Jim Coleman Conference Finals: Pittsburgh Bankers (1) vs Kenora Thistles (1)
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"You're a boring old man"
Home Arena:
Duquesne Gardens
Pittsburgh Bankers Team:
Head Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternate Captain: Dit Clapper
Alternate Captain: Ted Kennedy
Forwards:
Frank Foyston - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Vladimir Martinec
Claude Giroux - Nels Stewart - Punch Broadbent
Sid Smith - Ted Kennedy (A) - Ed Westfall
Bob Bourne - Ryan Getzlaf - Wilf Paiement
Extras:
Phil Kessel
Nikita Kucherov
Rick Macleish
Defensemen:
Jacques Laperriere (19+0+5=24 min/night) - Dit Clapper (A) (19+4+2=25 min/night)
Pat Stapleton (17+2+2=21 min/night) - Bill White (17+0+5=22 min/night)
Frank Patrick (13+2+0=15 min/night) - Si Griffis (13+0+0 =13 min/night)
Extras:
Craig Hartsburg
Goalies:
Patrick Roy
Jonathan Quick
Penalty Kill:
Ted Kennedy - Ed Westfall
Jacques Lapierriere - Bill White
Bob Bourne/Wayne Gretzky - Vladimir Martinec
Pat Stapleton - Dit Clapper
Power Play:
PP 1:
Gretzky - (floating, will move between left half wall and behind the net, and generally pull defensive boxes in his direction) -Elite at role
Stewart - (net front) - Elite at role
Giroux - (right half wall) - I'd say near elite given his career PP totals and usage
Getzlaf - (QB, right point) - 35% of points on PP, plays the point extensively for Ducks. He's at least good.
Clapper - (Trigger, left point) - Good at role
*4 Players capable of taking draws on the 1st unit.
PP 2:
Kennedy (right half wall)
Martinec (left half wall)
Foyston (Slot, net front)
Patrick (trigger, right point)
Stapleton (QB, left point)
Last edited:
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Kenora THISTLES
1907 Stanley Cup Champions
Home Rink: Thistle Rink (1920), Kenora, Ontario
GM: papershoes & Hawkey Town 18
Coach: Cecil Hart
Captain: Steve Yzerman
Alternates: Toe Blake, Butch Bouchard, Daniel Alfredsson
GM: papershoes & Hawkey Town 18
Coach: Cecil Hart
Captain: Steve Yzerman
Alternates: Toe Blake, Butch Bouchard, Daniel Alfredsson
#6 Hector "Toe" Blake (A) - #19 Steve Yzerman (C) - #5 Bernie "Boom Boom" Geoffrion
#14 Woody Dumart - #71 Evgeni Malkin - #11 Daniel Alfredsson (A)
#9 Clark Gillies - #8 Igor Larionov - #10 Tony Amonte
Dave Andreychuk - #10 Edgar Laprade - #6 Floyd Curry
extras: Neal Broten, Tommy Smith, #44 Stephane Richer
#4 Leonard "Red" Kelly - #3 Emile "Butch" Bouchard (A)
#3 Vladimir Lutchenko - #2 Jimmy Thomson
#20 Jimmy Watson - #76 PK Subban
extras: #7 Gennady Tsygankov
#1 Walter "Turk" Broda
#1 Roberto Luongo
Powerplay:
PP1: Dave Andreychuk - Steve Yzerman - Evgeni Malkin - Red Kelly - Bernie Geoffrion
PP2: Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson - PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko
PP2: Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson - PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko
Penalty Kill:
PK1: Edgar Laprade - Floyd Curry - Vladimir Lutchenko/Red Kelly - Butch Bouchard
PK2: Toe Blake - Steve Yzerman - Red Kelly/Jimmy Watson - Jimmy Thomson
PK3: Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
PK2: Toe Blake - Steve Yzerman - Red Kelly/Jimmy Watson - Jimmy Thomson
PK3: Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
Regular Season Minutes Chart
| Forwards | ||||
| Player | ES | PP | PK | Total |
| T. Blake | 14 | 2 | 2 | 18 |
| S. Yzerman | 14 | 4 | 2 | 20 |
| B. Geoffrion | 14 | 4 | 18 | |
| W. Dumart | 16.5 | 16.5 | ||
| E. Malkin | 13 | 5 | 18 | |
| D. Alfredsson | 13 | 3 | 1 | 17 |
| C. Gillies | 12 | 12 | ||
| I. Larionov | 12 | 2 | 1 | 15 |
| T. Amonte | 12 | 12 | ||
| D. Andreychuk | 3.5 | 5 | 8.5 | |
| E. Laprade | 7 | 4 | 11 | |
| F. Curry | 7 | 4 | 11 | |
| TOTAL | 138 | 25 | 14 | 177 |
| Defense | ||||
| Player | ES | PP | PK | Total |
| R. Kelly | 19 | 5 | 2 | 26 |
| B. Bouchard | 17 | 4 | 21 | |
| V. Lutchenko | 14 | 2 | 3 | 19 |
| J. Thomson | 17 | 3 | 20 | |
| J. Watson | 13 | 2 | 15 | |
| P.K. Subban | 12 | 3 | 15 | |
| TOTAL | 92 | 10 | 14 | 116 |
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
@Hawkey Town 18
Looking forward to our series sir. Especially as somebody who's long been pushing the narrative on goalies being underrated here, it's great to see a Roy vs Broda matchup.
Looking forward to our series sir. Especially as somebody who's long been pushing the narrative on goalies being underrated here, it's great to see a Roy vs Broda matchup.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Coaching:
-This is a unique matchup in that the Bankers and Thistles both have coaches who's careers overlapped almost entirely during the late 20's and early 30's. Cecil Hart did win back to back cups with the Canadians but they had much superior players to the teams Tommy Gorman won the SC with. Hart does have a better regular season track record, but again I think people have to keep things in context. The Blackhawk and Maroon teams Gorman was coaching simply didn't have near the same quality as the rest of the league. Which in turn is why it's all the more impressive that Gorman won back a back to back title with 2 separate teams. Gorman was 13-8-4, which is a big step up from his regular season resume of 1 game over .500. Hart actually goes from a coach who's .590 in the regular season to a losing record in the postseason at 16-17-4 .486. So I think when you factor in Gorman's real life ability to get the best out of mediocre teams coupled with a much superior roster here than he ever enjoyed in real life. Plus give the edge to the guy who got it done a much better rate in the playoffs. I think this is a slight advantage for the Bankers.
Leadership/Intangibles:
-Steve Yzerman certainly is one of the greatest captains to ever play the game, so you have to give the Thistles some points for top end. But I think that's where the two teams lose one another IMO. The Thistles A's are Blake, Bouchard and Alfredsson, none of whom are really near the upper echelons of all time captains. The Bankers have, in the minds of many, 3 of the top 10-15 captains ever to play the game. Gretzky, Clapper, Kennedy. Frank Foyston was one of the very best captains of his generation. I belive he spent his entire career in Seattle (9 years) wearing the C. Ed Westfall (from a really good bio by @BraveCanadian ) is another guy who has some stellar things written about him. He was the very first captain in Islander history from 72-77. He'd be a great A here and he doesn't even get one on the Bankers. Getzlaf has been wearing the C in Anaheim since 2010. Even Patrick Roy was a firebrand on the ice. Having somebody with his confidence and track record manning the net has an absolutely calming effect on the skater in front of him.
And when you look at the absolutely insane amount of elite playoff talent on the Bankers, it's hard not to give them a big leg up in the clutch department. Gretzky, Roy, and Kennedy were 1, 2, 9 in the most recent HoH greatest postseason players of all time project. So you have the greatest skater in postseason history, and on the back end, the greatest netminder (and 2nd overall all time) in tournament history, on one team. Throw in #9 all time on the Bankers 3rd line and nobody can come close to touching that kind of peak postseason performance. Frank Foyston was 2nd in his generation, only to Frank Nighbor and was 40th on the HoH list. The Thistles would normally have a leg up with Red Kelly (14th on HoH list), Turk Broda (17th) and Boom Boom (25th) on their roster but unfortunately for them, they are squaring off with the trio on the top line. I have to give Pitt the leg up here.
Forwards:
1st Line:
-Both teams have strong top 6's IMO. From a scoring standpoint we have to do more rough estimates for the Bankers wings (Foyston, Martinec).
Gretzky - 155.8
Foyston - 84.6 (estimated using VsX scoring system with his 7 best PCHA seasons)
Martinec - ?
Geoffrion - 89.9
Yzerman - 93.2
Blake - 86.3
Obviously Gretzky is going to give any lineup a massive leg up down the middle. He's more than 60 points clear of Yzerman. And the Thisles can't use their best defensive C (Yzerman) against Gretzky in this series for multiple reasons. One, it's depriving Kenora their top scoring line, from playing a scoring line role. And secondly the Thistles simply don't have enough scoring in their bottom 6 to risk using Yzerman and company in a more defensive manner. Which really leaves the Thistles using Larionov or Laprade on 99. I say good luck with that. In the previous 2 series, Gretzky has faced C's such as Fedorov, Keon, MacKay, and Nighbor and prevailed. Plus, Gretzky is nearly universal in being thought of as the greatest postseason player of all time. He's simply going to produce and I think in this series as much or more than the previous 2 due to the matchups.
Foyston came in at a 84.6 when I used Sturm's VsX style points systems. He had (best 7) seasons of 100, 100, 88.5, 85.2, 82.8, 70 and 65.5, all during his PCHA time with Seattle. I think something more around 80 is a bestter overall estimate of his translated scoring ability to more modern times. He had a couple of elite scoring seasons for sure but overall he was more of a higher end secondary scoring threat for his teams. I think an 80 is very fair.
Martinec I'm not quite as sure on because we're talking about European hockey. It seems harder to translate but if you look at some of the other wingers drafted near him and on the HoH list who were slanted more offensively, you get guys like Pat Kane (89.2), Mark Recchi (88.3), Sweeney Schriner (91.3). His scoring finishes in the premier Czech league in the 70's were 1, 2, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7. Martinec's true value comes in that he was every bit as dominant as any Russian during the golden era (70s) on the international stage. @TheDevilMadeMe had this wonderful breakdown of Martinec in comparison to Mikhailov and Maltsev and he stacks up extremely well against both.
I'd wager Martinec is at least a mid 80's VsX type player here. But his biggest acclaim is how dominant he was on the international stage. He's a clutch performer and so apt at scoring that was intentionally injured by the Russians in 1974. I think he and Gretzky would be an absolute treat to watch with combination play given their wizard like abilities in the offensive zone.
You have the greatest playoff performer ever in Gretzky, another all time great in Foyston and one of the very best 2-3 interntional players in WC's and Olympic's throughout the toughest era in Europe's history (1970's) on one line.
Obviously the Thistles have more defensive ability when looking at the top lines but I don't think they'll be seeing much of one another at even strength so the focus is more centered around offensive output and I think the Bankers are quite a bit ahead thanks largely to 99. And again, I don't see ton in the bottom 6 defensively that will keep the Bankers top line from producing a good to great amount of points in the series. I think in large part to Gretzky and the line's dominance in terms of postseason play, the Bankers enjoy the advantage.
2nd Lines:
I like the Thistles 2nd line actually. Malkin is a strong 2nd line scoring player in the ATD at this point. And he's got some real value as a postseason player. Alfredsson is a solid two way player and leader. Dumart adds grit and great defensive ability to the line and will chip in offensively.
Looking at VsX to get an idea of scoring ability:
Malkin - 93.7
Alfredsson - 82.3
Dumart - 72.7
Stewart - 90.3
Giroux - 88.0 (100 this past season at LW)
Broadbent - ?
Broadbent, obviously had the one elite season with a Rocket and Art Ross to his name, but otherwise was much more of a checking line type player who excelled as a defensive F and aggressive forechecker. It's hard to get a handle on him but I'd wager a 55-60 score is about right given some of his scoring finishes in the NHA and then NHL. In essance he's a lot like Dumart in sytle although with less consistancy as a regular season scorer.
Malkin is the best postseason performer of the 6 guys. Nobody else really stands out in that regard for Kenora. Stewart was a beast in the 1926 SC finals, earning a Retro Conn Smythe, and was decent in 28, 36 and 38 but really only as the 1 elite postseason. Giroux is coming off a pretty terrible 1st round exit but previously was a point per game player and solid all around guy for Philly. Broadbent was solid IMO. Had a couple of strong playoffs, including 1923 playoff when he bagged 6 goals and an assist in 6 games.
I do think it's important to note that there is some real life chemistry with Stewart and Broadbent. They played 2 seasons together including Stewart's all time great 1925-26 season when he won the Hart, Retro Smythe and Cup with the Maroons. Broadbent was Stewart's regular RW those years and it seemed like from all the game reports I have from my Stewart bio, that they were a deadly pair.
Overall though I have to give the edge to Kenora here. Malkin is better than Stewart, although scoring wise both are very close. Giroux is obviously a much superior scorer than Dumart but Dumart also brings great defensive ability to the table. Alfredsson is a better scorer than Broadbent by a wide margin, but I do think Broadbent is better as a checker and defensive presence.
3rd Lines:
-I think the bottom 6 is where Pittsburgh separates a bit, mainly because of the C depth, which was by design.
Is Clarke Gillies equal or better than Sid Smith? I don't think so. Smith is a better scorer first off, was a 3 time postseason AS (1st and a pair of 2nd places) and won multiple Lady Byng awards so you know he's not gong to take a stupid penalty or really a penalty at all. He only had 94 career PIM's in 600+ games. Plus Sid Smith was a 1st team AS over players like Ted Lindsay (missed part of the season to be fair), Dickie Moore, and Bert Olmstead so it's not like he was in a particularly weak era for the position.
Like the 2nd line, the Bankers enjoy more real life chemistry, this time with Smith and Ted Kennedy who played the better part of a decade together in Toronto. Obviously that familiarity will aid a bit in a tactical sense.
The biggest gap is Kennedy over Larionov. Larionov is quite capable (pretty strong IMO) as an ATD 3rd line C but he simply can't hold a candle to Kennedy in an all time sense. Kennedy is one of the greatest postseason players of all time. One of the greatest leaders. Hart winner. 5 Cups to his name. A borderline top 20 C all time in the eyes of most. Like Larionov he wasn't a great scorer but was also excellent across the board in other areas. Kennedy can be used in a more shutdown role or offensively against weaker bottom 6 type players and excel. In a 24 team draft you could put him on a 1st line and he wouldn't be totally out of place. On the 3rd line, he offers incredible value, especially at even strength.
Amonte and Westfall are two different styles of players. Amonte was a solid scorer. On a 3rd line he's above average in terms of offensive output. Westfall is one of the greatest pure defensive forwards to ever play. Consider what he did to Bobby Hull in the 1970 conference finals. Over the entire series Bobby Hull only registed 9 total shots, 0 goals and 2 assists and was a -3 in 4 games. The Bruins swept the Hawks. Hull got so irritated by Westfall's defensive ability he took serveral dumb penalties in response down the stretch. You better believe Westfall will be working hard to slow down Blake and Geoffrion and is one of handful of players who has a legitimate chance at making them largely irrelevant.
Overall I think the Bankers enjoy a pretty clear advantage between 3rd lines given all we know.
4th Lines:
-I think the Thistles enjoy a very slight advantage on the wings here mainly because Andreychuk is in theory better than Bourne but most of Chuck's value is tied to the PP, whereas Bourne is the better all around player at ES IMO. Paiment and Curry are a wash IMO. Again, obviously the biggest gap is at C where Getzlaf towers above Laprade both literally and figuratively. Getzlaf has a 7 year VsX of 83.7. He's a solid defensive player. Has a better than average playoff resume. He's a legitimate 2nd line player in the ATD and as we expected, creates quite the mismatch here.
Conclusion:
-I think the top 6's are fairly close overall. The Bankers have a slightly stronger top line IMO with the Thistles enjoying a slight edge on the 2nd. But the C depth is what turns the tide overall here and the Bankers outclass the Thistles on both bottom 6 lines in my estimation.
-This is a unique matchup in that the Bankers and Thistles both have coaches who's careers overlapped almost entirely during the late 20's and early 30's. Cecil Hart did win back to back cups with the Canadians but they had much superior players to the teams Tommy Gorman won the SC with. Hart does have a better regular season track record, but again I think people have to keep things in context. The Blackhawk and Maroon teams Gorman was coaching simply didn't have near the same quality as the rest of the league. Which in turn is why it's all the more impressive that Gorman won back a back to back title with 2 separate teams. Gorman was 13-8-4, which is a big step up from his regular season resume of 1 game over .500. Hart actually goes from a coach who's .590 in the regular season to a losing record in the postseason at 16-17-4 .486. So I think when you factor in Gorman's real life ability to get the best out of mediocre teams coupled with a much superior roster here than he ever enjoyed in real life. Plus give the edge to the guy who got it done a much better rate in the playoffs. I think this is a slight advantage for the Bankers.
Leadership/Intangibles:
-Steve Yzerman certainly is one of the greatest captains to ever play the game, so you have to give the Thistles some points for top end. But I think that's where the two teams lose one another IMO. The Thistles A's are Blake, Bouchard and Alfredsson, none of whom are really near the upper echelons of all time captains. The Bankers have, in the minds of many, 3 of the top 10-15 captains ever to play the game. Gretzky, Clapper, Kennedy. Frank Foyston was one of the very best captains of his generation. I belive he spent his entire career in Seattle (9 years) wearing the C. Ed Westfall (from a really good bio by @BraveCanadian ) is another guy who has some stellar things written about him. He was the very first captain in Islander history from 72-77. He'd be a great A here and he doesn't even get one on the Bankers. Getzlaf has been wearing the C in Anaheim since 2010. Even Patrick Roy was a firebrand on the ice. Having somebody with his confidence and track record manning the net has an absolutely calming effect on the skater in front of him.
And when you look at the absolutely insane amount of elite playoff talent on the Bankers, it's hard not to give them a big leg up in the clutch department. Gretzky, Roy, and Kennedy were 1, 2, 9 in the most recent HoH greatest postseason players of all time project. So you have the greatest skater in postseason history, and on the back end, the greatest netminder (and 2nd overall all time) in tournament history, on one team. Throw in #9 all time on the Bankers 3rd line and nobody can come close to touching that kind of peak postseason performance. Frank Foyston was 2nd in his generation, only to Frank Nighbor and was 40th on the HoH list. The Thistles would normally have a leg up with Red Kelly (14th on HoH list), Turk Broda (17th) and Boom Boom (25th) on their roster but unfortunately for them, they are squaring off with the trio on the top line. I have to give Pitt the leg up here.
Forwards:
1st Line:
-Both teams have strong top 6's IMO. From a scoring standpoint we have to do more rough estimates for the Bankers wings (Foyston, Martinec).
Gretzky - 155.8
Foyston - 84.6 (estimated using VsX scoring system with his 7 best PCHA seasons)
Martinec - ?
Geoffrion - 89.9
Yzerman - 93.2
Blake - 86.3
Obviously Gretzky is going to give any lineup a massive leg up down the middle. He's more than 60 points clear of Yzerman. And the Thisles can't use their best defensive C (Yzerman) against Gretzky in this series for multiple reasons. One, it's depriving Kenora their top scoring line, from playing a scoring line role. And secondly the Thistles simply don't have enough scoring in their bottom 6 to risk using Yzerman and company in a more defensive manner. Which really leaves the Thistles using Larionov or Laprade on 99. I say good luck with that. In the previous 2 series, Gretzky has faced C's such as Fedorov, Keon, MacKay, and Nighbor and prevailed. Plus, Gretzky is nearly universal in being thought of as the greatest postseason player of all time. He's simply going to produce and I think in this series as much or more than the previous 2 due to the matchups.
Foyston came in at a 84.6 when I used Sturm's VsX style points systems. He had (best 7) seasons of 100, 100, 88.5, 85.2, 82.8, 70 and 65.5, all during his PCHA time with Seattle. I think something more around 80 is a bestter overall estimate of his translated scoring ability to more modern times. He had a couple of elite scoring seasons for sure but overall he was more of a higher end secondary scoring threat for his teams. I think an 80 is very fair.
Martinec I'm not quite as sure on because we're talking about European hockey. It seems harder to translate but if you look at some of the other wingers drafted near him and on the HoH list who were slanted more offensively, you get guys like Pat Kane (89.2), Mark Recchi (88.3), Sweeney Schriner (91.3). His scoring finishes in the premier Czech league in the 70's were 1, 2, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7. Martinec's true value comes in that he was every bit as dominant as any Russian during the golden era (70s) on the international stage. @TheDevilMadeMe had this wonderful breakdown of Martinec in comparison to Mikhailov and Maltsev and he stacks up extremely well against both.
I'd wager Martinec is at least a mid 80's VsX type player here. But his biggest acclaim is how dominant he was on the international stage. He's a clutch performer and so apt at scoring that was intentionally injured by the Russians in 1974. I think he and Gretzky would be an absolute treat to watch with combination play given their wizard like abilities in the offensive zone.
You have the greatest playoff performer ever in Gretzky, another all time great in Foyston and one of the very best 2-3 interntional players in WC's and Olympic's throughout the toughest era in Europe's history (1970's) on one line.
Obviously the Thistles have more defensive ability when looking at the top lines but I don't think they'll be seeing much of one another at even strength so the focus is more centered around offensive output and I think the Bankers are quite a bit ahead thanks largely to 99. And again, I don't see ton in the bottom 6 defensively that will keep the Bankers top line from producing a good to great amount of points in the series. I think in large part to Gretzky and the line's dominance in terms of postseason play, the Bankers enjoy the advantage.
2nd Lines:
I like the Thistles 2nd line actually. Malkin is a strong 2nd line scoring player in the ATD at this point. And he's got some real value as a postseason player. Alfredsson is a solid two way player and leader. Dumart adds grit and great defensive ability to the line and will chip in offensively.
Looking at VsX to get an idea of scoring ability:
Malkin - 93.7
Alfredsson - 82.3
Dumart - 72.7
Stewart - 90.3
Giroux - 88.0 (100 this past season at LW)
Broadbent - ?
Broadbent, obviously had the one elite season with a Rocket and Art Ross to his name, but otherwise was much more of a checking line type player who excelled as a defensive F and aggressive forechecker. It's hard to get a handle on him but I'd wager a 55-60 score is about right given some of his scoring finishes in the NHA and then NHL. In essance he's a lot like Dumart in sytle although with less consistancy as a regular season scorer.
Malkin is the best postseason performer of the 6 guys. Nobody else really stands out in that regard for Kenora. Stewart was a beast in the 1926 SC finals, earning a Retro Conn Smythe, and was decent in 28, 36 and 38 but really only as the 1 elite postseason. Giroux is coming off a pretty terrible 1st round exit but previously was a point per game player and solid all around guy for Philly. Broadbent was solid IMO. Had a couple of strong playoffs, including 1923 playoff when he bagged 6 goals and an assist in 6 games.
I do think it's important to note that there is some real life chemistry with Stewart and Broadbent. They played 2 seasons together including Stewart's all time great 1925-26 season when he won the Hart, Retro Smythe and Cup with the Maroons. Broadbent was Stewart's regular RW those years and it seemed like from all the game reports I have from my Stewart bio, that they were a deadly pair.
Overall though I have to give the edge to Kenora here. Malkin is better than Stewart, although scoring wise both are very close. Giroux is obviously a much superior scorer than Dumart but Dumart also brings great defensive ability to the table. Alfredsson is a better scorer than Broadbent by a wide margin, but I do think Broadbent is better as a checker and defensive presence.
3rd Lines:
-I think the bottom 6 is where Pittsburgh separates a bit, mainly because of the C depth, which was by design.
Is Clarke Gillies equal or better than Sid Smith? I don't think so. Smith is a better scorer first off, was a 3 time postseason AS (1st and a pair of 2nd places) and won multiple Lady Byng awards so you know he's not gong to take a stupid penalty or really a penalty at all. He only had 94 career PIM's in 600+ games. Plus Sid Smith was a 1st team AS over players like Ted Lindsay (missed part of the season to be fair), Dickie Moore, and Bert Olmstead so it's not like he was in a particularly weak era for the position.
Like the 2nd line, the Bankers enjoy more real life chemistry, this time with Smith and Ted Kennedy who played the better part of a decade together in Toronto. Obviously that familiarity will aid a bit in a tactical sense.
The biggest gap is Kennedy over Larionov. Larionov is quite capable (pretty strong IMO) as an ATD 3rd line C but he simply can't hold a candle to Kennedy in an all time sense. Kennedy is one of the greatest postseason players of all time. One of the greatest leaders. Hart winner. 5 Cups to his name. A borderline top 20 C all time in the eyes of most. Like Larionov he wasn't a great scorer but was also excellent across the board in other areas. Kennedy can be used in a more shutdown role or offensively against weaker bottom 6 type players and excel. In a 24 team draft you could put him on a 1st line and he wouldn't be totally out of place. On the 3rd line, he offers incredible value, especially at even strength.
Amonte and Westfall are two different styles of players. Amonte was a solid scorer. On a 3rd line he's above average in terms of offensive output. Westfall is one of the greatest pure defensive forwards to ever play. Consider what he did to Bobby Hull in the 1970 conference finals. Over the entire series Bobby Hull only registed 9 total shots, 0 goals and 2 assists and was a -3 in 4 games. The Bruins swept the Hawks. Hull got so irritated by Westfall's defensive ability he took serveral dumb penalties in response down the stretch. You better believe Westfall will be working hard to slow down Blake and Geoffrion and is one of handful of players who has a legitimate chance at making them largely irrelevant.
Overall I think the Bankers enjoy a pretty clear advantage between 3rd lines given all we know.
4th Lines:
-I think the Thistles enjoy a very slight advantage on the wings here mainly because Andreychuk is in theory better than Bourne but most of Chuck's value is tied to the PP, whereas Bourne is the better all around player at ES IMO. Paiment and Curry are a wash IMO. Again, obviously the biggest gap is at C where Getzlaf towers above Laprade both literally and figuratively. Getzlaf has a 7 year VsX of 83.7. He's a solid defensive player. Has a better than average playoff resume. He's a legitimate 2nd line player in the ATD and as we expected, creates quite the mismatch here.
Conclusion:
-I think the top 6's are fairly close overall. The Bankers have a slightly stronger top line IMO with the Thistles enjoying a slight edge on the 2nd. But the C depth is what turns the tide overall here and the Bankers outclass the Thistles on both bottom 6 lines in my estimation.
Dreakmur
Registered User
I've got Foyston with consolidated offensive totals of....
Points - 3rd(1920), 5th(1917), 6th(1921), 7th(1919), 13th(1922), 16th(1915), 16th(1923), 18th(1924), 20th(1918)
Vs.X - 98(1920), 96(1921), 80(1917), 73(1922), 72(1924), 67(1919), 63(1915), 62(1923)
7 season vs.x score of 78.4
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I guess I wasn't too far off with my 80 haha. Thanks for posting the consolidated totals sir.
Dreakmur
Registered User
I know why you think's great to see, but this is a total mismatch. You've got one of the super-elite goalies going against an average one.
I'm not sure what's a bigger mismatch, this or Gretzky vs. Yzerman.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I totally agree. I do think Broda's postseason resume helps him some but obviously there is still a wide gap between he and Roy.
I'm going to get the defensive, goalie and special teams breakdowns down by the end of Sunday. I'm hitting Philly up shortly for some record/vinyl shopping and then a kick ass show later in the evening.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Defense:
-Obviously Red Kelly is the best defensemen in this match up. He's a great two way player and will command a lot of respect from the Bankers. But the Bankers were able to just beat a team that featured Bobby Orr and Tim Horton as its top pair and overall had the best defense in the ATD. While the Thisles have a really good top pair overall and advantage there because of Kelly, the gap is much smaller than in our previous match ups.
Kelly-Bouchard is superior to Laperriere and Clapper because there is a larger gap between Kelly and Clapper than there is from Lappy to Bouchard. Both pairs fit well together, both are battle tested in the postseason, but the advantage has to go to Kenora.
I do think the Bankers have an advantage though in terms of defensive depth. Stapleton-White is a superior 2nd pair tandem for 2 reasons. One, they're simply more talented than Lutchenko-Thompson overall IMO and 2 there is obviously the real life chemistry favoring the Bankers with Stapleton-White. Both played huge minutes in real life at ES. White was arguably the best pure shutdown blueliner in the game during his prime and Stapleton was an able puck mover but really excelled at both ends. Obviously they were hugely important as a pair for Canada against the Russians in the 72 Summit series. I think Pittsburgh has a clear advantage with 2nd pairs.
As for the 3rd pair, again I think this favors the Bankers for the same 2 reasons the 2nd pair did. Patrick and Griffis were teammates for years in Vancouver so there is instant chemistry (see RB's great 2016 bio on Griffis). I think it's a toss up as to who's the best player (Patrick vs Subban) but I definitely think Griffis is superior to Watson in that Griffis was more acclaimed in his day then Watson as during the 70's when he never garnered any AS or Norris recognition of any kind.
Overall, I think the defensive pairings are built very well, with Kenora enjoying an advantage on the top line, but the 2nd and 3rd pairings favor Pittsburgh which, IMO makes this an overall wash.
Goalies:
-I think this is the biggest overall gap in the series. Patrick Roy is the best goalie of all time, IMO, certainly so in the postseason. In the last series I presented many graphics that illustrated how dominant Roy is all time in the playoffs and how underrated he is as a regular season goalie as well, considering the bulk of his career came in the 80's and early 90's, when scoring was through the roof. I love the fact that Roy both carried teams on his back to the Cup (Montreal) and also played very well in front of stacked rosters (Colorado). He excelled in 2 very different era's and was almost always at his absolutely best in the biggest games of his life. You can see that illustrated below.
Broda is overall, an average goalie in a 24 team ATD. Obviously he gets a big bump in the postseason, but even still is a good deal behind Roy here. Roy came in 2nd all time in the HoH top postseason players of all time project. Broda 17th.
It wouldn't surprise me to see the Turk steal a game in this series for Kenora but overall they are still a good ways behind head to head when looking at the netminders.
-I think at this point we're looking at a series that sees the Bankers better overall among F's (thanks largely to the top end and depth at C), a wash when looking at the overall depth of defenses, and ahead again between the pipes.
-Obviously Red Kelly is the best defensemen in this match up. He's a great two way player and will command a lot of respect from the Bankers. But the Bankers were able to just beat a team that featured Bobby Orr and Tim Horton as its top pair and overall had the best defense in the ATD. While the Thisles have a really good top pair overall and advantage there because of Kelly, the gap is much smaller than in our previous match ups.
Kelly-Bouchard is superior to Laperriere and Clapper because there is a larger gap between Kelly and Clapper than there is from Lappy to Bouchard. Both pairs fit well together, both are battle tested in the postseason, but the advantage has to go to Kenora.
I do think the Bankers have an advantage though in terms of defensive depth. Stapleton-White is a superior 2nd pair tandem for 2 reasons. One, they're simply more talented than Lutchenko-Thompson overall IMO and 2 there is obviously the real life chemistry favoring the Bankers with Stapleton-White. Both played huge minutes in real life at ES. White was arguably the best pure shutdown blueliner in the game during his prime and Stapleton was an able puck mover but really excelled at both ends. Obviously they were hugely important as a pair for Canada against the Russians in the 72 Summit series. I think Pittsburgh has a clear advantage with 2nd pairs.
As for the 3rd pair, again I think this favors the Bankers for the same 2 reasons the 2nd pair did. Patrick and Griffis were teammates for years in Vancouver so there is instant chemistry (see RB's great 2016 bio on Griffis). I think it's a toss up as to who's the best player (Patrick vs Subban) but I definitely think Griffis is superior to Watson in that Griffis was more acclaimed in his day then Watson as during the 70's when he never garnered any AS or Norris recognition of any kind.
Overall, I think the defensive pairings are built very well, with Kenora enjoying an advantage on the top line, but the 2nd and 3rd pairings favor Pittsburgh which, IMO makes this an overall wash.
Goalies:
-I think this is the biggest overall gap in the series. Patrick Roy is the best goalie of all time, IMO, certainly so in the postseason. In the last series I presented many graphics that illustrated how dominant Roy is all time in the playoffs and how underrated he is as a regular season goalie as well, considering the bulk of his career came in the 80's and early 90's, when scoring was through the roof. I love the fact that Roy both carried teams on his back to the Cup (Montreal) and also played very well in front of stacked rosters (Colorado). He excelled in 2 very different era's and was almost always at his absolutely best in the biggest games of his life. You can see that illustrated below.
Broda is overall, an average goalie in a 24 team ATD. Obviously he gets a big bump in the postseason, but even still is a good deal behind Roy here. Roy came in 2nd all time in the HoH top postseason players of all time project. Broda 17th.
It wouldn't surprise me to see the Turk steal a game in this series for Kenora but overall they are still a good ways behind head to head when looking at the netminders.
-I think at this point we're looking at a series that sees the Bankers better overall among F's (thanks largely to the top end and depth at C), a wash when looking at the overall depth of defenses, and ahead again between the pipes.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Special Teams:
-I think the Thistles are one team who isn't really behind the 8 ball and Pitt when it comes to the PP. They have a superior blue line with Red Kelly at QB and Boom Boom (vs Clapper and Getzlaf) as the trigger man but Pittsburgh clearly has the better forwards with Gretzky, Stewart and Giroux vs Yzerman, Malkin and Andreychuk. It's pretty cool to see both teams employing a F on the blue line and both guys are very apt at their roles (Getzlaf as a QB type with Geoffrion booming point shots). I see a similar deal with the 2nd units. Overall, you really can't nit pick much on either team. Each team has great facilitators, good to great net front players, and shoot first types. I'd call the power play a wash overall.
I do think the Bankers come out on top in terms of the PK. Laprade-Curry is certainly a more traditional F pair and quite good, but I don't think it can quite stand up to Kennedy-Westfall, mainly because Westfall is one of the greatest pure PK's all time vs Curry, who while great during his day, isn't usually mentioned when dicussing the best all time in this area. And as I pointed out in my last series vs Toronto, I do think Lapperiere-White is the best pure PK tandem in the ATD. You can see below with the graphs just how much those 2 were used by their respective teams in real and the impact they had killing penalties. It's a brilliant left-right pair, with 2 big, long and defensively slanted players who were both used an elite rate during their careers. Whether it's Kelly or Lutchenko next to Bouchard I don't think the Thistles stack up in terms of overall PK ability. The 2nd units are close overall IMO.
-I think the Thistles are one team who isn't really behind the 8 ball and Pitt when it comes to the PP. They have a superior blue line with Red Kelly at QB and Boom Boom (vs Clapper and Getzlaf) as the trigger man but Pittsburgh clearly has the better forwards with Gretzky, Stewart and Giroux vs Yzerman, Malkin and Andreychuk. It's pretty cool to see both teams employing a F on the blue line and both guys are very apt at their roles (Getzlaf as a QB type with Geoffrion booming point shots). I see a similar deal with the 2nd units. Overall, you really can't nit pick much on either team. Each team has great facilitators, good to great net front players, and shoot first types. I'd call the power play a wash overall.
I do think the Bankers come out on top in terms of the PK. Laprade-Curry is certainly a more traditional F pair and quite good, but I don't think it can quite stand up to Kennedy-Westfall, mainly because Westfall is one of the greatest pure PK's all time vs Curry, who while great during his day, isn't usually mentioned when dicussing the best all time in this area. And as I pointed out in my last series vs Toronto, I do think Lapperiere-White is the best pure PK tandem in the ATD. You can see below with the graphs just how much those 2 were used by their respective teams in real and the impact they had killing penalties. It's a brilliant left-right pair, with 2 big, long and defensively slanted players who were both used an elite rate during their careers. Whether it's Kelly or Lutchenko next to Bouchard I don't think the Thistles stack up in terms of overall PK ability. The 2nd units are close overall IMO.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Overall:
1. Coaching - Slight edge to Pittsburgh. Best case for Kenora is wash overall.
2. Forwards - Advantage to Pittsburgh. Namely because of the elite top end and depth down the middle at C is quite superior to the Thistles group. Kenora doesn't have enough on the wings to counter the advantage down the middle for the Bankers IMO.
3. Defense - Wash overall. Kenora enjoys an advantage on the top pair, but Pittsburgh is ahead on the 2nd and 3rd IMO.
4. Goalies - Moderate advantage to Pittsburgh. Roy is elite. Broda average overall here.
5. Special Teams - Slight advantage to Pittsburgh. PP's are close enough to be called a wash but I think Pitt comes out on top when looking at the PK groups.
1. Coaching - Slight edge to Pittsburgh. Best case for Kenora is wash overall.
2. Forwards - Advantage to Pittsburgh. Namely because of the elite top end and depth down the middle at C is quite superior to the Thistles group. Kenora doesn't have enough on the wings to counter the advantage down the middle for the Bankers IMO.
3. Defense - Wash overall. Kenora enjoys an advantage on the top pair, but Pittsburgh is ahead on the 2nd and 3rd IMO.
4. Goalies - Moderate advantage to Pittsburgh. Roy is elite. Broda average overall here.
5. Special Teams - Slight advantage to Pittsburgh. PP's are close enough to be called a wash but I think Pitt comes out on top when looking at the PK groups.
Dreakmur
Registered User
These guys are probably even. Both seem to get free passes with little evaluation over the years.
Nothing moderate here - this is spectacular advantage for Pittsburgh.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Apologies for my delayed reply, just a lot of real life stuff getting in the way. Thanks to IE for all the info posted. Starting off with a lineup change...
***LINEUP CHANGE***
Woody Dumart will be moved up to the 1st line and Toe Blake down to the 2nd line. Kenora will mostly try to match their 1st line against Pittsburgh's 1st line, and they definitely need Dumart's elite defensive ability to try to limit Gretzky and co. When Kenora cannot get this match up they will throw out their 4th line (with Dumart replacing Andreychuk, and sometime Blake if Dumart unavailable). Laprade and Curry are strong checkers, and likely will see more minutes than usual this series.
***LINEUP CHANGE***
Woody Dumart will be moved up to the 1st line and Toe Blake down to the 2nd line. Kenora will mostly try to match their 1st line against Pittsburgh's 1st line, and they definitely need Dumart's elite defensive ability to try to limit Gretzky and co. When Kenora cannot get this match up they will throw out their 4th line (with Dumart replacing Andreychuk, and sometime Blake if Dumart unavailable). Laprade and Curry are strong checkers, and likely will see more minutes than usual this series.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I will say, I get what Kenora is trying to do loading up defensively speaking with Dumart and Yzerman on their top line, but as I mentioned earlier in my evaluation I think that actually hurts them more than it helps. Moving Blake down to the 2nd line bolsters a line that I had already pegged as superior in the first place and considerably lessens the offensive ability of the top line, putting more pressure on Geoffrion to produce while Yzerman and Dumart are playing a more defensive game. The Bankers already bested Frank Nighbor, Dave Keon, Fedorov, etc with most of those guys going head to head vs the Gretzky line. I still think Pittsburgh will produce. And it certainly allows the Bankers to deploy Smith-Kennedy-Westfall against the now offensively improved 2nd line of Blake-Malkin-Alfredsson more often than not.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Defensive Ability in the Top 6
So far IE's analysis has focused on offensive ability, which is a strength for Pittsburgh, but when looking at defensive ability there is a clear advantage for Kenora...
Ranking defensive ability (gaps intentional)
Dumart
Yzerman/Alfredsson
Foyston/Broadbent
Blake*
Martinec
Gretzky
Malkin/Stewart**
Geoffrion/Giroux
*Finally getting to reply to @Dreakmur about Toe Blake's defensive ability...
The quote in his bio from Dec 1949, is not that strong, it very well could just be referencing his post-NHL play; however, I think the quote from Weekly Sports News in Oct 1948 is worthwhile. The quote reads as follows:
**Stewart's defensive ability has been discussed at length during this draft, so I don't want to get into it now. I have moved him up higher than I would have had him last year, but everyone should be able to make their choice as to him. Regardless of where you have Stewart (so long as it's fairly reasonable), there is a large defensive advantage for Kenora
So far IE's analysis has focused on offensive ability, which is a strength for Pittsburgh, but when looking at defensive ability there is a clear advantage for Kenora...
Ranking defensive ability (gaps intentional)
Dumart
Yzerman/Alfredsson
Foyston/Broadbent
Blake*
Martinec
Gretzky
Malkin/Stewart**
Geoffrion/Giroux
*Finally getting to reply to @Dreakmur about Toe Blake's defensive ability...
The quote in his bio from Dec 1949, is not that strong, it very well could just be referencing his post-NHL play; however, I think the quote from Weekly Sports News in Oct 1948 is worthwhile. The quote reads as follows:
Blake's last NHL season was 1947-48, this was written in Oct 1948 (Blake was a player coach for Buffalo in the AHL in 1948-49). I couldn't find when the AHL season started that year, but the NHL started in mid October, so I think it's fair to assume the AHL started around the same time. That means this quote was either coming right before or right after the season started. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the original article for context, but if you look at how it's written, it seems pretty clear that it's referencing Blake's NHL career. My guess is that it's either a recap of his career once it was known he wasn't coming back to the NHL, or a season preview informing the Buffalo fans on the team's new player/coach. Let's say that this was written in late October and the AHL season had started, you wouldn't call someone a "past-master" if you were only describing his play for the first 2 weeks of the season. Then we have several quotes about his doggedness, digging, tireless work, etc. I don't think people would describe a player in that way over and over, if he's only doing it in the offensive zone. Finally there is also a quote from Elmer Lach in Blake's bio about how the Punch line hated getting scored on more than they liked scoring, and in the same quote he calls Blake the backbone of the line. Individually these may not look like much, but when you combine them all I think it's a fair assessment to rank Blake as a plus defensively in the ATD.
**Stewart's defensive ability has been discussed at length during this draft, so I don't want to get into it now. I have moved him up higher than I would have had him last year, but everyone should be able to make their choice as to him. Regardless of where you have Stewart (so long as it's fairly reasonable), there is a large defensive advantage for Kenora
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Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
We simply think the net effect of this lineup is better. Kenora's top line is not going to "out-offense" Pittsburgh's top line. Their job is to limit Pittsburgh as much as possible while still being a counter-attack threat the other way.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Ok, so, Frank Foyston.... this is probably my fault.... but I can no longer find anything about his defensive play. I still remember reading several sourced and putting them into his bio, but they don't seem to be there, and I can't find them anywhere.... so, I must admit I may have imagined that. I have had him a few times over the years, and sold him as a well-rounded player with little to no pushback until last year when 70s correctly questioned that assertion.
I'm not as high on Dumart as most I guess.
I agree, based on the quotes, Blake is a slight plus defensively. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I just said his "glue guy" abilities were not nearly as good as other top line guys in that role. To me, Blake is a guy who doesn't need help in the intangible areas, but he's also not high enough in them that he can help others.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Rob put together a great bio a few years back with multiple citations of Foyston's all around game and specifically defensive ability.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/114336321/
The Montreal Gazette - 2/17/1928 said:
In Foyston, Aurie and Johnny Sheppard, Detroit has a hook-checking barrier in front of their main defence that is hard to beat. Foyston's speed was a revelation. This veteran was playing pro hockey back around 1911, and he can keep pace still with the best of them. He is a good example of what careful attention to health will do for an athlete.
Dawson Daily News - 4/11/1917 said:
Dawson Daily News - 4/11/1917 said:
Capt. Foyston was the same valuable leader as in the former games. Foyston was fast as a streak and his back checking and all round playing featured the game.
The Morning Leader - 3/19/1917 said:
The Morning Leader - 3/19/1917 said:
Frank Foyston, captain of the Mets, although he scored but one goal, was the individual star of the Seattle team. Foyston's work on offense and defense, his checking, skating and shooting were of a class that fully justified his selection as the most valuable player in Pacific coast hockey.
Toronto Sunday Mail - 3/16/1914 said:
The Toronto World - 12/19/1912 said:
Toronto Sunday Mail - 3/16/1914 said:
Foyston was probably the best man on the ice, and his aggressive playing did more to stop the visitors than anything else. He was always in the fray, and kept his opponents watching him all the time.
The Toronto World - 12/19/1912 said:
Foyston, the Barrie boy, showed some of the stars up this morning and Bruce certainly liked the way he shaped up. He shoots well and checks cleanly and hard
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Tommy Gorman: Not a Good Fit For Pittsburgh's Top 6
Bio: Tommy Gorman - ATD 2013
I think Tommy Gorman is an all-time great coach, but I don't see him working well with this Pittsburgh lineup, particularly the top-6. Gorman's teams were known for their defensive play and heavy forechecking, see the below taken from Sturm's bio...
"In a short series a team has to make the most of all opportunities," he said, "and that was what Maroons did." He was referring to the stout back checking and sturdy defense which consolidated Maroons' lead, established through goals by left wingers Herb Cain and Baldy Northcott."
"They won the first of the best-of-five series Thursday night here, 3-2, in overtime, largely because of defensive perfection"
"He coached Chicago to a Stanley Cup triumph last year then shifted to Montreal to teach a notoriously weak defensive team his system of "fore checking" and back checking that carried them to a world's championship."
"The reign of forechecking and its chief sponsor, Thomas Patrick Gorman"
"Forechecking, a new development in professional hockey, instead of the usual rushes and back-checking won the Stanley Cup for the Chicago Blackhawks according to Manager Tommy Gorman. The radical idea developed in the last six weeks of the season, will be generally used throughout the National Hockey League before the end of another season, he added."
"Thomas Patrick Gorman, the Forum's manager who this year looks on at hockey as merely another spectator, must have had his eyes opened by the Leafs' display of a defensive system he evolved at Chicago in 1933-34 which helped the Black Hawks win their first Stanley Cup, said system being forechecking."
The above is not at all the type of team that suits Wayne Gretzky. One of the quotes even specifically says forechecking instead of the usual rushes. Wayne Gretzky is the greatest player of all time on the rush, and the system his coach employs does not support that at all. There are also several mentions of defensive systems and backchecking. Among Pittsburgh's top 6, Broadbent really fits this type of system, and Foyston to a lesser extent. That's one player on each line. A Gorman team is is hemming the opposition in their own zone, and backchecking hard, and I do not think Pittsburgh's top 6 is suited for that type of game, and instead would be best employed in a system which leans heavily towards offense.
Pittsburgh's 3rd line is a much better fit for a Gorman team, but this is not enough. I see this as a major flaw for Pittsburgh, and limiting to their most important player, Wayne Gretzky.
Bio: Tommy Gorman - ATD 2013
I think Tommy Gorman is an all-time great coach, but I don't see him working well with this Pittsburgh lineup, particularly the top-6. Gorman's teams were known for their defensive play and heavy forechecking, see the below taken from Sturm's bio...
"In a short series a team has to make the most of all opportunities," he said, "and that was what Maroons did." He was referring to the stout back checking and sturdy defense which consolidated Maroons' lead, established through goals by left wingers Herb Cain and Baldy Northcott."
"They won the first of the best-of-five series Thursday night here, 3-2, in overtime, largely because of defensive perfection"
"He coached Chicago to a Stanley Cup triumph last year then shifted to Montreal to teach a notoriously weak defensive team his system of "fore checking" and back checking that carried them to a world's championship."
"The reign of forechecking and its chief sponsor, Thomas Patrick Gorman"
"Forechecking, a new development in professional hockey, instead of the usual rushes and back-checking won the Stanley Cup for the Chicago Blackhawks according to Manager Tommy Gorman. The radical idea developed in the last six weeks of the season, will be generally used throughout the National Hockey League before the end of another season, he added."
"Thomas Patrick Gorman, the Forum's manager who this year looks on at hockey as merely another spectator, must have had his eyes opened by the Leafs' display of a defensive system he evolved at Chicago in 1933-34 which helped the Black Hawks win their first Stanley Cup, said system being forechecking."
The above is not at all the type of team that suits Wayne Gretzky. One of the quotes even specifically says forechecking instead of the usual rushes. Wayne Gretzky is the greatest player of all time on the rush, and the system his coach employs does not support that at all. There are also several mentions of defensive systems and backchecking. Among Pittsburgh's top 6, Broadbent really fits this type of system, and Foyston to a lesser extent. That's one player on each line. A Gorman team is is hemming the opposition in their own zone, and backchecking hard, and I do not think Pittsburgh's top 6 is suited for that type of game, and instead would be best employed in a system which leans heavily towards offense.
Pittsburgh's 3rd line is a much better fit for a Gorman team, but this is not enough. I see this as a major flaw for Pittsburgh, and limiting to their most important player, Wayne Gretzky.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Key Player for Kenora: Red Kelly
As discussed above, Gorman's teams play a forechecking style, and Pittsburgh's top 6 does not have players suited for that style. On top of that, Kenora has the perfect weapon to expose those mis-used players, and that weapon is Red Kelly. As surely everyone is aware, Red Kelly is one of the greatest offensive/rushing defensemen of all time (in that category I have him only behind Orr and Coffey). Pittsburgh will not be successful in trying to pin down Kelly in his own zone, and will be vulnerable to counter-attacks sparked by Kelly's great rushing ability. Kelly will see big minutes this series as not only Kenora's best player, but also their most important.
In addition, please see the below to show how Kenora is perfectly set up to maximize Red Kelly's effectiveness, which was posted previously in the divisional discussion thread...
As discussed above, Gorman's teams play a forechecking style, and Pittsburgh's top 6 does not have players suited for that style. On top of that, Kenora has the perfect weapon to expose those mis-used players, and that weapon is Red Kelly. As surely everyone is aware, Red Kelly is one of the greatest offensive/rushing defensemen of all time (in that category I have him only behind Orr and Coffey). Pittsburgh will not be successful in trying to pin down Kelly in his own zone, and will be vulnerable to counter-attacks sparked by Kelly's great rushing ability. Kelly will see big minutes this series as not only Kenora's best player, but also their most important.
In addition, please see the below to show how Kenora is perfectly set up to maximize Red Kelly's effectiveness, which was posted previously in the divisional discussion thread...
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I have to completely disagree with the red bolded part.
Frank Foyston was a great checker in his day. If you check out Rob's bio here http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/114336321/
I think Foyston is a great glue guy for Gretzky-Martinec in that he doesn't have to worry about scoring much or being the engine offensively on the line. He was very apt at digging in the corners, playing a very Tommy Gorman like game througout his career. Ideally you'd like at least 2 players like that on a line but this is a line that will have the puck a good deal anyway and I think the brilliance of Gretzky and Martinec will have a lot to do with that. And while Martinec wasn't a corner man he was absolutely a very responsible/good defender in his day and I think coupled with Foyston on the other wing, provide capable back checking ability which Gorman wants.
I also think it's important to note that Gorman never had anyone remotely close to Gretzky when he coached. It's true that 99 doesn't necessarily fit a Gorman style, but I think it's crazy to think that any coach, past or present wouldn't jump at the chance to get the most dominant offensive player in hockey history (by a mile) into the fold. Gretzky's mere presence forces teams backwards and he's going to be on the ice for nearly half the game most nights.
Our 2nd line is actually quite apt to play a Gorman style. I found a plethora of information on Nels Stewart regarding his defensive abilities during his Montreal days (which made up the first half and prime of his career) http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/141423057/
Changing the narrative on Stewart's 2 biggest "negatives":
There are generally 2 big knocks against Stewart. One, his skating and speed is often cited as being terrible (more on that later). The second is he was a zero sum player defensively. Somebody that should be viewed in the Bill Cowley or Gordie Drillon tier, which is about as bad as you can get. The following accounts should change that mindset to one degree or another. After going through the vast majority of available game reports here is what I unearthed about Stewart's abilities to play a strong defensive game from C/W.
Nels Stewart surprisingly good defensively throughout his Montreal Maroon days. Almost all of these quotes have not been brought forth previously:
Dec 2 1925: Montreal Gazette: Stewart called a power in defensive play at center ice
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Babe Seibert established himself as the hero of the night along with Nelson Stewart. The playing of this pair was as effective as it was varied. Siebert, the aggressive type, a husky young who works diligently, speedily and fairly cleverly, while Stewart, though not so flashy, is absolutely finished in his play; tricky, deceptive in attack and a power in defensive play at center ice."
Dec 4 1925 Montreal Gazette: Maroon forwards noted for bottling up the speed of the Canadians before it could get going. Sounds like the Maroon forwards fore checked hard and played up aggressively against an elite squad, featuring Morenz.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Canadians offensive strength was in the brilliant individual efforts of Morenz and Billy Boucher the latter going through practically the entire struggle without rest and without penalty. This pair were dazzling in their speed, but they were too closely checked to get their combination play going. Montreal forwards played out for the Canadian rushes and as often as possible, checked Canadian's speed before it could get going."
Dec 17 1925: Montreal Gazette: Stewart again cited for defense
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Nelson Stewart was conspicuous by his breaking-up of Pirate attacks, although he failed to score, he figured on the offense considerably."
Dec 24 1925: Montreal Gazette: Stewart and Reg Noble figured in continually stopping Pirates attacks
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"but the trickiest of play by such deceptive stars as Reg Noble and Nelson Stewart was as naught to this fighting aggregation. They stemmed attacks and carried the play to the other end, only to have to start all over again. And so the battle waged up and down the ice, with the crowd in an uproar as speed was pitted against a machine."
Jan 20 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart noted for great defense, poke checking many attacks away at center ice.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The Maroons set their great defense to work in the final period with a one goal margin in their favor. Nels Stewart poked many an attack to the boards at center ice."
Jan 26 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart steals puck from Simpson and passes out to Broadbent.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Mickey Roach substituted for Burch. Stewart cleverly robbed Simpsons and sending out to Broadbent, who steer the puck into the net, but the referee ruled offside."
Feb 3 1926: Montreal Gazette: Stewart noted as being strong point of Montreal defense, scores a SH goal and poke check was in great form
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Montreal adopted different tactics from those used in previous games this season. The forwards did not chase the puck around the opposing goal with the same persistence, but rather fell back to meet the return rush. The switch gave Nelson Stewart an opportunity to star in a new role. After a rush, instead of chasing the puck carrier on the return journey back, Stewart immediately dropped behind to mid ice and awaited the rush. Attack after attack he broke up with his sweeping stick and a judicious use of his skates and body. His work as a strong point of the Montreal defensive bulwark."
"Munro drew the first penalty for elbowing Joliat. He had hardly climbed into the bench, when Nels Stewart stole the puck. The Maroon center swerved by Morenz, completely tricking the Canadian center and shot past Coutu to find the corner of the net. It was a brilliant play especially coming when the Maroons were short."
"With Siebert and Noble in the penalty box Montreal was sent on the defnsive. Montreal ragged and the crowd roared its disapproval. Nelson Stewart's poke check was greatly in evidence."
Feb 24 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart among multiple Maroon players who thwarted attacks.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The game was another fast, rugged contest. Players were spilled right and left as dash after dash ended against heavy body checking. Siebert, Stewart and Munro were deadly in dropping Ottawa attackers."
"Stewart was the same crafty leader. He held his own in attack and showed early willingness to get back with Broadbent and cover up the right defense, where Kitchen was filling Noble's place."
"The Maroon center was fairly scintillating in attack. He was tireless in his work and was of inestimable help to the Maroon defense."
Feb 27 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart, in a loss, cited for playing great defense despite being bottled up offensively.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart was unable to accomplish on the offense, being constantly covered. He was doing fine work on the defense and was instrumental in stopping frequent rushes."
Mar2 22 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart, shifted to D in 2nd period, cited for strong pokechecking. FIRST ROUND OF PLAYOFFS
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
Holway's defense was not to strong in the opening period, so manager Eddie Gerard shifted Nelson Stewart to Dunc Monro's defensive post and he remained there until the end of the game. Stewart's poke checking stood out.
Mar 31 1926 Montreal Gazette: SCF Game 1, Stewart is a monster offensively, defensively, quoted as playing a fast game, etc
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart fairly towered over the pother players on the ice, and he was alone worth the victory which the local team scored in the game under eastern rules. The Victoria defensive was baffled by the rangy Maroon star. His crafty style of play was something new to them, and they failed to solve his tactics. This player, recently judged the most useful man to his club in the NHL accounted for two goals, the first and last of the game, and both tallies were out of the ordinary. The first, which came after two minutes of play in the initial period was a novel counter, the like of which is seldom witnessed in hockey. Stewart cleared a Victoria rush from close to Benedict's cage. He rushed through the Victoria players at mid ice with long swerving strokes and when he reached the defense, poked the puck through Loughlin. Stewart attempted to round the Victoria captain and defenseman but was spilled face down and full length on the ice....."
"Stewart's second goal came in from the third period less than four minutes from the end of the game. He cleared a rush by Frederickson and started for the Victoria end. He tore down the right wing and Babe Siebert flashed up on the left. At the defense Stewart gave Siebert the puck. The hero of Montreal's league title victory rushed in until almost even with the Victoria net. Stewart was following in fast on the cage and Siebert whipped him a pass. The Maroon star took it in full flight and did not give Holmes a chance to act against the flip from 2 feet out. It was a beautiful play."
"Seibert, Stewart and Broadbent rushed in turn. Then Stewart came down in a tricky rush through center. He evaded the Victoria outer guard, and then slipped the puck past Loughlin. He attempted to recover the disc, but fell. While sliding along the ice, face down, Stewart reached out with his stick, and pushed the puck behind Holmes, who had rushed out from his net to clear. The trick, a novel one, was done in two minutes."
"Frederickson made gallant efforts to get through the Maroon defense. He hit them from every angle and at every pace but Noble and Stewart kept him out. Benedict was having a soft time in the Maroon net."
"Stewart intercepted Fraser's pass to Hart and a dangerous rush by the westerners was wrecked. Stewart and Phillips took play to Holmes net, where they were joined by Dinsmore. All three started to snipe at the Victoria goalie but were thwarted by the brilliant play of Holmes."
"One of the smartest plays of the night brought a third goal Montreal about five minutes before the end of the game. Stewart cleared when Frederickson fell in rushing. The Maroon start tore down right wing. He gave Siebert a pass. The latter rushed in and whipped the puck back to Stewart at the goal mouth. Traveling like lightning Stewart gave Holmes no chance to save. The time was 16:10."
Apr 2 1926 Montreal Gazette: SCF Game 2, Stewart again dominates up and down the ice. But he is playing as a defensemen here.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The big Maroon start is still an enigma to the Cougars. He has tricked them with such a variety of stunts that they hardly know what to expect. In the first game he slipped the puck through the Vic defense and rounded them to score the first goal while prone on the ice. Last night he rushed to the defense, but instead of around, he crashed between them. Still half off balance from the impact, Stewart kept to his purpose and blazed the puck past Holmes for goal number one."
"Stewart, teaming with Noble, was strong defensively and the biggest threat up forward."
Apr 7 1926: Montreal Gazette: Stewart has another monster game clinching the Cup for the Maroons. Again, Stewart is paired with Reg Noble on D. Cited for stealing the puck from Frank Foyston which directly led to a goal.
Nov 19 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart steals puck
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The ice was sticky for the third period. Langlois got the first rush but shot from outside and Benny easily smothered the drive. Stewart took the puck away from McKinnon near the NY goal but shot wide."
Dec 31 1926 Montreal Gazette: Stewart described as tower of strength defensively, while constantly hooking checking attackers
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Dutton almost broke the boards with a drive as the second chapter opened, but the shot was high. Holmes cheated the same player, a minute later. Stewart intercepted a pass, but had no one with him."
"Benedict got Gordon's shot and then spilled in his net to block a drive off the rebound. He was faultless in his work every minute. Stewart was a tower of strength defensively as well as offensively, hook checking the puck away from the puck carriers time and again at center ice."
January 26th 1927 Montreal Gazette:
Feb 11th 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart's hustle and smart defensive play saves likely goal
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"A spectacular stop by Worters deprived Punch Broadbent of a seemingly certain goal while Milk's and Carson languished on the side lines. McCurry retrieved the puck on Worters clearance and flanked by Drury, piled through wildly. Either Corsair might have tallied on the thrust had not Stewart hustled his frame across the glaze to sweep Drury's path and whirl the disc to a corner."
Feb 18th 1927 Montreal Gazette Stewart playing solid defense opposite of Frank Boucher, breaking up multiple rushes.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The teams started off at a rapid pace and after several rushed by both sides Nels Stewart took a pass from Dutton and sent a sizzling shot past Chabto fro the first counter in 3:55. This stimulated the Ranger forwards but they could not penetrate the Munro Dutton defense. Frank Boucher and Stewart broke up several plays around center ice where most of the play was confined"
Feb 25th 1927 Montreal Gazette: Montreal forwards mentioned for aiding the strong Maroon defense
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Noble had a pot shot from ten feet out, but Holmes outguessed him and saved smartly. At every threat the Maroons packed their defense, the forwards rallying to the aid of the defense."
Mar 9 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart praised for his demon like work ethic and toughness
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Montreal were as splendid in defeat. Never have they played better this year. Stewart worked like a demon and he gave and took his bumps with a willingness that was surprising. He was frequently spilled to the ice, his face barked by the falls, but he always came up for more and was ever dangerous as such closely watched."
"When Broadbent went off for heavy work, Gange started the Canadians on a sortie, which Stewart finally cleared. He was again tripped by Gange at the Canadian defense."
Mar 11 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart mentioned for being part of an impregnable defense
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Ottawa were trying to desperately score but Noble and Stewart, aided by Phillips and Siebert and Broadbent were impregnable on defense."
Nov 15 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart played magnificent and was hard working. Again noted speed
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart was playing a magnificent hard working game at center for the Maroons, but was being closely watched and heavily bodied. Stewart and Munro traveled fast in an attack on the Senator goal...."
Nov 23 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart dropping back and blocking a Ching Johnson attack
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Ching Johnson had a try all on his own but Dutton charged him off before he could get his shot in. Ching kept on breaking through, but Nels Stewart dropped back and cleverly blocked him."
Nov 30 1927 Montreal Gazette In a 4-0 loss Stewart was only Maroon player who had any luck stopping Boston attacks. Noted as playing a strong physical came, checking anyone who got near him.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Shore tore and stumbled through for a shot and Gaynor tried on the rebound. Nothing could stop the Bruin attackers except occasionally Stewart's big body."
"Shore got apparently loose in front of the Maroon goal, but Stewart came from the side, and bodied him out of the picture. Bodying tactics were becoming common, and Stewart was doing a job on whoever came near him."
Dec 2 1927 Montreal Gazette: Stewart again dropped back to play D
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart had to drop back to the Maroon defense, along with Dutton."
"Maroons were playing a sound back checking game to smother Ranger rushes as the final period reached the half way mark."
Feb 1 1928 Montreal Gazette: Stewart raced back to bowl over Frank Boucher who was about to let a shot rip from point blank range
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Frank Boucher wriggled his way through, but Nels Stewart raced back and bowled him over as he was about to shoot only a few yards from the cage".
Jan 23 1929 Montreal Gazette: Stewart singled out with 2 others for backing checking and poke checking brilliance. Stewart was on the LW in this game.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart, Smith and Ward while working so dangerously on offensive also saw to it that there was no Couger retaliation. They back checked and poke checked so successfully that they had the Detroiters completely tied up. The Cougars couldn't move."
Feb 20 1929 Montreal Gazette: Stewart and Hooley Smith singled out for great poke checking efforts. Nels is still on the wing here.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Being out in front, the Maroons centered their efforts chiefly upon preserving their lead, which brought out some of the uncanniest poke checking ever seen here by Nels Stewart and Hooley Smith. The Americans drove down in three, four and finally five man attacks but nearly always great stick work by Smith and Stewart would sweep the puck away from them to pull their attempts to score up short. The crowd was almost delirious with excitement as the wonderful defensive tactics of the Montreal players baffled every effort t drive the disc into the net for the tying goal."
Nov 27 1929 Montreal Gazette: Stewart back at C, cited for back checking like a fiend.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Ward and Stewart played bang up games tonight. Big Bels was in on everything and back checked like a fiend."
The Calgary Daily Herald – January 19th said: (pulled from Dreak's bio)
It was a somewhat mild encounter, with the heavy checking of Hooley Smith and Nels Stewart smothering Ottawa attachs in the centre area.
Feb 12 1930 Montreal Gazette: Stewart was a "COLOSSUS" with noted back checking efforts and great passing.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"Big Nelson Stewart stood out like a colossus last night. He backed checked effectively, fed his mates with passes, and when opportunities were presented him, made no mistakes. Both his goals were characteristic of him. The first Maroon goal of the game was propelled with mighty force in Stewart's quick shot fashion to beat Roach cold. John Ross never moved his stick on a low drive to the corner. Nelson's second goal, Maroon's fourth of the game, saw the big fellow pounce in on his own rebound to toss the puck high into the corner of the net. Stewart's goal getting average rose appreciably higher last night. Besides his two tallies, he gave a pair of assists, one to Seibert and the other to Smith."
"Smith, Stewart, and Siebert came on after about five minutes of the third period had gone, and at once achieved the double task of stemming the desperate Hawks attempts to score and of giving their own team an additional margin of safety by adding a second goal."
Jan 21st 1931: Ottawa Citizen: Stewart and Smith cited for playing well and poke checking many Leaf attacks in a loss
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search
"Stewart and Smith played well on their poke checking breaking up many a dangerous Leafs attack"
Feb 10 1932 Montreal Gazette: Stewart knocks player out of game with huge hit at center ice. He's 30 by this point.
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
"The game was no pink tea affair, however. The lusty lads on both sides were handing out old fashioned body checks which, on more than one occasion, saw the victim decorate the ice with his prostrate form. Nels Stewart doubled up Wildor Larochelle with a bone rattling body check in center ice in the first period and they helped Wildor off with his feet dragging behind him, no to appear again well until the middle session was well on its way."
-That is more than MOST players from the 1920's-30's have in terms of 1st hand acounts regarding specific abilities. Now, I'm not going to come out and call Nels Stewart the Frank Nighbor/Boucher of his day but there is a mountain (compared to most players from that time period) of evidence that suggests during his days in Montreal he was quite responsible defensively and even fantastic at it sometimes, as evidenced by the fact the Maroons moved him back to the blue line on more than one occasion. Plus Stewart was a very physical player. He could lay folks out, was a premier fighter and given the vast amount of leadership on hand I think you'd see the absolute peak of him on this specific team. Especially with a coach who was noted for getting the best out of his men.
Claude Giroux has always been an aggressive ball of fire and very good forechecker and responsible defensive player throughout his career in Philly. He's laid out some very big hits over the past 10 years and being as I live between Pittsburgh and Philly can attest to his ability in the corners and going back the other way. He's not elite but he absolutely fits the type of player Gorman would want.
Same thing with Broadbent, although he's even better than Giroux in terms of forechecking and being the defensive cog of his line, in his day. Broadbent and Stewart played together for 2 years, including Stewarts rookie season which also saw him with the Hart trophy and the Maroons won the Cup.
So at the end of the day, while the top line isn't exactly a "Gorman line" it also provides Gorman with the greatest hockey player of all time and a trio of elite postseason and big game perfomers. I think he'd make it work. And as I pointed out, correctly IMO, the 2nd line is actually very well suited to play a Gorman style of game, if he calls for it.
Dreakmur
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
A
Yeah, I agree.
It's been a long time since I've seen a somewhat successful ATD team with such a discord between coach and players. Wayne Gretzky and Nels Stewart the top 2 centers playing a forechecking defensive system?
I mean, Gorman was a smart guy and all; it's not certain he would have insisted on using the same system he is known for. But without that system, he's kind of an unknown as a coach, right?
Yeah, I agree.
It's been a long time since I've seen a somewhat successful ATD team with such a discord between coach and players. Wayne Gretzky and Nels Stewart the top 2 centers playing a forechecking defensive system?
I mean, Gorman was a smart guy and all; it's not certain he would have insisted on using the same system he is known for. But without that system, he's kind of an unknown as a coach, right?
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