Post-Game Talk: Jets lose 1-0

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Jet

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It's not Wheeler bashing, it is being realistic and not head over heels about him. Fact is he isn't a good goal scorer, there are a handful of better goal scorers in the jets lineup. Objectively better, their stats will show a much better G/60 ratio. Wheeler is pretty good on PP as a playmaker and should stay on that but he isn't very good 5 on 5 and other players in the Jets roster would provide better results for the team if they plaued in that spot. It's not an argument to elevate a player, it's an argument to elevate the team. You elevate the team by paying people to their strengths. When goals are needed, goal scorers need to be on the ice rather than grinders.

I don't get why people don't understand it's a suggestion for betterment of the whole team because that's exactly what it is.
I wasn't addressing you directly or I would have quoted you. There is plenty of Wheeler bashing on here - mostly predicated by the fact that there is another RW on this team with fans who aren't so much Jets fans as fans of the player.

Blake Wheeler has shown an elite level of performance for many years here, and continues to do so. He is our Captain and there is no way we challenge for a Cup without him.
 

Maukkis

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I wasn't addressing you directly or I would have quoted you. There is plenty of Wheeler bashing on here - mostly predicated by the fact that there is another RW on this team with fans who aren't so much Jets fans as fans of the player.

Blake Wheeler has shown an elite level of performance for many years here, and continues to do so. He is our Captain and there is no way we challenge for a Cup without him.
Wheeler has shown significantly higher capability of driving the play - at both ends of the ice, that is - than Laine has. Both the eye and the numbers seem to back this up.
 
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Psych0dad

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I wasn't addressing you directly or I would have quoted you. There is plenty of Wheeler bashing on here - mostly predicated by the fact that there is another RW on this team with fans who aren't so much Jets fans as fans of the player.

Blake Wheeler has shown an elite level of performance for many years here, and continues to do so. He is our Captain and there is no way we challenge for a Cup without him.

You are right, there is no way we challenge for a cup without him because he is signed for 8.5 until he turns 70. So he has to be in a role in the team and be good at it, or that money is going to keep Jets from extending some of the young talent and shortens their window. He could probably be more helpful in 2nd line with a bit less icetime, so he wouldn't be gassed at the end of games...that's when he can get in trouble.

I know there's an emotional argument gor Wheeler, being the captain and signing up for long term, coach gushing abput him even when not asked. But there comes a point where you have to realistically gauge the player and what they are best suited for. He would work with Little, they are both north-south players and have played well together before. Even if he scores 0 goals with Little, the bump the team gets from Scheifele-Laine is going to be worth more. And Wheeler will still be in PP1 feeding the cannons.

I don't have emotional bias on him (i didn't follow the team when they moved back to Peg), it's easier to see blind spots from a distance.
 

Maukkis

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What numbers?
lainepa98

wheelbl86

(Offensively, positive numbers are good and negative ones are bad. As for defensive impact, it's the opposite.)
 
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Psych0dad

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I really don't know what that Rorschach test is supposed to say.

Penalties taken is much higher for Wheeler, don't know how that's a positive. One of his least impressive traits.

How about goals for/60 or 5 on 5 +/- over the past 2 and 1/3rd of seasons? Stuff that matters, results?
 

tbcwpg

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Literally 3 people in this thread even mentioned Petan, and none of them were overly critical of him not playing or even close to suggesting the loss had anything to do with it.

We get it, your 12th forward, especially in a Maurice coached team, has little significance. Anything else to offer?

I can't comment if I don't think that the difference between Petan and Lemieux is worth the discussions being had about the two? And I think comments like"Put Petan in!!!" have the criticism heavily baked in.

I get the comment had a lot of snark to it, but the frustrating thing about posting on this board is comments like " Anything else to offer?", as though dissenting opinion isn't taken seriously. The 12th forward spot is worth looking at an improvement, but Petan is not the guy. This city is obsessed with backups or "the next guy". Petan has had time to show that he can contribute to more than just the advanced stats battle. Someone commented that we should try him on the 2nd PP - he was there a lot two seasons ago and the play always died on his stick.

As for the PP last night, it wasn't great. I can understand the talk about it being predictible - the thing that makes it so good when it works, is that it's always predictible but can't be stopped anyway. There were two last night that I can remember where the PP couldn't even set up properly.
 

Maukkis

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I really don't know what that Rorschach test is supposed to say.

Penalties taken is much higher for Wheeler, don't know how that's a positive. One of his least impressive traits.


How about goals for/60 or 5 on 5 +/- over the past 2 and 1/3rd of seasons? Stuff that matters, results?
And obviously that is your one takeaway from providing proof for Laine being a worse driver of offense and a higher liability on defense.
 

Psych0dad

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And obviously that is your one takeaway from providing proof for Laine being a worse driver of offense and a higher liability on defense.

I really don't care about driving. I care about results. Driving the line doesn't win games, goals do. In a universe where line driving is the deciding factor of winner in a hockey game, Wheeler could be perceived as a bigger threat for opponents. But in this universe and reality we live in, Laine gets better results with worse minutes and linemates.

I feel people use the "line driving" argument to redefine hockey but hockey is not going to be redefined. It's still measured in actualized results, goals.
 

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Wheeler is a good hockey player , no doubt about it , but i have 2 questions about him right now , what has happened to his shot and why hasn't he driven to the net like he used to ? I'm not bashing Wheeler , he definitely helps us more than hurts us but it's just amazing to me that both of these things seem to be gone from his game . :dunno:
 

Maukkis

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I really don't care about driving. I care about results. Driving the line doesn't win games, goals do. In a universe where line driving is the deciding factor of winner in a hockey game, Wheeler could be perceived as a bigger threat for opponents. But in this universe and reality we live in, Laone gets better results with worse minutes and linemates.

I feel people use the "line driving" argument to redefine hockey but hockey is not going to be redefined.
That's an awfully long way of saying 'that doesn't suit my narrative.'
 

PaulPooley

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Wheeler is a good hockey player , no doubt about it , but i have 2 questions about him right now , what has happened to his shot and why hasn't he driven to the net like he used to ? I'm not bashing Wheeler , he definitely helps us more than hurts us but it's just amazing to me that both of these things seem to be gone from his game . :dunno:
He used to be a bigger scoring threat, though never surpassing the mid-20s in goal scoring. He seems to miss the net 90% of the time. He has, however, become an elite PP passer.
 
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Psych0dad

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That's an awfully long way of saying 'that doesn't suit my narrative.'

No that is actually what you are saying. You are willing to ignore what determines winning games in order to boost up a player with a flawed argument for (i guess) emotional reasons.

Hockey is a simple game, who scores more, wins. Primary function is goal scoring. Assisting and driving are secondary functions that only support the primary objective which is more goals than opponent.

Players who can get better real actualized results, are more valuable than the ones that have "intangibles".

If one can't justify Wheelers position in 1st line with results (and they can't), then that should answer the question automatically. Should be a spot for someone who gets more results.
 
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Howard Chuck

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To no one in particular, how is it a bad thing to try Connor Scheifele Laine when you need a goal?

Schief is the best C, Laine is the best goal scorer and Connor is the best LW.

I hope this isn’t taken as Wheeler bashing or Laine pumping, it’s just what makes sense when you’re down late in a game. :dunno:
 

Jack722

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I really don't care about driving. I care about results. Driving the line doesn't win games, goals do. In a universe where line driving is the deciding factor of winner in a hockey game, Wheeler could be perceived as a bigger threat for opponents. But in this universe and reality we live in, Laine gets better results with worse minutes and linemates.

I feel people use the "line driving" argument to redefine hockey but hockey is not going to be redefined. It's still measured in actualized results, goals.

So would your ideal line include the three players with the highest goal totals? Or do you value things like passing, puck retrieval, zone entry at all?
 

Psych0dad

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So would your ideal line include the three players with the highest goal totals? Or do you value things like passing, puck retrieval, zone entry at all?

Not necessarily but I would of course try to maximize the chances of my best shooters because logic. Scheifele is best at retrieval, him and Laine are also the best passers in the team. Connor is good at zone entries and so are the other 2. It sounds like a great balance and all players can score. It would be more of a rush line, the other lines could do their cycling. Because with this line, you just need to get into the zone and it's an immediate threat. Laine and Chef read eachother perfectly and play short passes and open up chances that way.
 

Psych0dad

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To no one in particular, how is it a bad thing to try Connor Scheifele Laine when you need a goal?

Schief is the best C, Laine is the best goal scorer and Connor is the best LW.

I hope this isn’t taken as Wheeler bashing or Laine pumping, it’s just what makes sense when you’re down late in a game. :dunno:

That's the question.

I wish the media did their job and asked Maurice this question. There shouldn't be a holy cow that you can't question in a professional hockey team.
 
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Jack722

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Not necessarily but I would of course try to maximize the chances of my best shooters because logic. Scheifele is best at retrieval, him and Laine are also the best passers in the team. Connor is good at zone entries and so are the other 2. It sounds like a great balance and all players can score. It would be more of a rush line, the other lines could do their cycling. Because with this line, you just need to get into the zone and it's an immediate threat. Laine and Chef read eachother perfectly and play short passes and open up chances that way.

Right but passing, retrieval and zone entry = line driving. Just FYI. What people mean when they say Wheeler is a good line driver is that he is good at those things.
 
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