Jim Coleman Conference Finals: New Jersey Swamp Devils (1) vs. Vancouver Millionaires (2)

[Sturminator]

BEST OF SEVEN FORMAT

NJ Swamp Devils (1 Seed)

Captain: Sid Abel
Assistant: Joe Sakic
Assistant: Doug Harvey

HEAD COACH
Dick Irvin

ROSTER

Sweeney Schriner - Joe Sakic (A) - Bill Cook
Sid Abel (C) <-> Joe Malone - Helmuts Balderis
Johnny Gottselig - Jonathan Toews - Marian Hossa
Rusty Crawford - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Rene Robert
Bernie Morris, Bruce Stuart

Ching Johnson - Doug Harvey (A)
Babe Siebert - Bill Gadsby
Mark Giordano - Red Dutton
Flash Hollett

Johnny Bower
Tony Esposito

One goal down: Schriner - Sakic - Cook - Harvey - Gadsby. Extra skater: Malone

PP1: Sweeney Schriner - Joe Malone - Bill Cook - Joe Sakic - Doug Harvey
PP2: Sid Abel - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Helmuts Balderis - Rene Robert - Bill Gadsby

PK1: Jonathan Toews - Johnny Gottselig - Ching Johnson - Doug Harvey
PK2: Vyacheslav Starshinov - Marian Hossa - Babe Siebert - Red Dutton
PK spares: Rusty Crawford, Bill Gadsby

VS.

Vancouver Millionaires (2 Seed)

Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant: Valeri Vasiliev
Assistant: Hooley Smith

HEAD COACH
Lester Patrick

Syd Howe --- Phil Esposito --- Hooley Smith (A)
Gordon Roberts --- Connor McDavid --- Nikita Kucherov
Fred Harris --- Patrice Bergeron --- Mickey MacKay
Ilya Kovalchuk --- Igor Larionov --- Eddie Oatman

Eddie Gerard (C) - Bobby Orr
Cyclone Taylor - Valeri Vasiliev (A)
Mike Grant - Cy Wentworth

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilevskiy

Spares: Frank Patrick, D ; Tommy Smith, LW/C ; Mark Stone, RW

PP1: McDavid --- Esposito --- Kucherov --- Taylor --- Orr
PP2: Howe --- MacKay --- Roberts --- Kovalchuk --- Orr/Taylor
PK1: Smith --- Bergeron --- Gerard --- Orr
PK2: MacKay --- Howe --- Vasiliev --- Wentworth

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

One teams screams DYNAMIC!

It may or may not win but it is imposssible to script against.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Congrats @TheDevilMadeMe on another conference finals run

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Should be a good series. A tale of two very differently constructed teams.

On the one hand, you have a balanced NJ team that I think is strong at ever aspect of the game, but not over the top strong at any particular aspect overall. On the other hand is Vancouver, a team with higher highs, but also lower lows.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NJ desired matchups:

Ivan Johnson - Doug Harvey vs Phil Esposito. This is the most important matchup for NJ, as I think our top pairing is almost as perfect a foil for Esposito as you can get. Two of the best defensive defensemen of all-time, both of them big and strong, with Johnson especially matching up well against a big slow forward who did most of his damage in the crease.

Johnny Gottselig - Jonathan Toews - Marian Hossa vs Bobby Orr. This is less of a "hard match" than Johnson-Harvey vs Espo, as Bobby Orr will obviously see more icetime than Toews.

NJ's 3rd line is something of a puck-possession defensive unit. In real life, Toews-Hossa made their mark by matching up against the top lines of opponents in the playoffs and just outscoring them through two-way play and puck possession all over the ice.

Gottselig isn't a classic defensive player, but he was famous for his "puck ragging" at both even strength and on the PK, which IMO is probably the best way to "defend" against Bobby Orr.

Bobby Orr is too good to "check" in the classic sense - the best way to limit his damage to to deny him the puck, and I think NJ"s 3rd line is well constructed to do so to the extent possible.

Backup options against Orr: Really any of NJ's centers are solid defensively, though Malone would be last choice.

Sakic peaked at 2nd in Selke voting, and while he probably didn't deserve to finish that high, his defensive game was regularly praised in the second half of his career, as he was often intentionally used to match up against the top opponents. Starshinov was another "best known for his offense but regularly used as the team's top defensive matchup center." Malone has some of what I would consider "medium strength" praise for his defensive ability in his bio.

NJ's subtle advantage - team defense from the forwards, especially the centers

Having 4 centers who can be relied on to be responsible defensively is a pretty big advantage for any team, and it's something I like on this version of NJ. Malone is the weakest of the bunch defensively, so I would imagine he'd be Irvin's last choice to go against Bobby Orr, but even he had a fair amount of praise for his backchecking.

Vancouver, on the other hand, did something I would never do. Drafted one of the worst defensive centers in the ATD... then backed up up with another of the worst defensive centers in the ATD. That means that one of Esposito or McDavid is going to be forced to play a defensive role on a fairly consistent basis, not really something you want from either of them. Don't get me wrong, I think McDavid absolutely is good enough to play 2C on an ATD team (though I'm still not convinced he's passed Cowley when you consider both regular season AND playoffs). But I don't think he's a good choice to back up Phil Esposito.

You can absolutely win the Stanley Cup with one center who is terrible defensively. It has happened many times in history. But can you do it with 2? Mario had Francis. Gretzky had Messier. Malkin had Crosby. Apps had Kennedy. Etc. Esposito's real life #2C for much of his time in Boston was a scrub in comparison, but he was a decent two-way player: Stanfield dies, remembered for quiet efficiency with Bruins

It's easy to give one of your top centers a mostly offensive role. But it's pretty much impossible to shield 2 of your top centers from defensive responsibility.

Normally, I don't care about 4th liners at even strength that much, but I think that this is a rare case when a 4th line winger hurts the team - namely Kovalchuk, who himself is terrible defensively. I think it only matters, because Vancouver needs their bottom 6 to play as many defensive minutes as possible, especially against a NJ team that has 4 lines that can score at least at an acceptable manner.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'd written a bunch and then accidently hit back

Realistically, our biggest advantages in this series come from our defensive grouping and a more modest advantage from our goaltending.

The construction of Esposito's line means we probably don't need to hide him that much he has a responsible line mate in Syd Howe and then an excellent defensive player in Hooley on his flanks. The S-Line functioned fine and this is just a turbocharged version of that with Syd Howe replaced Seibert and Esposito taking Stewart's place. And Esposito showed flashes of not being a trainwreck when it counted

Our third line is at least on par with yours as a two way line and likely superior if we focused more on pure checking as I don't think you'd disagree about Bergeron being a different class of defensive player when compared with Toews. MacKay likely a better defensive player than Hossa.

Edit: @TheDevilMadeMe figured I'd ping you since I didn't directly quote you so you can see this in a timely manner

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Our third line is at least on par with yours as a two way line and likely superior if we focused more on pure checking as I don't think you'd disagree about Bergeron being a different class of defensive player when compared with Toews. MacKay likely a better defensive player than Hossa.

Bergeron is definitely a better defensive player than Toews, but I think a lot of people underestimate just how strong Toews' even strength offense has been, because Toews doesn't score as much as other stars on the powerplay. I'll try to post something on that over the weekend. But I think NJ's 3rd line brings more offense than yours.

I disagree that MacKay was a better defensive player than Hossa, at least as a winger. Marian Hossa was the best defensive winger of his generation, definitely among stars, and possibly overall. He peaked in an era when centers dominated Selke voting, with Hossa easily getting the best Selke voting record of his time if you look at wingers only. Hossa was big and strong and MacKay was small and soft, so that definitely affects defense from wing, as well. MacKay was definitely faster. Additionally, MacKay's best defensive attribute was his legendary hook-check, something that seems to have been much more effective from center ice. I think MacKay is a great defensive winger, even with all those weaknesses I just pointed out, but I think Hossa was better, at least as a winger.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I disagree that MacKay was a better defensive player than Hossa, at least as a winger. Marian Hossa was the best defensive winger of his generation, definitely among stars, and possibly overall. He peaked in an era when centers dominated Selke voting, with Hossa easily getting the best Selke voting record of his time if you look at wingers only. Hossa was big and strong and MacKay was small and soft, so that definitely affects defense from wing, as well. MacKay was definitely faster. Additionally, MacKay's best defensive attribute was his legendary hook-check, something that seems to have been much more effective from center ice. I think MacKay is a great defensive winger, even with all those weaknesses I just pointed out, but I think Hossa was better, at least as a winger.

Hossa is only 4inches taller and was born 85 years later.

I know adjusted heights/weights is at best a super fudge but MacKay isn't small. MacKay's softness is something I think warrants more exploration. The Cully Wilson incident is most commonly cited on this, but I think to survive hockey back then there's a certain baseline level of toughness that might be missing during other eras.

So I think I again have to disagree pretty strongly with your assessment because it runs counter to how the Millionaires played when Boucher centered MacKay. MacKay seems to have been the forward Patrick tasked to focus defensively and work with Cook and Duncan in their "Phalanx". It's not like the "hook-check" is only useful when used by a center, this narrative has been going for 3 months now when we took Hooley. If you want to avoid being hook checked by MacKay and Harris you're funneled into the middle of the ice where Bergeron is waiting.

All of MacKay's canonical value I need to point out has always been when he was a winger. He gets tons of mileage playing C ahead of Taylor with Nighbor when the Millionaires won it all, but everything else of ATD value largely comes from being a winger in the 20s.

1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

From my bio last year, textual examples of him still being the defensive force even from wing

Unless otherwise noted, he is listed at F (when C is listed) or across from a notable RW or LW while Frank Boucher is listed across from the C
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]08 Mar 1923: 16.
Towards the close of the game the Cougars rallied and Frederickson, who had been dogged and checked to death by MacKay and Boucher finally outstripped his rivals by some fast skating and broke through…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]06 Nov 1924: 4.
Vancouver fans sat back and howled for forwards that could score while Skinner, Frank Boucher and the MacKay followed instructions to the letter, paid more attention to back checking than to attacking saw their goal averages suffer but the games won until the team found itself in the final for the Stanley Cup.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]26 Mar 1921: 30.
….Scarcely a minute later MacKay hooked the rubber away from Nighbor……

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]13 Mar 1922: 12.
Cook, Duncan and MacKay herded the raiders into the trap and blocked them on some dangerous runs. They formed a wonderful trio in front of the Vancouver goal….
None of their (Vancouver) forwards wasted time or energy trying to fight their way through to the Regina cage and run the chance of the Caps breaking away and plunging past a weakened barricade.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]09 Jan 1923: 14.
MacKay listed across from Lalonde just as F
The forwards back checked in amazing style and broke up play after play before it had hardly got underway. Without a doubt the Vancouver machine is the greatest that has ever appeared here…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]17 Feb 1925: 13.
The maroons continued their strong defensive tactics, seemingly content to the let the waves of prairie rushes break on the phalanx of Moran, Duncan and MacKay

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]20 Mar 1923: 16.
At the face-off Cy Dennny seized the puck and got as far as the Vancouver blue line where MacKay’s hook check cut short his progresss…Ottawa came back strongly with brilliant two men and three men attacks which went to pieces on MacKay’s defence.

 

[Sturminator]

The matchups in this series are interesting. On the one hand, Harvey - Johnson is a good matchup agianst the Esposito line, but Johnson's lack of footspeed makes him a bad matchup against the McDavid line, not to mention Orr and Taylor. Which team gets to dictate the matchups may prove decisive. New Jersey has home ice, but Vancouver has the better coach. Thin margins in this one.

 

[VanIslander]

Bobby Orr, Cyclone Taylor, Connor McDavid... HARD TO DEFEND AGAINST. CAN YOU?

And Tretiak, Bergeron and captain Gerard are elitely experienced in stopping pucks and puck carriers.

Dang.

This is the playoff team I dreaded.

 

[VanIslander]

Esposito & Orr together... money.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hossa is only 4inches taller and was born 85 years later.

I know adjusted heights/weights is at best a super fudge but MacKay isn't small. MacKay's softness is something I think warrants more exploration. The Cully Wilson incident is most commonly cited on this, but I think to survive hockey back then there's a certain baseline level of toughness that might be missing during other eras.

So I think I again have to disagree pretty strongly with your assessment because it runs counter to how the Millionaires played when Boucher centered MacKay. MacKay seems to have been the forward Patrick tasked to focus defensively and work with Cook and Duncan in their "Phalanx". It's not like the "hook-check" is only useful when used by a center, this narrative has been going for 3 months now when we took Hooley. If you want to avoid being hook checked by MacKay and Harris you're funneled into the middle of the ice where Bergeron is waiting.

All of MacKay's canonical value I need to point out has always been when he was a winger. He gets tons of mileage playing C ahead of Taylor with Nighbor when the Millionaires won it all, but everything else of ATD value largely comes from being a winger in the 20s.

1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

From my bio last year, textual examples of him still being the defensive force even from wing

Unless otherwise noted, he is listed at F (when C is listed) or across from a notable RW or LW while Frank Boucher is listed across from the C
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]08 Mar 1923: 16.
Towards the close of the game the Cougars rallied and Frederickson, who had been dogged and checked to death by MacKay and Boucher finally outstripped his rivals by some fast skating and broke through…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]06 Nov 1924: 4.
Vancouver fans sat back and howled for forwards that could score while Skinner, Frank Boucher and the MacKay followed instructions to the letter, paid more attention to back checking than to attacking saw their goal averages suffer but the games won until the team found itself in the final for the Stanley Cup.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]26 Mar 1921: 30.
….Scarcely a minute later MacKay hooked the rubber away from Nighbor……

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]13 Mar 1922: 12.
Cook, Duncan and MacKay herded the raiders into the trap and blocked them on some dangerous runs. They formed a wonderful trio in front of the Vancouver goal….
None of their (Vancouver) forwards wasted time or energy trying to fight their way through to the Regina cage and run the chance of the Caps breaking away and plunging past a weakened barricade.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]09 Jan 1923: 14.
MacKay listed across from Lalonde just as F
The forwards back checked in amazing style and broke up play after play before it had hardly got underway. Without a doubt the Vancouver machine is the greatest that has ever appeared here…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]17 Feb 1925: 13.
The maroons continued their strong defensive tactics, seemingly content to the let the waves of prairie rushes break on the phalanx of Moran, Duncan and MacKay

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]20 Mar 1923: 16.
At the face-off Cy Dennny seized the puck and got as far as the Vancouver blue line where MacKay’s hook check cut short his progresss…Ottawa came back strongly with brilliant two men and three men attacks which went to pieces on MacKay’s defence.

Okay, he was a great defensive forwards as a RW, but was he the best defensive RW of his era? I doubt it. (I think best defensive wing among all players of MacKay's era is probably somewhat analogous to the best defensive wing among star level players in Hossa's era, because in the 60 minute game, complete defensive specialists were probably not very useful... I mean, Jack Walker wasn't a great scorer, but he was leaps and bounds better than Jay Pandolfo.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jonathan Toews' even strength offense

I wanted to present overpass's adjusted even strength stats, which is the first place I realized that Toews was a noticeably better even strength scorer than Anze Kopitar, despite Kopitar's overall advantage due to far superior powerplay stats. I realized this when I had Kopitar by the way. Unfortunately the laptop is fried, and I am not going to have time to recover the hard drive before this series is over, so I'll just present a down-and-dirty Even-Strength VsX.

Compared to other centers who have been drafted:

Player	7 year Even Strength VsX
Jeremy Roenick	55
Henrik Zetterberg	55
Jacques Lemaire	55
Jonathan Toews	54
Nicklas Backstrom	54
Pat Lafontaine	53
Anze Kopitar	52
Rod Brind'amour	50
Patrice Bergeron	49

(Idiotic auto-merge by the site software combined 2 posts)

Esposito & Orr together... money.

Yes.

If only the team forward lines built around them was were better defensively, so those guys could do their thing with no worry

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It doesn't look like those ES Vs.X numbers are up to date. If you're using the ones @Hockey Outsider posted, those only go through 2017.

I calculated Kopitar's for his bio this year and got a score of 55.4
(He had a score of 95.5 in 2018, so that's probably the difference)

 

[rmartin65]

If only the team forward lines built around them was were better defensively, so those guys could do their thing with no worry

Smith and Howe are more than adequate to give Esposito the support he needs on the top line- Smith played a very similar role for Nels Stewart in real life, and was far superior to any winger that Espo had in real life. Howe was well-regarded as a physical all-around player- maybe not as physical as Cashman, but definitely a better player.
In fact, you stated that

You guys got so lucky that he fell this far. Just what your top line needed

Post #933



Orr is partnered with Gerard, who is a strong defense-first defender.

In sum, I fail to see how we failed to give Orr and Esposito the support they need.

 

[rmartin65]

As @TheDevilMadeMe brought up VsX first, I won't feel particularly guilty about devoting a quick post to it-

A quick look at some numbers- please point out any errors (hopefully there aren’t any) so I can correct them.

Line 1 VsX Comparison
Vancouver: 83.9 + 130.4 + 78.0= 292.3
New Jersey: 91.3 + 94.0 + 96.0= 281.3

Despite having the best defensive player in this comparison (Smith), Vancouver still comes ahead in terms of VsX thanks to Esposito’s dominance. Looking at these numbers really show how strong an offensive force Esposito was- he really was something like Gretzky pre-Gretzky. Add in the support that Vancouver gets from the blueline (for ~50 minutes, either Taylor or Orr will be on the ice), and Vancouver is truly on another level. In the interest of fairness, however, I would like to note that Cook didn't join the NHL until 30, and he hit the ground running. I am comfortable stating that New Jersey would likely get a boost in several of these categories had he played in the NHL his whole career.

Line 2 VsX Comparison
Vancouver: ? + 104.5 + 85.7 = 190.2 + Roberts
New Jersey: 87.3 + ? + ? = 87.3 + Malone + Balderis

This one is a little harder to analyze due to half the players here being either Soviet or old-time players. I think we can safely (?) assume that McDavid is the best offensive player in the series, certainly the most awarded, but New Jersey is certainly the superior team unit defensively. And, again, Vancouver is going to have much greater support from the defensemen than New Jersey.

I won't get into the bottom 6- New Jersey's line is built more as a two-way line, whereas Vancouver's line is designed to be buried with D-zone starts due to the construction of the team.

Defensively, Vancouver comes out ahead as well. While Harvey is certainly one of the all-time greats (I think most people have him second, I have him third behind Bourque), Orr is unarguably the greatest defensemen of all-time, and in contention for being the greatest player of all-time.

Johnson vs Gerard is also close, but Gerard is generally accepted as a superior player (at least according to the most recent HoH list. I'll echo what @Sturminator said about Johnson's footspeed being an issue- while it may not be an issue against the Esposito line, it leaves him vulnerable against rushes from McDavid, Orr, and Taylor.

The second pairing gets tricky, because I think the community is still working out how to incorporate @ResilientBeast 's recent research concerning Taylor's achievements at D. Personally, I have him ranked higher than Gadsby, but I'd be interested in hearing arguments against that opinion. Vasiliev is a strong stay-at-home defender to cover for Taylor when he goes on his rushes. And while Siebert is definitely not out of place on a second pairing, I think Vasiliev gets the nod as a superior player.

In terms of goaltenders, I don't see how you can argue against the fact that Vancouver has the advantage, even if you give Bower some extra credit for his playoff abilities (which I do). Tretiak was the best goalie the CCCP ever produced (for whatever that's worth), and was voted the top player of the Soviet league an outstanding 5 times.

I'd urge all the voters to read (or re-read) the argument that @DN28 made for Tretiak a couple years ago:

Yes, I´m little surprised to see people taking Tretiak as an early-peak goalie, goalie who first sparked when he was 20 and then had more or less flat career path till his retirement. It´s completely opposite to my understanding of Tretiak: a goalie who constantly kept getting better, more reliable and more successful as he aged.

Let´s have a quick look at phases of his development:

a) 1970-1972
Tretiak recorded impressive 0.950 at WHC 70 (the highest SV% of the tournament) when he was still only 17/18 yo but I wouldn´t think too highly of this yet. I´ve read the game reports and Tretiak´s usage was extremely sheltered, most of his 6 games that he officially played were just 1 or 2 periods against the low-level opponents (Poland, E. Germany, Finland). Kudos to Tretiak that he approached these games conscientiously, as he should have, but there is nothing of a serious value in this yet... Tretiak didn´t get a single vote in either WHC all-star team voting or subsequent SPOTY voting.

Then comes the WHC 71, Tretiak again posted impressive 0.930, 2nd only to Holecek, but again it is still just 5 games played, when Konovalenko (7 games) still acted as soviet starting goalie. Kudos to Tretiak again for how he played and that he again posted higher SV% than his colleague Konovalenko, but it was Konovalenko again who received a couple of votes in AST voting, Tretiak didn´t receive any. Tretiak did at least become soviet all-star goalie (instead of Konovalenko) and finished 5th in SPOTY voting (ahead of Konovalenko, so we can make a solid judgement that Tretiak became the best Soviet goalie already here at this point. But I again don´t see anything of serious value on a macro-level yet.

OG 72, I didn´t read anything of Tretiak´s big contribution to the gold medal, there was no award voting for Olympics but goalie Mike Curran pretty much stole the show with the way he led the underdog USA team to silver medals. Tretiak had solid 0.921 but it was only 4th best SV%, Curran led the tournament with 0.928%.

Moving to the WHC 72, the tournament where Soviets didn´t win for the first time in 10 years or so. Tretiak posted 0.912 which was only 2nd among starters (behind Holecek) and he did receive 10 votes in AST voting of the championship for the first time, but it was still just a 4th best result (Holecek, Molina and Valtonen had more votes). Moreover, I´ve read the game reports from this championship, Tretiak was shaky precisely in both crucial games against Czechoslovakia, allowed some weaker goals from shots from the blueline. I have read plenty from this particular season (aside from game reports also descriptions from Gól magazine and post-seasonal hockey yearbook 1972) and I can say with certainty that Tretiak was still at this point firmly considered below the top tier Czechoslovak, Swedish and Finnish goaltenders (namely Holecek, Dzurilla, Holmqvist and Valtonen). Tretiak finished 6th in ´72 SPOTY voting, which as I´ve written few days ago, was notably weak voting finish for the top Soviet goalie by their standards.

b) 1973-1976
Summit series in the summer of 1972, this is where Tretiak took the next step. It was interesting to read contemporary Czech comments to this series, regarding Tretiak, Czechs had thought pretty much the same as Canadians prior to series - that is, Tretiak, or generally weak Soviet goaltending, will be the main reason why Soviets would lose the series, that was the expection. Otherwise Czechs expected that the Soviet forwards are going to shock the Canadians and generally expected a rather close series. It was a big surprise for all the sport writers and columnists in the Czech press to see Tretiak playing so well.

Anyway, after Summit Series, Tretiak had somewhat average WHC 73 (7 games with 0.921, 6th SV% overall, 4th among starters, no award recognition) but finished 4th in SPOTY in pretty good competition.

What followed then? Tretiak´s incredible 3-year stretch of winning the 'Soviet player of the year' award in 1974, 1975, 1976... Now we´ve already discussed in this thread that these finishes might very well be inflated and why. But let´s not completely discount what Tretiak showed here, he was firmly in the range of best players in Europe during this time (at the very least one of the top 10 players in Europe, but more likely top 5-7, something like that), he showed well his qualities vs. NHL opponents. Look at his international 73-76 stretch again, there´s nothing wrong with being "only" 2nd best goalie in Europe, there were simply 2 elite goalies, one who was at his peak and the other one (=Tretiak) who didn´t his his peak yet:



c) 1977-1979
Let´s skip that, it´s not that important...

d) 1980
Here we have to stop, this was probably Tretiak worst season of this career. Miracle on ice, Soviets losing the gold medals to American students. Tretiak was definitely an accomplice with his uncharacteristically low 0.840 SV%:



It was not only about one tournament as Tretiak ended up 8th in SPOTY voting (his worst finish between 1971-1984) and for the first and last time, different soviet goalie, V. Myshkin was voted ahead of Tretiak on the 7th place...

e) 1981-1984
...Which leads us to Tretiak´s, in my opinion, peak phase of his career. 1980, miracle on ice disaster had to motivate him to change something. Whatever that was, it was working. During this stretch, Tretiak recorded 0.9377 over this stretch of 4 seasons and 5 major international tournaments (WHC 81, CC 81, WHC 82, WHC 83, OG 84), when the average aggregate save percentage over these tournaments was a mere 0.8843. That´s a huge difference that cannot be explained just through the strength of 'Red machine' alone. In fact, the award voting proves the point, i.e. Tretiak´s excellence at this timeframe, that I define as his peak. SPOTY voting: 1st (1981), 1st (1983), 2nd (1984), 3rd (1982).

Sure you can point to pro-goalie soviet bias again here but we have fortunately the voting record of the 'European Golden Stick' award, otherwise known as simply 'Izvestia trophy' for the best players in Europe, voted by European writers / coaches / officials, not just voted by Soviets. Tretiak did here just as well which points to conclusion that his 1980s performances weren´t just a fluke. Tretiak´s Izvestia trophy voting record during this stretch:



3 times in row considered the best PLAYER in Europe, not just the best GOALIE. And that is precisely why I think Tretiak became at this point the best goalie in the world, not just in his own country or continent. Especially considering the dip down in quality of NHL goalies during the same timeframe.

Keep in mind, Tretiak was 28-32 years old between 1981-1984 seasons, which is common age for goalkeepers to have lived their top athletic performance.
_________________

Summary:
I think we can for all intents and purposes structure Tretiak´s career this way:

Elite (= the best or one of the best players in Europe / the best or one of the best goalies in the world) seasons: 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984.

Very good, meaningful in an all-time sense (let´s say top 10-12 best player in Europe / roughly 2nd best goalie in Europe) seasons: 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979.

Seasons which holds no value (or even negative value) in an all-time sense: 1970, 1971, 1972, 1980.
_________________

Now question from me I guess would be, why put Tretiak below Dryden? If I were to be voter, I´d vote Tretiak ahead without hesitation.

Post#231

You yourself even seemed swayed, implying that it would have changed your voting for that round:

This is the best case I've seen for Tretiak on this forum. I wish you had posted it before I voted.

Post #272

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Having a tough time deciding this one. GMs - feel free to make further arguments for your team

 

[ResilientBeast]

Having a tough time deciding this one. GMs - feel free to make further arguments for your team

The crux of Vancouver in this matchup is the dynamic game breaking offensive players spread across our top 6 forwards and top 4 on D.

Our second line in light of current events looks even stronger and is a horrible matchup for TDMMs intended Esposito counters. We have 2 lines playing incredibly different styles being backed up by two incredible puck moving playmaking defensemen.

As VanI alluded to, our team is dynamic and explosive offensively while not being porous defensively and backstopped by an all time high stakes goalie in Tretiak.

Our unconventional lineup, is coached by a pioneering offensive mind who himself pushed the envelope and made some more unorthodox teams function and played a role similar to that of our two best players (Orr & Taylor) during his playing career and will be able to help them get the best out of them.

Our top unit is very Heliocentric around Espo, but we've provided him the best support he could almost ever get in the ATD. Our second line by contrast is just putting together two incredibly talented players and letting them go wild.

 

[Sturminator]

The crux of Vancouver in this matchup is the dynamic game breaking offensive players spread across our top 6 forwards and top 4 on D.

Our second line in light of current events looks even stronger and is a horrible matchup for TDMMs intended Esposito counters. We have 2 lines playing incredibly different styles being backed up by two incredible puck moving playmaking defensemen.

As VanI alluded to, our team is dynamic and explosive offensively while not being porous defensively and backstopped by an all time high stakes goalie in Tretiak.

How, exactly, is your 2nd line a difficult matchup for New Jersey? It's tricky for Ching Johnson due to speed, but that's the only issue I see.

As far as Vancouver's defensive integrity goes, "porous" looks like a pretty apt description. TDMM has already covered the issues at center, but the blueline isn't exactly a stone wall, either. You've got Cyclone Taylor playing defense...a puzzling move given his size (he was 5'8"), almost non-existent praise for his defensive play, and the fact that every single vote that we have from that 1925 MacLean's all-star team had him as a forward. Mike Grant on the 3rd pairing is similar...loads of praise for his puck-carrying ability, but zilch about his puck-stopping ability.

Let's call a spade a spade here: Vancouver is a run-and-gun team.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You've got Cyclone Taylor playing defense...a puzzling move given his size (he was 5'8"), almost non-existent praise for his defensive play, and the fact that every single vote that we have from that 1925 MacLean's all-star team had him as a forward

He's 5'8 and was born in 1884 lol

I love how casually you toss out "non-existent praise", he has non-existant praise for checking as a rover and a center outside of that one PCHA MVP quote you suggested I use more heavily in 2018. As a cover point he absolutely received praise for his all around game.

Courtesy of IE's Pete Green Bio
15 Apr 1961, Page 13 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

-One of two articles years later that show it was Pete Green who switched Cyclone Taylor to defensemen in Ottawa with obviously positive results.

Mr. Bate said some of the directors were discouraged when Taylor worked out as a forward in Ottawa...Then the late Petie Green, then coaching, insisted Taylor try the defense...Taylor turned on his amazing speed and wasn't long convincing the club he was at home.​

Courtesy of IE's Pete Green Bio
13 Dec 1912, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

-In 1909 Green's coaching efforts pay off with Cyclone Taylor. Teaches Taylor the advantages to passing and defense.

In 1909 he had his greatest season at hockey and it was chiefly because Green kept coaching him on the necessity of passing the puck and blocking the man, that the Cyclone was so useful.​

06 Jan 1908

The ice in the first quarter was hard and fast, but after half-time it was soon covered with water, but both teams kept up the fast pace to the finish. For the visitors Phillips and Taylor were the stars....
(Taylor listed at Right-Wing)

13 Jan 1908

But the Wanderers are not the same team now, nor as good as they were a year ago, while Ottawa has probably the greatest bunch that ever wore the club colours. Taylor was the big man of the evening, bigger than even Tom Phillips in the matter of speed. There was some doubt as to how he would figure, but he made them all look like road rollers in comparison. Ottawa's defence was too strong for the Wanderers....

(Taylor listed at Cover Point)

13 Jan 1908 - This is such a great quote

Taylor, who was on the line the night the team was beaten in Quebec (TDMM - I assume this means at forward, RB if this is the same game he was at CP), was in Moore's position at cover point, increasing the efficiency of the defence about 50 percent. He was ruled off 4 times in the game, twice for heavy bodychecking and twice for slashing Wanderer forwards over the arms. His play, while on the rough side, was very effective; he was a hard man to get by and towards the end he stirred up the crowd by lightning rushes from end to end of the rink. He scored Ottawa's sixth and seventh goal on such dashes and was also responsible for the twelth, although Phillips landed the disc in the twine.

With Taylor off, the Wanderer forwards found it easier to work in on the Otttawa defence...

Taylor made it 11 to 1 on an end to end run and a pretty shot. Taylor immediately after the face repeated the run and Phillips scored from the rebound of Taylor's shot.

Taylor brought the crowd to their feet by stealing the disc from Hooper at the Ottawa end and going through the whole Wanderer team for Ottawa's sixth goal. Taylor went in and out through Glass and Ross and taking his time picked out the open corner of the net.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search


05 Feb 1908

A game is played no quotes in the game summary

Taylor is listed as cover-point

Later in the Puckerings section

They are beginning to believe in Ottawa and Montreal that Fred Taylor, the ex-listowel junior is the best hockey player they ever saw in those districts

Those are just some quotes I hastily copied...here are a couple more relevant entries

8 Apr 1912

Taylor, who took his place was mainly responsible for the victory. He came on the ice in time to stop a dangerous western rush and went right through the opposing defense single handily before passing back to Ross for the leading goal. Right after this he went down again and gave Darragh another chance which was accepted. [/B]

Tommy Gorman lists his all-time team (in December of 1928):

Roy Worters, goalie
Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn, defense
Frank McGee, center
Tom Phillips and Scotty Davidson, wings
Cyclone Fred Taylor, utility, greatest player ever.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Someone should warn the Colorado Avalanche, Makar is playing defense at only 5'11

Being born 114 years after Taylor

 

[rmartin65]

As far as Vancouver's defensive integrity goes, "porous" looks like a pretty apt description. TDMM has already covered the issues at center, but the blueline isn't exactly a stone wall, either. You've got Cyclone Taylor playing defense...a puzzling move given his size (he was 5'8"), almost non-existent praise for his defensive play, and the fact that every single vote that we have from that 1925 MacLean's all-star team had him as a forward. Mike Grant on the 3rd pairing is similar...loads of praise for his puck-carrying ability, but zilch about his puck-stopping ability.

Let's call a spade a spade here: Vancouver is a run-and-gun team.

"Porous" seems somewhat harsh. Orr is a legitimately great defensive player. Gerard is a legitimately great defensive player. Vasiliev was predominantly known for his defensive abilities. Taylor is definitely our weakest defender in the top 4, but @ResilientBeast has shown that he did receive accolades for his defensive play while playing defensive positions. I'm not even trying to call him an average defender- he's being utilized as an offensive defender, and I think RB's research has shown that that is a viable role for him... especially on a second pairing, with a guy like Vasiliev as the stay-at-home/defense-first partner.

As for the height comment- I don't think that is a fair attack. He was born in 1884, when the average height for men was much shorter. This website shows the average height for a man in Canada in 1906 (Taylor's first year as a pro) was 171.33 cm- between 5'7" and 5'8". So at 5'8", Taylor was actually average to (if we want to be pedantic) slightly above average sized for a man of his era.

Grant... yeah, he definitely reads as more of an offensive guy. However, there are several quotes about his defense in his bios (2014 and 2012):

Mike Grant was the premier defensive specialist of 1890s ice hockey

He was a tremendous leader of men, played a fine brand of defensive hockey

t is safe to assume that if a Norris Trophy was awarded back in Grant's era he would have earned perhaps four or five as he was the premier dominant defensive player of his time. Similarly, it could be easily argued that Grant would have won at least one Hart Trophy and maybe even a Conn Smythe Trophy had there been such awards.

Grant was brought back to point, where his stops proved invaluable

defender extraordinaire Mike Grant

He made his first start on February 10 against the MAAA, an assignment in which he did anything but disappoint. One newspaper reporter spoke of a defender "impossible to get by."

The Victorias' combination play, or run-and-gun, came together in 1894. Solid forward play combined with Grant's consistent brilliance to provide a two-way punch.

Here is a little statistical stuff to back up Grant's defensive play. As we know, players played practically the whole game during this era, so any change in personnel could be significant offensively or defensively to a team.

Grant's time with the Victorias, out of 5 teams:

1893 (year before he joined): 20 GF (5th), 35 GA (4th)
1894: 36 GF (1st), 20 GA (3rd)
1895: 35 GF (1st), 20 GA (1st)
1896: 41 GF (1st), 24 GA (3rd)
1897: 48 GF (1st), 26 GA (T-2nd)
1898: 53 GF (1st), 33 GA (2nd)
1899: 44 GF (1st), 23 GA (2nd)
1900: 44 GF (2nd), 55 GA (5th) - Grant only played 2 games this season, and clearly the team was hurting for it defensively!
1901: 45 GF (1st), 32 GA (3rd) - Grant played for the Shamrocks this season (30 GF (3rd), 25 GA (2nd)), but as evidenced by the difference in GA numbers, he was still a factor defensively, even though he was slowing down
1902: 36 GF (2nd), 25 GA (3rd) - Victorias numbers, he played 7 games for them this season, but again, he was pretty much done as a player, and the Victorias seemed to feel it in the stats!

Since we have specific information on 1894, I'd like to touch on it in more detail. In total, the Victorias allowed 20 goals that season. Of the 4 Grant played cover-point, only 4 of those 20 goals were allowed. He played one more game that season as a forward, where Victoria allowed 4 goals. Looking at it another way, Grant played 50% of the Victorias' games that season at cover-point, and in those games, only 20% of the total goals were allowed. In the other 50% of the games, of which he played 1 as a forward, the other 80% of the goals were scored. Looking at it in yet another way, of the games Grant played in as cover-point, the team allowed 1 goal per game. In every other game, the team allowed 4 goals per game. Clearly he was a defensive stalwart!

He did not play past 1902. As we can see from these stats, he was clearly a factor for his teams during his prime. He took them from 5th and 4th to 1st and 3rd in GF and GA immediately, and from then on, they never placed lower than 1st for scoring for the next 5 seasons, and never worse than 3rd (only twice) in GA during that same stretch. The numbers certainly support the anecdotes in this case.

To put it in a more broad perspective, of the 6 seasons we can say the team, and likely Grant starred in (1894-1899), the Victorias scored 257 goals. The next best team, Montreal, scored 177 goals. That is 80 goals fewer over that 6 year stretch! On the defensive side of the puck, during that stretch, the Victorias allowed 146 goals, tying Montreal for the fewest goals allowed. Ottawa allowed 161 for 3rd place. That is 15 goals fewer than the next most stingiest team. Grant clearly had a significant impact on both goals for AND against during his tenure on the Victorias!

Despite never scoring in a Stanley Cup match, Grant's rushing abilities are very highly spoken of. I think it's fair to say that he was likely an excellent playmaker of his day, but without assist totals for the years which he played, we may never know. I don't think this guy's rushing abilities would be spoken of so highly if he wasn't making plays for his teammates. Beyond all that though, he was clearly an elite defensive defenseman of his day, and likely a rough customer as well.

With this in mind, RB and I are more than happy with Grant on the 3rd pairing.

 

[Sturminator]

If that's what there is on Taylor as a defenseman...yeah, it's a thin reed. Not good by the standards of an 18-team ATD.

5'8" was on the low side of average for a pro hockey player in Taylor's era. It would be one thing if he was known for physicality (Newsy Lalonde was only 5'9"), but he wasn't. Your 2nd pairing is led by a smallish finesse player who contemporaries considered a forward, and with the above as praise for his defensive game. It is what it is. I admire you guys for having the guts to build a run-and-gun team in the ATD, but let's be real about the roster you've constructed.

----

Curious where that 1928 Gorman quote comes from. We know what his picks were three years earlier:

All-Star, All-Time Canadian Hockey Team | Maclean's | March 15, 1925

archive.macleans.ca

Tommy Gorman, famous sportsman of Ottawa, thinks that Georges Vezina of Ottawa is about the best netminder that ever was; and we know a few hundred keen critics who would be inclined to string along with Tommy on this. His defence would be Gerard and Sprague Cleghorn; his forward line “Scotty” Davidson, Frank “Dutch” Nighbor, the Pembroke-Ottawa tactician, and George Hay of Regina.

 

[rmartin65]

5'8" was on the low side of average for a pro hockey player in Taylor's era. It would be one thing if he was known for physicality (Newsy Lalonde was only 5'9"), but he wasn't. Your 2nd pairing is led by a smallish finesse player who contemporaries considered a forward, and with the above as praise for his defensive game. It is what it is. I admire you guys for having the guts to build a run-and-gun team in the ATD, but let's be real about the roster you've constructed.

Do you have a source for this? I'm genuinely interested in seeing average sizes of pro hockey players throughout history. And even if he is on the "low side of average" for that era- why does that make Taylor on D "puzzling"? There are plenty of average-sized D (relative to era) in the ATD.

I honestly don't have a problem with our team being labeled "run-and-gun"- we have the offensive weapons, we have fantastic playmakers on the blueline, and we have a strong goalie. It isn't the most flattering term one could use to describe our team, but it's not something that I take offense too. My issue was with the term "porous". Taylor is, defensively, the weakest player in our top 4. Luckily, the other 3 players in our top 4 are quite strong defensively. That isn't the makeup of a "porous" defense, in my opinion.

 

[Sturminator]

Do you have a source for this? I'm genuinely interested in seeing average sizes of pro hockey players throughout history. And even if he is on the "low side of average" for that era- why does that make Taylor on D "puzzling"? There are plenty of average-sized D (relative to era) in the ATD.

I honestly don't have a problem with our team being labeled "run-and-gun"- we have the offensive weapons, we have fantastic playmakers on the blueline, and we have a strong goalie. It isn't the most flattering term one could use to describe our team, but it's not something that I take offense too. My issue was with the term "porous". Taylor is, defensively, the weakest player in our top 4. Luckily, the other 3 players in our top 4 are quite strong defensively. That isn't the makeup of a "porous" defense, in my opinion.

Just run through a list of star players from Taylor's era: Phillips, Malone, Ross, MacKay, Lalonde, Foyston, both Claghorns, Nighbor, etc...hard to find a guy shorter than 5'9". As a defenseman, Taylor falls into the Karlsson/Coffey category...barely adequate size, and much more focused on offense than defense. Grant looks similar, although I can't find his size listed anywhere, which means he was probably somewhere in the range of average.

I find Taylor on defense puzzling because I think the record clearly suggests that he was better as a forward. His contemporaries certainly seem to have viewed him that way.

The great Bobby Orr was also a high-variance player...excellent in his own zone, but the chances he took in transition led to a lot of goals against. Vancouver is built a lot like those old Bruins teams, right down to Bergeron playing the Sanderson role on the third unit. With a defense led by Orr, Taylor and Grant and scoringlines that make no effort to check down the middle, I don't think it's a radical conclusion to call this a run-and-gun team. That wasn't meant as an insult; I rather enjoy that style of hockey. Contraction to 18 teams has opened up strategies that are less feasible in a larger league. Neither of the Bobbys (Orr and Hull) has had much success in the ATD to this point, and yet here we are.

New Jersey isn't exactly a conservative team, either, and I think this will be a high-scoring series. Who comes out ahead in an end-to-end battle is anyone's guess.