable job in dealing with Gretzky, but they should also serve as a very legitimate counter attacking threat as well.

Leaving MacKay in a more defensive role in this series is the right move I believe because that lets him concentrate on using his great defensive skills without worrying about having to do any heavy lifting offensively. It was shown during the draft that he struggled a bit in the post-season so this should put him in the best position to succeed.

Kapustin - Fredrickson - Nedomansky - Pospisil - Mohns vs. Stewart - Getzlaf - Broadbent

I'm going to be honest, I'm not a fan of the Bankers' second line because it's so predictable. Everything goes through Getzlaf, so the key is to shut him down, which I think Fredrickson is more than capable of. That he won't get much defensive help from his wingers shouldn't be a huge issue here, mainly because Broadbent is so bad offensively and Stewart needs other players to do heavy lifting for him to be effective. Fredrickson will attempt to make sure that Stewart is held in check by keeping Getzlaf in check. Should the Bankers' line turn the puck over, then once again we have a very fast unit to mount a dangerous counter attack.

With all that being said, that leaves the top line to try to do damage offensively against the lower units of the Bankers. Letting MacKay handle Gretzky allows Nighbor to do what he did best in real life in the post-season - carry the offensive burden for his team to victory.

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Re. Defense

I don't see that either team has much of an advantage on the 2nd and 3rd pairs. I'd say it's a wash either way. Considering that Kingsman has the clearly better 1st pairing, I'd say the defensive advantage actually goes to Kingsman. Where this defensive advantage becomes even greater in my opinion, and what may ultimately hurt the Bankers quite a bit, is that they have no Paul Coffey on defense to get the puck up to Gretzky. Pat Stapleton is probably their best offensive defenseman and it's not even remotely close to having a Coffey. I think the Bankers may have it worse when it comes to zone breakouts compared to Kingsman, especially if you compare the 1st pairings in that regard.

 

[ImporterExporter]

So the strategy for Kingsman in terms of line matchups may look something like this:

Krutov - MacKay - Nevin - Langway - Pilote vs. Foyston - Gretzky - Martinec

It's a bit of a shame to put a great player like Krutov in more of a checking role but I think it's necessary here. His skating ability should serve him well in keeping up with Martinec in the neutral zone, while that same speed should serve him well in transition if and when MacKay/Nevin are able to steal the puck away from the Gretzky line. Not only will this line do an admirable job in dealing with Gretzky, but they should also serve as a very legitimate counter attacking threat as well.

Leaving MacKay in a more defensive role in this series is the right move I believe because that lets him concentrate on using his great defensive skills without worrying about having to do any heavy lifting offensively. It was shown during the draft that he struggled a bit in the post-season so this should put him in the best position to succeed.

Kapustin - Fredrickson - Nedomansky - Pospisil - Mohns vs. Stewart - Getzlaf - Broadbent

I'm going to be honest, I'm not a fan of the Bankers' second line because it's so predictable. Everything goes through Getzlaf, so the key is to shut him down, which I think Fredrickson is more than capable of. That he won't get much defensive help from his wingers shouldn't be a huge issue here, mainly because Broadbent is so bad offensively and Stewart needs other players to do heavy lifting for him to be effective. Fredrickson will attempt to make sure that Stewart is held in check by keeping Getzlaf in check. Should the Bankers' line turn the puck over, then once again we have a very fast unit to mount a dangerous counter attack.

With all that being said, that leaves the top line to try to do damage offensively against the lower units of the Bankers. Letting MacKay handle Gretzky allows Nighbor to do what he did best in real life in the post-season - carry the offensive burden for his team to victory.

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Re. Defense

I don't see that either team has much of an advantage on the 2nd and 3rd pairs. I'd say it's a wash either way. Considering that Kingsman has the clearly better 1st pairing, I'd say the defensive advantage actually goes to Kingsman. Where this defensive advantage becomes even greater in my opinion, and what may ultimately hurt the Bankers quite a bit, is that they have no Paul Coffey on defense to get the puck up to Gretzky. Pat Stapleton is probably their best offensive defenseman and it's not even remotely close to having a Coffey. I think the Bankers may have it worse when it comes to zone breakouts compared to Kingsman, especially if you compare the 1st pairings in that regard.

1. I think a Foyston-Gretzky-Martinec line would absolutely destroy Krutov-MacKay-Nevin over a series. I think Martinec's offensive accumen is far better than Krutov is defensively and MacKay has no business getting much in the way of handling an offensive juggernaut like 99. Especially considering this is the postseason and we all know how Wayne fared there, against all comers. Not to mention my top line is supremely dominant collectively as playoff performers and is well balanced with grit, finesse, play making, goal scoring, etc.

2. Not sure why being predictable has anything to do with how well a line is constructed or how it should fare because it is constructed in such a manner that is condusive to heavy puck possession and subsequently scoring chances. We can point to many lines throughout hockey history and say "well that line is predictable". Look at just about any line Sidney Crosby has skated on in real life. He almost always drags around bottom 6 forwards or worse. And yet he's one of the all time greats. Teams go out of their way to slow him down and generally speaking, doesn't work THAT often. Getzlaf and Broadbent are about as perfect a combination as you can have next to Stewart in that they both excel in the heavy lifting be it facilitating the puck movement or banging in the corners and around the net. That allows Stewart to get to the net and wreack havoc as he did in real life as an elite goal scorer. Getzlaf essentially has a much more potent version of Corey Perry on his left wing. Plus Getzlaf and Broadbent are both solid defensively which minimizes concerns about Stewart in that same role, even though I found a good amount of information showing Stewart was plenty capable defensively during his Montreal days. Broadbent and Stewart also played a pair of seasons together on the same line, including Stewarts first Hart season in 1925-26. So not only is the line constructed well from a style standpoint IMO, you have some real life chemsitry to boot.

3. If anything the Bankers have the best chance at slowing down the Kingsmen's top line given we can deploy Smith-Kennedy-Westfall against them. Kennedy is a very, very good defensive C. And arguably one of the greatest face off men in the history of the game. Extremely physical, incredible forechecker. And just as, if not more accomplished in the postseason as Nighbor. The HoH top 40 project shined light on this. Nighbor will get his chances but Ted Kennedy is about as good as you can get 1-1 because not only is he a supremely talented defensive C, he also, as a 3rd liner is excellent offensively. Westfall is pretty easily one of the greatest defensive wingers of all time. He'll make life quite difficult for Denneny. Your biggest advantage is Kane vs Smith but even then he'll be coming down Lapierriere's side as well so that aids in the defensive structure. Kennedy and Smith were teammates for 10 years in Toronto in real life so again, chemsitry should be an added bonus for the Bankers here. I have to say I like the Bankers odds of our top line doing more damage than your top line.

4. Stapleton is not our best offensive Dman. That would be Clapper. The man who was a multiple time all star at F. He was 1 point out of 1st place in scoring among Dmen in 38-39. Led all defensemen in scoring in 39-40 and again the following year. 4th place in 42-43. This all taking place in his early to mid 30's. Take a look at the video below. Check out the wheels on Clapper, and the sublime backhand he pots. Start at about :56 seconds. Not only can he skate very well he can finish, which one would think considering his success at F in the first half of his career. I think the Bankers have an excellent puck moving Dman in Clapper on the top line, Stapleton is solid in that role on the 2nd and Frank Patrick is certainly one of the better 3rd pairing puck movers in the draft as well.

 

[jarek]

1. I think a Foyston-Gretzky-Martinec line would absolutely destroy Krutov-MacKay-Nevin over a series. I think Martinec's offensive accumen is far better than Krutov is defensively and MacKay has no business getting much in the way of handling an offensive juggernaut like 99. Especially considering this is the postseason and we all know how Wayne fared there, against all comers. Not to mention my top line is supremely dominant collectively as playoff performers and is well balanced with grit, finesse, play making, goal scoring, etc.

Obviously a guy like Martinec is better offensively than a guy like Krutov is defensively. The point is Krutov can keep up with Martinec and he was a great stickhandler himself, so the same goes both ways as far as I'm concerned. The combination of MacKay and Nevin should be able to slow down Gretzky well enough as well, along with the defensive excellence of Langway. I don't know why you think MacKay would be handling him alone anyways.. not to mention MacKay was an elite defensive player for his time to begin with, having been said to give Nighbor a run for his money as a hook checker.

2. Not sure why being predictable has anything to do with how well a line is constructed or how it should fare because it is constructed in such a manner that is condusive to heavy puck possession and subsequently scoring chances. We can point to many lines throughout hockey history and say "well that line is predictable". Look at just about any line Sidney Crosby has skated on in real life. He almost always drags around bottom 6 forwards or worse. And yet he's one of the all time greats. Teams go out of their way to slow him down and generally speaking, doesn't work THAT often. Getzlaf and Broadbent are about as perfect a combination as you can have next to Stewart in that they both excel in the heavy lifting be it facilitating the puck movement or banging in the corners and around the net. That allows Stewart to get to the net and wreack havoc as he did in real life as an elite goal scorer. Getzlaf essentially has a much more potent version of Corey Perry on his left wing. Plus Getzlaf and Broadbent are both solid defensively which minimizes concerns about Stewart in that same role, even though I found a good amount of information showing Stewart was plenty capable defensively during his Montreal days. Broadbent and Stewart also played a pair of seasons together on the same line, including Stewarts first Hart season in 1925-26. So not only is the line constructed well from a style standpoint IMO, you have some real life chemsitry to boot.

There's a big difference between Crosby and Getzlaf. Getzlaf has been shown to be very stoppable during his career. Frank Fredrickson, a man who checked Howie Morenz to a standstill, should be more than capable of handling him. Stop Getzlaf, and you pretty much shut down that line IMO. Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, I've got a very fast and very mean line myself on that 3rd unit, and should the Getzlaf line turn the puck over, there may very well be a number of odd man rushes going the other way.

3. If anything the Bankers have the best chance at slowing down the Kingsmen's top line given we can deploy Smith-Kennedy-Westfall against them. Kennedy is a very, very good defensive C. And arguably one of the greatest face off men in the history of the game. Extremely physical, incredible forechecker. And just as, if not more accomplished in the postseason as Nighbor. The HoH top 40 project shined light on this. Nighbor will get his chances but Ted Kennedy is about as good as you can get 1-1 because not only is he a supremely talented defensive C, he also, as a 3rd liner is excellent offensively. Westfall is pretty easily one of the greatest defensive wingers of all time. He'll make life quite difficult for Denneny. Your biggest advantage is Kane vs Smith but even then he'll be coming down Lapierriere's side as well so that aids in the defensive structure. Kennedy and Smith were teammates for 10 years in Toronto in real life so again, chemsitry should be an added bonus for the Bankers here. I have to say I like the Bankers odds of our top line doing more damage than your top line.

How was Kennedy as a skater? I always thought he was slow but maybe I'm wrong. That should cause issues against a guy like Nighbor who was fast, but also an excellent stick handler. Kennedy reads more like a guy who uses physical dominance as a defensive tactic over pure skill, which plays right into what Nighbor wants as far as I'm concerned. The physical play never really bothered Nighbor in real life, and with all due respect to Kennedy, he is not close to the physical beasts that Nighbor played against on a regular basis. I see my line having a fair amount of success against your checking line.

4. Stapleton is not our best offensive Dman. That would be Clapper. The man who was a multiple time all star at F. He was 1 point out of 1st place in scoring among Dmen in 38-39. Led all defensemen in scoring in 39-40 and again the following year. 4th place in 42-43. This all taking place in his early to mid 30's. Take a look at the video below. Check out the wheels on Clapper, and the sublime backhand he pots. Start at about :56 seconds. Not only can he skate very well he can finish, which one would think considering his success at F in the first half of his career. I think the Bankers have an excellent puck moving Dman in Clapper on the top line, Stapleton is solid in that role on the 2nd and Frank Patrick is certainly one of the better 3rd pairing puck movers in the draft as well.

I'm not going to disagree with any of this except no defenseman you have is close to the offensive juggernaut that Coffey was. To be honest though, I'm not sure just how much this matters. Your defense is an excellent part of your team and it's hard to find any real holes there. That's about all I can think of. I'm honestly one of the people of the opinion that Coffey helped Wayne and co. as much as the other way around, and if I was building a team around Wayne I'd also want an elite offensive defenseman to play with him.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Obviously a guy like Martinec is better offensively than a guy like Krutov is defensively. The point is Krutov can keep up with Martinec and he was a great stickhandler himself, so the same goes both ways as far as I'm concerned. The combination of MacKay and Nevin should be able to slow down Gretzky well enough as well, along with the defensive excellence of Langway. I don't know why you think MacKay would be handling him alone anyways.. not to mention MacKay was an elite defensive player for his time to begin with, having been said to give Nighbor a run for his money as a hook checker.



There's a big difference between Crosby and Getzlaf. Getzlaf has been shown to be very stoppable during his career. Frank Fredrickson, a man who checked Howie Morenz to a standstill, should be more than capable of handling him. Stop Getzlaf, and you pretty much shut down that line IMO. Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, I've got a very fast and very mean line myself on that 3rd unit, and should the Getzlaf line turn the puck over, there may very well be a number of odd man rushes going the other way.



How was Kennedy as a skater? I always thought he was slow but maybe I'm wrong. That should cause issues against a guy like Nighbor who was fast, but also an excellent stick handler. Kennedy reads more like a guy who uses physical dominance as a defensive tactic over pure skill, which plays right into what Nighbor wants as far as I'm concerned. The physical play never really bothered Nighbor in real life, and with all due respect to Kennedy, he is not close to the physical beasts that Nighbor played against on a regular basis. I see my line having a fair amount of success against your checking line.



I'm not going to disagree with any of this except no defenseman you have is close to the offensive juggernaut that Coffey was. To be honest though, I'm not sure just how much this matters. Your defense is an excellent part of your team and it's hard to find any real holes there. That's about all I can think of. I'm honestly one of the people of the opinion that Coffey helped Wayne and co. as much as the other way around, and if I was building a team around Wayne I'd also want an elite offensive defenseman to play with him.

1. Again, I don't know how much anyone will "slow down" Gretzky over the course of 4+ games. It frankly very rarely happened, especially throughout his Edmonton days in the postseason. I think the line is put together in such a manner that you can see any one of Gretzky, Martinec or Foyston (all were noted high end stickhandlers and puck carriers) handle the puck extremely well and drive offense. No one player is necessarily wholly dependent on another to get them the puck. You also have a huge amount of hockey IQ with those 3 and I think they'll work extremely well with one another, with or without the puck.

2. I think the Getzlaf line is more than capable of playing multiple styles. Nels Stewart, was a noted stickhandler and much faster than previously thought, at least during the best period of his career (Montreal). There isn't a ton of speed on this line but they are ridiculously rugged and play like a team that will put up strong posession numbers once they get down into the cycle game. Yes, Getzlaf is the engine of the line but Stewart is more than capable of handling the disc and I think they can either make headway with the transition game or play a more traditional dump and chase game with a guy like Broadbent playing extremely well in that role. My 2nd line is going to make life very miserable for the opposing D on the forecheck and create a lot of havoc in the high traffic areas. Also, you will see Gretzky double shifted with Stewart and Broadbent a handful of times as well to maximize his ES minutes and impact.

3. Kennedy wasn't a swift skater. But he was quite quick in short areas from everything I read. He reads as a guy that simply outworked literaelly everyone and had excellent hockey IQ. Yes, he was very rugged, but I don't think for one second he was a straight brawler, offensively or defensively. His ability in the dot will lead to better puck possession for the Bankers and there is more than enough information to see that he was very good in his own end. Obviously he killed a lot of penalties for Hap Day as well. I also think you're selling Kennedy short on him not being close to the "phyiscal beasts" that Nighbor went up against. Kennedy may not be a great skater but he was most certainly a very tough SOB. Furious checker. The only thing more outlandish in Nighbor's time was the brutality in terms of fighting and liberties taken on the whole. I don't think that players in the teens and 20's were any more tough than those guys playing in the 40's and 50's. The game simply evolved a lot to remove some of the most egregious violence out.

4. No doubt. Coffey is the 2nd greatest offensive Dman ever. It would be near impossible to replicate his offensive impact unless you had a Bobby Orr or Red Kelly type on the back end. But Clapper in many ways is a slightly poor man's version of Kelly in that he had success at forward and then transitioned into an impact Dman who remained a threat offensively. Obviously Kelly has more of a resume on D but Clapper also didn't start playing on the blueline until he was 31 years old and still managed to be a 4 time AS there with 2 of those years being a Hart finalist. I've always felt Clapper is a bit underrated simply because people tend to completely overlook his abilities as a forward and the skills he had there that would lend itself to being a strong puck mover. But that's nitpicking somewhat.

 

[jarek]

1. Again, I don't know how much anyone will "slow down" Gretzky over the course of 4+ games. It frankly very rarely happened, especially throughout his Edmonton days in the postseason. I think the line is put together in such a manner that you can see any one of Gretzky, Martinec or Foyston (all were noted high end stickhandlers and puck carriers) handle the puck extremely well and drive offense. No one player is necessarily wholly dependent on another to get them the puck. You also have a huge amount of hockey IQ with those 3 and I think they'll work extremely well with one another, with or without the puck.

Of course, nobody is going to slow down Gretzky to much of an extent - to the point where I feel if you're going to match up against him, it's almost better to just send someone not that important to your team to just get slaughtered. I'm not saying this is the case with MacKay - he was an excellent defensive center. I think he'll do alright against Gretz. I will admit putting Martinec there was a decent move, but I would have wanted someone a *lot* tougher than Foyston because Gretzky - Martinec is about as soft as it gets. The Gretzky line won't be able to do much cycling due to that, as well as the physicality they'll be facing with Langway and Pilote on the ice. I expect my defensemen to win the majority of the board battles against your top line.

2. I think the Getzlaf line is more than capable of playing multiple styles. Nels Stewart, was a noted stickhandler and much faster than previously thought, at least during the best period of his career (Montreal). There isn't a ton of speed on this line but they are ridiculously rugged and play like a team that will put up strong posession numbers once they get down into the cycle game. Yes, Getzlaf is the engine of the line but Stewart is more than capable of handling the disc and I think they can either make headway with the transition game or play a more traditional dump and chase game with a guy like Broadbent playing extremely well in that role. My 2nd line is going to make life very miserable for the opposing D on the forecheck and create a lot of havoc in the high traffic areas. Also, you will see Gretzky double shifted with Stewart and Broadbent a handful of times as well to maximize his ES minutes and impact.

As much as I like Broadbent as an all around player and think he'd be a really nice piece on a two-way third line, he's a total black hole offensively relative to Getz and Nels, to the point where he can almost be safely ignored as an offensive threat. Not only can whatever line is out there cheat against Getz, they can also cheat against Nels too, with the expectation that Broadbent won't be able to do much of anything offensively far more often than not. This is a major weakness of this line, especially since it's built to be a scoring line. Yes, they will be extremely difficult to handle in the cycle game, but they have to actually *get* there first, and I don't think that will happen all too often if Getzlaf is the primary puck carrier. Fredrickson's speed will give him absolute fits. This is a major reason why I see my 3rd line having a lot of success matching up against this line.

3. Kennedy wasn't a swift skater. But he was quite quick in short areas from everything I read. He reads as a guy that simply outworked literaelly everyone and had excellent hockey IQ. Yes, he was very rugged, but I don't think for one second he was a straight brawler, offensively or defensively. His ability in the dot will lead to better puck possession for the Bankers and there is more than enough information to see that he was very good in his own end. Obviously he killed a lot of penalties for Hap Day as well. I also think you're selling Kennedy short on him not being close to the "phyiscal beasts" that Nighbor went up against. Kennedy may not be a great skater but he was most certainly a very tough SOB. Furious checker. The only thing more outlandish in Nighbor's time was the brutality in terms of fighting and liberties taken on the whole. I don't think that players in the teens and 20's were any more tough than those guys playing in the 40's and 50's. The game simply evolved a lot to remove some of the most egregious violence out.

Name the guys who Nighbor played against who you'd say Kennedy was tougher than? Nighbor faced a *lot* of abuse during his playing career and he had major success despite that. I don't think he will be perturbed by Kennedy's physicality at all, nor do I think Kennedy's physicality will be a particular factor against Nighbor. I just think Kennedy is a poor matchup against Nighbor. Nighbor will simply out-finesse him most of the time I feel.

4. No doubt. Coffey is the 2nd greatest offensive Dman ever. It would be near impossible to replicate his offensive impact unless you had a Bobby Orr or Red Kelly type on the back end. But Clapper in many ways is a slightly poor man's version of Kelly in that he had success at forward and then transitioned into an impact Dman who remained a threat offensively. Obviously Kelly has more of a resume on D but Clapper also didn't start playing on the blueline until he was 31 years old and still managed to be a 4 time AS there with 2 of those years being a Hart finalist. I've always felt Clapper is a bit underrated simply because people tend to completely overlook his abilities as a forward and the skills he had there that would lend itself to being a strong puck mover. But that's nitpicking somewhat.

I won't argue with much of this and I do agree that guys who played multiple positions in their careers for a significant amount of time get underrated here - my boy Mohns included. I would say Clapper, Mohns and even Kelly had two ATD careers at different positions. There's probably quote a few guys who fit this bill. It's hard to judge just how much that should affect how we view them overall and at whatever position they end up playing.

That being said, for whatever it's worth I do feel my forwards will get more help from their defensemen in transitioning the puck from defense to offense than yours will. Pilote being better than Clapper as a puck mover should be no contest, and then the combined ability of Pospisil - Mohns should outdo whatever Stapleton can muster, and then as good as Frank Patrick was, I don't think Sologubov should be considered too far off in the offensive game due to how ridiculously dominant he was during his playing days. Again, I'm not real sure how much it will matter, but given that I think there is a considerable difference here, it's worth noting.

For reference, Pospisil and Sologubov's offensive resumes:

Pospisil:

Offensive Accomplishments
Czech League
Points: 5th (1968), 5th (1971), 5th (1972), 9th (1970)

Percentages (VS1): 79.2 (1968), 79.2 (1971), 73.1 (1970), 71.4 (1972)

Offensive Accomplishments Among Defensemen
Czech League
Points: 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 1st (1972), 1st (1973), 1st (1974), 1st (1975), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1977)

Percentages (VS1): 100 (1968), 100 (1971)*, 100 (1972), 100 (1973), 100 (1974), 100 (1975), 86.4 (1970), 83.4 (1977)
*144.8% of 2nd place Suchy

World Championships
1968: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1970: 2nd (VS1: 40%)
1971: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1972: 1st
1973: 3rd (VS1: 64.3%)
1976: 6th (VS1: 57.1%)
1977: 2nd (VS1: 85.7%)

Olympics
1972: 2nd (VS1: 83.3%)
1976: 1st (should probably not be considered because he was caught using banned substances)

Sologubov:

Percentages are all Vs1 unless > 100%, then Vs2.. they are also among defensemen, except when noted

USSR:

1950: 1st (233%)
1951: 2nd (83%)
1952: 1st (300%), 5th overall (41%)
1953: 1st (186%)
1954: 1st (171%)
1955: 1st (150%)
1956: 3rd (63%)
1957: 2nd (86%)
1958: 1st (160%)
1959: 1st (140%)
1960: 1st (125%)
1961: 2nd (75%)
1962: 1st (106%), 1st in assists (120%)
1963: 7th (67%), 1st in assists (117%)

WEC-A:

1955: 2nd (71%), 1st in assists (200%)
1957: 1st (171%), 8th overall (67%), 1st in assists (150%)

Olympics:

1960: 1st (129%), 1st in assists (133%)

 

[Dreakmur]

Am I the only one who thinks it's just silly to use anyone other than Nighbor against Gretzky? I mean, why draft him if this isn't how you're going to use him?

 

[jarek]

Am I the only one who thinks it's just silly to use anyone other than Nighbor against Gretzky? I mean, why draft him if this isn't how you're going to use him?

I have to choose between putting Nighbor on Gretzky and relying on a line of Denneny - MacKay - Kane for offense, or the plan I described above.

I mean, when you're voting you can decide for yourself which plan the coaches would use. Or if they'd use a different strategy entirely. I am just laying out a potentiality for how this could go.

Nighbor is obviously a way better player to match against Gretzky, but then I'd also be losing out on a lot of offense by doing that. Unless you believe that Nighbor is so good defensively that he'd check Gretzky to a standstill or maybe even come out on top against him. I suppose that's possible. The Gretzky line features very little in the way of physicality, so they can probably be forced to play a perimeter game where they won't be very dangerous.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nighbor is obviously a way better player to match against Gretzky, but then I'd also be losing out on a lot of offense by doing that. Unless you believe that Nighbor is so good defensively that he'd check Gretzky to a standstill or maybe even come out on top against him. I suppose that's possible. The Gretzky line features very little in the way of physicality, so they can probably be forced to play a perimeter game where they won't be very dangerous.

What offense will you be losing? Nighbor is a guy even you don't think belongs on even a 2nd unit PP unit.

Just like in my series with Beliveau, you're not totally stopping Gretzky. You don't have to. All you have to do is slow him down enough that your team can outscore theirs. You have the center who is probably the best Gretzky match-up of the entire draft, and you're not going to use him in that role.

 

[jarek]

What offense will you be losing? Nighbor is a guy even you don't think belongs on even a 2nd unit PP unit.

Just like in my series with Beliveau, you're not totally stopping Gretzky. You don't have to. All you have to do is slow him down enough that your team can outscore theirs. You have the center who is probably the best Gretzky match-up of the entire draft, and you're not going to use him in that role.

For anyone who separates regular season from playoff scoring, Nighbor is one of the better playoff scorers of all time. He ranks 16th (!) all time in the HOH playoff performers list. Although I suppose he did do that while putting up his usual dominant defensive game. Maybe given this, perhaps I *should* put him on the PP.

For what it's worth, it's not that I don't think Nighbor belongs on an ATD PP unit - I just think his game is far better suited to ES play. He reads to me like a guy who played very much like Pavel Datsyuk, who dominated ES play at his best with his ability to steal and control the puck.

Alright, fine.

Krutov - Nighbor - Nevin will play against the Gretzky line, and we'll still have Kapustin - Fredrickson - Nedomansky play against the Getzlaf line.

That leaves the primary scoring line of Denneny - MacKay - Kane. Should MacKay falter, we have McKenney, a respectable playoff scorer with an ES VsX7 of over 75 who could take over, and if the matchup against Kennedy is really going poorly, Pete Mahovlich can step in to add some extra muscle to the lineup. He also happens to be a decent playoff performer as well.

I would like to reinforce that with Arkady Chernyshev on our coaching staff, we have a man who had a great ability of analyzing the other team to find weaknesses. I believe Chernyshev will ensure the best possible lineup that we can put out there against the Bankers will be out there - regardless of whatever lineup you feel that is.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think at the end of the day, this comes down to Gretzky, Roy and Kennedy. The Bankers are a superior team in most areas, be it by a lot or a little bit. And we have the best collection of postseason performers in the draft. Gretzky and Roy together is a ridiculously tall order because they are the 2 greatest playoff performers of all time and are on the ice impacting the game more than anyone else, each and every game. Gretzky mainly on the offensive side and Roy defensively speaking.

So even IF you can manage to slow down 99, which is about as far from a sure thing here as any, you still have to contend wit the greatest money goalie ever. Then Ted Kennedy, 9th overall, all time on the HoH postseason performers list is my 3rd line C. Who's slowing him down from doing what he did best (which is raise his game come playoff time)? Vlad Martinec was as good as just about any Soviet on the international circuits. Foyston is one of the very few pre consolidation players who can stand next to Frank Nighbor as a postseason player and not look out of place. Getzlaf has a strong playoff resume. My top pairing is very battle tested. Stapleton and White may never have won a Cup together but they were monumentally good against the Soviets in the 72 Summit series and obviously one of the better real life pairings available. Patrick and Griffis played together for years and won multiple Cups.

Up and down the lineup the Bankers are battle tested and sport great chemistry and deployment. And at the end of the day I think Gretzky and Roy are going to do what they did best. Dominate big games and lead their team to a victory.

 

[jarek]

- Nighbor vs. Gretzky is about as good as it gets when it comes to slowing down or even stopping Gretzky. That his line doesn't feature a great deal of physicality means that it may be possible to keep them to a perimeter game where they aren't that dangerous. To compound matters, Nighbor and Krutov form a very dangerous counter-attacking duo that will cause odd-man rushes the other way should the puck get turned over.

- The Bankers' second line is good but it features a predictable attack with the majority of the offense going through Getzlaf. As such, as long as Getzlaf can be slowed down or even stopped, that line's offensive firepower can be minimized. I think Fredrickson, especially with his speed and real life success vs. Howie Morenz, can dominate Getzlaf. And once again, the Fredrickson line features a great deal of speed which should be a factor in that matchup.

- That leaves the MacKay line vs. the Bankers' bottom two lines. Unlike with Nighbor, I don't like the matchup of MacKay vs. Kennedy so I would seek to avoid that as much as possible, but it is probably unavoidable. There is a very real chance in this series at some point that Mahovlich draws in to play with Denneny and Kane in order to have a better matchup against Kennedy.

- Kingsman not only has a better group on defense overall, but there is better puck movement to help out the forwards on all but arguably the 3rd pairs. This will probably impact Gretzky the most as he played with a very dominant offensive defenseman in Paul Coffey that really helped bolster that offense. By the same token, the superior puck movement from Kingsman's back end should make it much easier to transition from defense to offense, at least compared to the Bankers.

- Chernyshev is something of an x-factor here. His ability to analyze the opposing team for weaknesses to exploit should ensure that not only does the most appropriate lineup possible get iced, but that the best possible matchups also are used. Afterall, it is the coaches that make those decisions, not GMs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

This is the toughest series to decide for me by far.I already finished my voting results on my paper except for this one, re-reading it now and voting shortly thereafter.

Good job to both GMs, both are deserving of advancing.

 

[jarek]

Congrats IE. Going to guess my underwhelming PP was my undoing!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Congrats IE. Going to guess my underwhelming PP was my undoing!

Thanks J. You apparently were pretty close to me in votes. You definitely were one of a handful of teams I wasn't wanting to face that early in the process. You built a pretty darn strong unit top to bottom.