JIM COLEMAN CONFERENCE FINALS: New Jersey Swamp Devils (1) v. Guelph Platers (2)

[ResilientBeast]

New Jersey Swamp Devils

Coach: Toe Blake

Sid Abel (A) - Jean Beliveau (C) - Bernie Geoffrion
Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Alexander Maltsev
Marty Pavelich - Anze Kopitar - Tony Amonte
Patrick Marleau - Phil Watson - Ed Westfall
Spares: Todd Bertuzzi, Jack Adams

*3rd and 4th lines swap wingers when playing against Bobby Hull

Serge Savard (A) - Pierre Pilote
Art Ross - Fern Flaman
Barry Beck - Si Griffis
spare: Nikolai Sologubov

Georges Vezina
Alec Connell

PP1: Sid Abel - Jean Beliveau - Alexander Maltsev - Bernie Geoffrion - Pierre Pilote
PP2: Patrick Marleau - Russell Bowie - Phil Watson - Art Ross - Si Griffis

PK1: Marty Pavelich* - Ed Westfall - Serge Savard - Fern Flaman
PK2: Anze Kopitar - Phil Watson - Barry Beck - Art Ross
PK spare: Alexander Maltsev - Patrick Marleau, Pierre Pilote

*See Pavelich's profile - he was shifted to C to shadow Jean Beliveau at one point. So he should be able to take faceoffs on penalties - in fact using an even strength winger at C on the PK is exactly something Toe Blake would do​

vs

Guelph Platers
1986 Memorial Cup Champions

Home Rink: Guelph Memorial Gardens (1948)
GM: BraveCanadian
Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Syl Apps Sr.
Alternates: Hap Day / Sylvio Mantha


Alexander Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Paul Thompson - Syl Apps Sr. - Alf Smith
Kevin Stevens - John Tavares - Bobby Rousseau
Gilles Tremblay - Don Luce - Jean Pronovost

"Moose" Johnson - Brad Park
Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
Andrei Markov - Jiri Bubla

Ken Dryden
Pekka Rinne

Reserves
Nathan MacKinnon - Bill Hajt - Jason Pominville

Powerplay:
PP1: Alexander Ovechkin - Syl Apps Sr. - Bryan Hextall Sr. - Andrei Markov - Brad Park
PP2: Paul Thompson - Adam Oates - Kevin Stevens - Bobby Rousseau - Jiri Bubla

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Don Luce - Gilles Tremblay - Moose Johnson - Sylvio Mantha
PK2: Adam Oates - Jean Pronovost - Hap Day - Brad Park​

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Congrats BC on a successful return to the ATD! I had a feeling whoever won our division might end up facing you.

Since Ovechkin is the best winger on Guelph, I'll actually be able to get some use out of Ed Westfall:

Bottom 6 of the Swamp Devils this round:

Patrick Marleau - Anze Kopitar - Ed Westfall
Marty Pavelich - Phil Watson - Tony Amonte

This is the same bottom 6 that would have faced Bobby Hull in the regular season, so they enter the playoffs with some experience playing with each other.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Congrats BC on a successful return to the ATD! I had a feeling whoever won our division might end up facing you.

Since Ovechkin is the best winger on Guelph, I'll actually be able to get some use out of Ed Westfall:

Bottom 6 of the Swamp Devils this round:

Patrick Marleau - Anze Kopitar - Ed Westfall
Marty Pavelich - Phil Watson - Tony Amonte

This is the same bottom 6 that would have faced Bobby Hull in the regular season, so they enter the playoffs with some experience playing with each other.

Thanks man, having fun being back after the break.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Coaching

Blake vs. Arbour. I know I'm very high on Arbour so I don't think that I'm giving up much if anything here. However, people may have Blake higher and NJ has home ice so this has to be seen as an advantage for NJ.


Forwards

1st Line

NJ has stacked their first line and the difference is Beliveau. Using VsX as a short hand to get a sense of where these lines match up offensively:

Guelph: Ovechkin (98.4) - Oates (90) - Hextall (80.9) = 269.3
NJ: Abel (87.3) - Beliveau (105.7) - Geoffrion (89.9) = 282.9

Perhaps closer than people may have thought, and I still love match of Oates' playmaking with Ovechkin and the physicality of our line. Overall you have to give the edge to NJ with Beliveau. However, they need to make hay with their first line because NJ's scoring depth drops off percipitously from here.


2nd Line

Guelph: Thompson - Apps Sr - Alf Smith
NJ: Harris - Bowie - Maltsev

This is where it starts to come apart for NJ as far as scoring depth goes.

It would take a very harsh rating on Alf Smith combined with generous ratings for both Bowie and Maltsev for NJ to run with our second line offensively. The lines are constructed a bit similarly with a relatively low offense glue guy stuck in to make up for perceived shortcomings of the other two. However, in our case I've found some evidence that Thompson and Apps were solid enough two-ways whereas Maltsev was shifted to wing to free him of his defensive responsibilities at center so that he could go all offense on the wing, and I don't think there is much on Bowie in that regard.

"I think that Maltsev's successful performance was in part made possible by moving him from center to the wing, in other words: freeing him from the work load of defensive duty. At the center position he easily got tired in the past so that he was not always ready to follow through with an attack. In the role of a winger all of his energy went into the attack."

In last year's finals, TDMM pointed out that Bowie performed poorly in big games (although during a small sample size). Maltsev was also thought to be intimidated by physical play - of which we have a good amount through our lineup.

All in all I think second lines are a clear advantage for Guelph.


3rd Lines

Stevens - Tavares - Rousseau
Pavelich - Kopitar - Westfall

Our teams diverge here because our third line is another scoring line and by moving Westfall up to this line, NJ has made their line into a checking line.

Offensively it is no contest for Guelph. I love Kopitar but by taking away his only offensive weapon (Amonte), NJ's third line really suffers offensively because Kopitar is alone on an island and very biased towards playmaking.

Defensively NJ is much stronger than our line but that is by design. Stevens is here to supply grit poor defensively (imo) but Tavares is ok and Rousseau is good two ways. In any case, I'll be happy to let NJ match up their 3rd line against our first because they are very little threat offensively so we'll still end up ahead in that matchup (even if somewhat contained), and we have the depth in scoring to make up for it.

Hard to call this one because it depends on what you're looking for.

Offensively it is very obviously Guelph and defensively it is NJ.


4th lines

Gilles Tremblay - Don Luce - Jean Pronovost
Patrick Marleau - Phil Watson - Tony Amonte

For Guelph we concentrated on finding good defensive players who could still pot some points at ES. Having moved Amonte back to this line, NJ's 4th line appears much better offensively by VsX where they are all in the 70s while I don't think Guelph's players are even on the scale.

However, these players won't be playing as high in the lineup as they did in real life. To try and get closer to the truth of how they will do here, I'll post the $ESP / 82 from overpass' spreadsheet.

Gilles Tremblay 40ESP/82G (3 top 10 seasons in ES goals), Don Luce 37ESP/82G, Jean Pronovost 40ESP/82G (4 top 10 seasons in ES goals)
Marleau 40ESP/82G (2 top 10 seasons in ES goals) - Watson N/A (does someone have data?) - Amonte 46 ESP/82 (3 top 10 seasons in ES goals)

From this we can see that these players are much closer in production at ES. Meanwhile I feel comfortable that we're better defensively here by a good margin.

IMO, 4th lines are an advantage for Guelph and our 4th line gives us a good option to use against whatever line Arbour would like to slow down while still being able to contribute some offense of their own.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Defense

1st Pairings

Guelph: Johnson - Park
NJ: Savard - Pilote

Guelph's Brad Park is the best defenseman in this series with Pilote very close behind. Savard > Johnson by a greater margin so I think New Jersey has an edge on first pairings. I think both pairings are well constructed as far as fit goes.


2nd Pairings

Guelph: Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
NJ: Art Ross - Fern Flaman

New Jersey continues their defensive anchor - puck mover (although Ross is not bad defensively either) template here while Hap Day and Sylvio Mantha are each a bit more well rounded.

In the HOH top defenseman project, Sylvio Mantha came in at #56, Hap Day and Fern Flaman were up in the final round of voting, and Art Ross did not make the cut.

Second pairings are an advantage to Guelph.


3rd Pairings

Guelph: Markov - Bubla
NJ: Barry Beck - Si Griffis

Another template defensive pairing from NJ with Beck - Griffis here.

We have Norris records for Beck and Markov:

Beck 6,6,7,7,9
Markov 6,6,13

This shows they peaked roughly similar with Beck getting more seasons of recognition which is interesting when you look at the numbers:

Beck RON 1.02 ROFF 0.84 AEV +/- 76 615GP 10/82
Markov RON 1.13 ROFF 0.95 AEV +/- 123 990GP 10/82

Markov maintained an adjusted even strength plus/minus of +10 per 82 games for 50% more career games than Beck.

Bubla was ranked #44 in the Top European Non-NHL players of all time HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time while Griffis was a big man and rushing star of the early hockey era.

Depending on how you evaluate these players (peak/career/era) I think it is either a wash or an advantage Guelph.


Goaltending:

Guelph: Dryden
NJ: Vezina

The HOH project has Dryden at 7 and Vezina at 10.

Slight Edge Guelph.

 

[ResilientBeast]

It would take a very harsh rating on Alf Smith combined with generous ratings for both Bowie

From the linked bios since they were contemporaries

Bowie
Goals - 1st(1901), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 1st(1908), 1st(1909*), 2nd(1900), 2nd(1902), 2nd(1906), 2nd(1907), 3rd(1899)

Smith
Goals – 1st(1897), 4th(1905), 6th(1896), 7th(1907), 8th(1904), 9th(1895), 9th(1906), 9th(1908)

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3
vs
1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9

 

[BraveCanadian]

From the linked bios since they were contemporaries

Bowie
Goals - 1st(1901), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 1st(1908), 1st(1909*), 2nd(1900), 2nd(1902), 2nd(1906), 2nd(1907), 3rd(1899)

Smith
Goals – 1st(1897), 4th(1905), 6th(1896), 7th(1907), 8th(1904), 9th(1895), 9th(1906), 9th(1908)

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3
vs
1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9

I think we can all safely assume Bowie was the better offensive player and certainly the better goalscorer but didn't Smith have a better showing in assists (which are hard to use obviously because of how sparing they were)?

The thing is that you have to give quite high ratings to both Bowie and Maltsev as well as quite a low rating to Smith to get New Jersey in range per line. I think that is a tough sell.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think we can all safely assume Bowie was the better offensive player and certainly the better goalscorer but didn't Smith have a better showing in assists (which are hard to use obviously because of how sparing they were)?

Well the assist record we have is based on reconstructed assists. Essentially reading the game description and assigning an assist based on if they described as pass before a goal or not.

The linked bio for bio (my own from 2017)

Reconstructed Assists: 1st(1904), 1st(1908), 2nd(1906), 3rd(1903), 7th(1907)
(not recorded in 1901, 1902, or 1905)

From Dreakmur's bio
According to that SIHR study, Alf Smith recorded 23 assists in 32 games. That gives him a 0.72 assist per game rate, which was by far the best of his time. The second best per game average was 0.50, and that was Russell Bowie.

The level of subjectivity and information that would be lost by assists this way, I think Bowie was probably a better playmaker than this record shows. He also played a on team where he was it offensively.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Well the assist record we have is based on reconstructed assists. Essentially reading the game description and assigning an assist based on if they described as pass before a goal or not.

The linked bio for bio (my own from 2016)

Reconstructed Assists: 1st(1904), 1st(1908), 2nd(1906), 3rd(1903), 7th(1907)
(not recorded in 1901, 1902, or 1905)

From Dreakmur's bio
According to that SIHR study, Alf Smith recorded 23 assists in 32 games. That gives him a 0.72 assist per game rate, which was by far the best of his time. The second best per game average was 0.50, and that was Russell Bowie.

The level of subjectivity and information that would be lost by assists this way, I think Bowie was probably a better playmaker than this record shows. He also played a on team where he was it offensively.

There we go. I'm not going to hazard a guess as to what proper ratings for all these players are but I don't see how NJ's 2nd line catches up.

 

[ResilientBeast]

There we go. I'm not going to hazard a guess as to what proper ratings for all these players are but I don't see how NJ's 2nd line catches up.

Well you said if Smith gets a poor score and Bowie a strong one.

The case is right there, but I'm sure @TheDevilMadeMe will articulate it better so I'll leave it to him

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks for getting this started.

Saved me the effort

Now I can just focus on spots I disagree with.

Coaching

Blake vs. Arbour. I know I'm very high on Arbour so I don't think that I'm giving up much if anything here. However, people may have Blake higher and NJ has home ice so this has to be seen as an advantage for NJ.


Forwards

1st Line

NJ has stacked their first line and the difference is Beliveau. Using VsX as a short hand to get a sense of where these lines match up offensively:

Guelph: Ovechkin (98.4) - Oates (90) - Hextall (80.9) = 269.3
NJ: Abel (87.3) - Beliveau (105.7) - Geoffrion (89.9) = 282.9

Perhaps closer than people may have thought, and I still love match of Oates' playmaking with Ovechkin and the physicality of our line. Overall you have to give the edge to NJ with Beliveau. However, they need to make hay with their first line because NJ's scoring depth drops off percipitously from here.

Agree, though I think I showed last round that Geoffrion is definitely a player whose VsX score underrated him, at least somewhat. As he regularly missed some games in each regular season, while maintaining a strong per-game rate, then brought that rate into the playoffs, where he usually played all the games.

2nd Line

Guelph: Thompson - Apps Sr - Alf Smith
NJ: Harris - Bowie - Maltsev

This is where it starts to come apart for NJ as far as scoring depth goes.

It would take a very harsh rating on Alf Smith combined with generous ratings for both Bowie and Maltsev for NJ to run with our second line offensively. The lines are constructed a bit similarly with a relatively low offense glue guy stuck in to make up for perceived shortcomings of the other two. However, in our case I've found some evidence that Thompson and Apps were solid enough two-ways whereas Maltsev was shifted to wing to free him of his defensive responsibilities at center so that he could go all offense on the wing, and I don't think there is much on Bowie in that regard.

The second lines are really hard to compare. Frankly, I see Alf Smith and Smokey Harris as basically equals - both men are here to basically be the spear carrier of their respective lines. Am I underrating Smith here? The competition when he played was just so weak... weaker even than when Bowie played, because at least Bowie played in the later part of the 1900s decade.

Apps is definitely the strongest player on either 2nd line and you did well to show (for what I believe is the first time on hfboards) that he could be responsible defensively, at least sometimes. Apps, by the way, is another guy like Geoffrion, who is underrated by VsX for similar reasons - Apps scored at a very high rate in the regular season (even higher than Geoffrion), but regularly missed some games here and there, but then always brought it in the playoffs.

So it really depends on the Bowie-Maltsev vs Apps-Thompson duos. I honestly have no idea who I prefer there!

In last year's finals, TDMM pointed out that Bowie performed poorly in big games (although during a small sample size). Maltsev was also thought to be intimidated by physical play - of which we have a good amount through our lineup.

I remember saying that Bowie basically had zero big game experience, which isn't quite the same thing as saying he performed poorly. Maltsev was intimidated by the rough stuff against Canada in 1972, then came back and was good enough to be a tournament All-Star in the 1976 Canada Cup, garnering (exaggerated) comparisons to Bobby Clarke, so it's tough to say how we would do in the ATD. I believe Maltsev was generally better against Canada than the USSR's other main rival, Czechoslovakia, for whatever that is worth.

That said, I would definitely agree that NJ's 2nd line is not a group of big name players. The way my top 6 is constructed, my 1st line is ALL big-game players (especially the Montreal duo, but Abel was great too, including a potential Smythe-worthy performance in 1943 from LW). So hopefully, my Bowie-Maltsev duo can just do their thing and score, while your best defenders are focused on my top line.

3rd Lines

Stevens - Tavares - Rousseau
Pavelich - Kopitar - Westfall

Our teams diverge here because our third line is another scoring line and by moving Westfall up to this line, NJ has made their line into a checking line.

Offensively it is no contest for Guelph. I love Kopitar but by taking away his only offensive weapon (Amonte), NJ's third line really suffers offensively because Kopitar is alone on an island and very biased towards playmaking.

Defensively NJ is much stronger than our line but that is by design. Stevens is here to supply grit poor defensively (imo) but Tavares is ok and Rousseau is good two ways. In any case, I'll be happy to let NJ match up their 3rd line against our first because they are very little threat offensively so we'll still end up ahead in that matchup (even if somewhat contained), and we have the depth in scoring to make up for it.

Hard to call this one because it depends on what you're looking for.

Offensively it is very obviously Guelph and defensively it is NJ.

I agree with your overall conclusion (I'm not crazy!), but I think you underrate Patrick Marleau's offense a bit.

While I realize that Patrick Marleau is currently being (IMO rightfully) raked of the coals for the way he broke the "games played" record, his offense isn't that bad.

Just a comparison of these guys by 7-year VsX:

Kevin Stevens (67.0)** - John Tavares (82.7) - Bobby Rousseau (75.5)
Patrick Marleau (72.2) - Anze Kopitar (79.2) - Ed Westfall (NA)*

And 7-year even strength VsX:

Kevin Stevens (48)** - John Tavares (55) - Bobby Rousseau (50)
Patrick Marleau (49) - Anze Kopitar (52) - Ed Westfall (NA)*

*Westfall is below the threshold for VsX to really be useful. Remembering that VsX was only intended to apply to scoring line players. For checkers, adjusted points (to the league average) is probably more useful.

** Stevens' point totals were obviously influenced by Mario Lemieux

By the way, Tony Amonte's 7 year score was 73.0 and his even strength score was 54 (Amonte was something of an even-strength specialist), so while Marleau is a little bit worse offensively, I don't think it's a huge drop.[/quote][/quote]

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Defense

1st Pairings

Guelph: Johnson - Park
NJ: Savard - Pilote

Guelph's Brad Park is the best defenseman in this series with Pilote very close behind. Savard > Johnson by a greater margin so I think New Jersey has an edge on first pairings. I think both pairings are well constructed as far as fit goes.

I disagree that Park is an advantage over Pilote at even strength - I have them in the same tier. I know others disagree, but I don't see it. I know Park finished 2nd to Orr a bunch of times, but the guys he beat were no better than the guys Pilote beat for his Norrises.

Park is a little more useful than Pilote in the ATD though, as he can kill penalties at this level, while it's kind of a bitch having a #1 D who you don't want to be a regular penalty killer. But at even strength, I really don't see much of a difference, with Pilote a little better offensively, and Park a little better at physical defense.

2nd Pairings

Guelph: Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
NJ: Art Ross - Fern Flaman

New Jersey continues their defensive anchor - puck mover (although Ross is not bad defensively either) template here while Hap Day and Sylvio Mantha are each a bit more well rounded.

In the HOH top defenseman project, Sylvio Mantha came in at #56, Hap Day and Fern Flaman were up in the final round of voting, and Art Ross did not make the cut.

Obviously I like your 2nd pairing - I had them as a pairing myself in a previous draft!

I disagree strongly with using "who was available but not voted in on the HOH Top 60" as any sort of measure as to a defenseman's ability. By my reading, Art Ross was just as prolific in the NHA as a player as Lester Patrick was in the PCHA as a player, so I think he had a better shot at making the list than Hap Day did. But who knows for sure?

I am, however, a big fan of Mantha, and I do believe he is slightly better than Fern Flaman. I believe btw, that way the last round of voting went was "Flaman, Howell, and White all have almost identical awards records, so it would be wrong to throw one in at #60 and not the others, so lets throw Harvey Pulford (whose stock was higher back then) a bone and give him #60.

Here are the awards records I have for these guys. Norrises for Flaman, combined All-Star records for Mantha and Day.
For 1926-27 to 1929-30, I used the coaches teams:

Sylvia Mantha: 3, 3, 4, 4, 7, 8
27-28: 7th(T)*
28-29: 3rd
29-30: 4th
30-31: 3rd
31-32: 4th
33-34: 8th

*Mantha tied with several other players with a single vote in 27-28, but given the small number of voters, I felt like it was worth including.

Fern Flaman: 3, 3, 3, 5, 5
54-55: 3rd
55-56: 5th
56-57: 3rd
57-58: 3rd
58-59: 5th


Hap Day: 5, 5, 6, 6, 8
27-28: 6th
30-31: 8th
32-33: 5th
33-34: 6th
34-35: 5th

We don't have any awards record for the NHA when Art Ross played, but given that he

1. Was regularly compared to Lester Patrick and the late Hod Stuart in the press
2. Was considered one of the best players in the NHA
3. Tied with Lester Patrick for the last 3rd Team All-Star spot on the 1925 MacLean's All-Time All-Star list

I think that Ross was probably a better player than Hap Day

3rd Pairings

Guelph: Markov - Bubla
NJ: Barry Beck - Si Griffis

Another template defensive pairing from NJ with Beck - Griffis here.

We have Norris records for Beck and Markov:

Beck 6,6,7,7,9
Markov 6,6,13

This shows they peaked roughly similar with Beck getting more seasons of recognition which is interesting when you look at the numbers:

Beck RON 1.02 ROFF 0.84 AEV +/- 76 615GP 10/82
Markov RON 1.13 ROFF 0.95 AEV +/- 123 990GP 10/82

Markov maintained an adjusted even strength plus/minus of +10 per 82 games for 50% more career games than Beck.

Bubla was ranked #44 in the Top European Non-NHL players of all time HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time while Griffis was a big man and rushing star of the early hockey era.

Depending on how you evaluate these players (peak/career/era) I think it is either a wash or an advantage Guelph.

It's; not a big difference, but I definitely prefer Beck to Markov. Norris voting: Both men are likely a little underrated in that they often missed games. But Markov counters that by being an offense-first guy, a type that tends to be overrated in voting. In terms of R-on, R-off, Barry Beck was a huge minutes defenseman who was often his team's top option in defensive situations. I don't think that was really Markov's role, was it? I know seventieslord has criticized Markov in the past for not seeing as much TOI as you'd expect given his reputaiton. That said, Markov was that man on the PP, and not exactly bad at even strength.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Just realized I goofed not moving Marleau up as well in the comparison but I see you corrected that and we both supplied some ES numbers for him

 

[Dreakmur]

Frankly, I see Alf Smith and Smokey Harris as basically equals - both men are here to basically be the spear carrier of their respective lines. Am I underrating Smith here? The competition when he played was just so weak... weaker even than when Bowie played, because at least Bowie played in the later part of the 1900s decade.

I give Smith an arbitrary score of 70. Harris has a 67. I think it's fair to call them offensive equals.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Haven't had a lot of time but I'll just add that I think both teams feature a very strong first PP unit and very good second units as well. The first PK teams are very good and each of our 2nd teams is solid.

Special teams are a strength for both teams. This one is gonna be a doozy.

 

[tinyzombies]

It's; not a big difference, but I definitely prefer Beck to Markov. Norris voting: Both men are likely a little underrated in that they often missed games. But Markov counters that by being an offense-first guy, a type that tends to be overrated in voting. In terms of R-on, R-off, Barry Beck was a huge minutes defenseman who was often his team's top option in defensive situations. I don't think that was really Markov's role, was it? I know seventieslord has criticized Markov in the past for not seeing as much TOI as you'd expect given his reputaiton. That said, Markov was that man on the PP, and not exactly bad at even strength.

Have to take exception to this as a Habs fan. Sportlogiq showed that he was the best stickcheck guy in the league. He was rarely out of position. Later in his career he had trouble with rush defense. But he was a very very good defender overall and was good at stripping pucks. He was also strong but rarely used it. He was more a Lidstrom-type defender. Excellent hockey sense. Whoever played with him got elevated. He made Emelin an NHL player for many years and before that Komisarek. He never had a good partner until PK came into the league. They had a few great years until he hurt his knee again.

Offensively he was underrated also. His ability to change lanes and find people, his stretch passing- both elite. He had a big shot but rarely used it. And again, he was strong, so he could win puck battles.

Very underrated player in ATD imo.

 

[Dreakmur]

Beck seems like a big-time impact player, while Markov was more or a consistently reliable type. Depending on situation, I could see myself selecting either one, but on a list, I’d have Barry quite a bit higher then Markov.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Have to take exception to this as a Habs fan. Sportlogiq showed that he was the best stickcheck guy in the league. He was rarely out of position. Later in his career he had trouble with rush defense. But he was a very very good defender overall and was good at stripping pucks. He was also strong but rarely used it. He was more a Lidstrom-type defender. Excellent hockey sense. Whoever played with him got elevated. He made Emelin an NHL player for many years and before that Komisarek. He never had a good partner until PK came into the league. They had a few great years until he hurt his knee again.

Offensively he was underrated also. His ability to change lanes and find people, his stretch passing- both elite. He had a big shot but rarely used it. And again, he was strong, so he could win puck battles.

Very underrated player in ATD imo.

I drafted Markov primarily for manning the left point with Park on the PP, but once I looked into him and his numbers some more, I did start thinking him of a "Lidstrom-lite" type of player.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Should have posted this sooner but great series TDMM. This one was a nail biter and as usual you had a strong team.