Post-Game Talk: Jets 1, Pens 0 - Kunitz Isn't Enough to Save the Day

[Asuna]

Malkin has been better than Crosby this season. The notion that Malkin not playing as well as Crosby is somehow responsible for David Perron being a dead weight, goal sieve of a trainwreck is so illogical I don't even know what to do with it.

I never said that, but hey whatever.

Perron is better this year than he was last season with us, and last season Perron was fine with Crosby.

Yet they won't do it this season. Just try it. The team will not implode by doing so.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It is? It is not.

David Perron, who is horrible, played in the top six while Kunitz, who is bad, was in the bottom six for an entire month.

It is. The only #1LW respite from Kunitz all year was when Dupuis subbed in for him.

Kunitz remains at the top of the lineup because every left wing who might be argued to be better than him retired (unless we're talking about Wilson, who is presently an unknown).

Wilson's an unknown. Perron is outproducing Kunitz despite getting less TOI and regularly getting thrown on his off-side, something Kunitz never has to contend with.

An honest person has to account for why the Hell Porter, Plotnikov or Perron are in the lineup at all before he or she even looks in Kunitz's direction. But for some reason half the board has ostrich syndrome when it comes to anyone but Kunitz.

The argument for Perron is obvious above - he scores more than Kunitz despite less opportunity and regularly being played on his less comfortable wing. Plotnikov doesn't need any explanation either - he's our best possession winger. Porter should be scratched.

This isn't ostrich syndrome. It's painfully clear that our line-up configurations are limited with Kunitz stapled to Sid's LW - and he's the only option we know doesn't work there no matter who's on the other wing. Can't put Horny on Sid's RW because then there'd be two wingers with no ability to handle the puck. Can't put Perron on his rightful LW with Sid because it's occupied.

Maybe instead of bemoaning the lack of guaranteed better LW options and shrugging our shoulders, we can learn from the "Bennett will never work with Crosby because [small, injury-filled sample size]" episode by trying other things before we dismiss them outright.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

It is. The only #1LW respite from Kunitz all year was when Dupuis subbed in for him.



Wilson's an unknown. Perron is outproducing Kunitz despite getting less TOI and regularly getting thrown on his off-side, something Kunitz never has to contend with.



The argument for Perron is obvious above - he scores more than Kunitz despite less opportunity and regularly being played on his less comfortable wing. Plotnikov doesn't need any explanation either - he's our best possession winger. Porter should be scratched.

This isn't ostrich syndrome. It's painfully clear that our line-up configurations are limited with Kunitz stapled to Sid's LW - and he's the only option we know doesn't work there no matter who's on the other wing. Can't put Horny on Sid's RW because then there'd be two wingers with no ability to handle the puck. Can't put Perron on his rightful LW with Sid because it's occupied.

Maybe instead of bemoaning the lack of guaranteed better LW options and shrugging our shoulders, we can learn from the "Bennett will never work with Crosby because [small, injury-filled sample size]" episode by trying other things before we dismiss them outright.

Bottom line, our LW situation sucks. The staff is clearly just trying to put a player on the left side of each of our stars that isn't going to screw things up too badly. And I would argue that Perron has been worse this year than Kunitz; that penalty in the O zone with 5 minutes to go against the Wild was beyond terrible. That could have been a real fiasco.

That being said, at this point, I'd be willing to give Wilson or Plots some shifts with Crosby. At least Wilson can keep up, will truck a guy, and can get to his spots. I haven't gotten a great read on his defensive game, but I haven't seen any glaring mistakes.

Kunitz should play on a 3rd line with the commensurate TOI. If in fact he's going to be expected to contribute in the post season, he can't skate with Crosby the whole regular season, or he'll be cooked by March.

That Perron trade, at this point, is basically an unmitigated disaster. We gave up a pretty good 1st round pick in an awesome draft for about a month of effective hockey. If we could go back and just erase all the mid-season trades from last season, this team would be WAY further ahead right now, let alone in a few years.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bottom line, our LW situation sucks. The staff is clearly just trying to put a player on the left side of each of our stars that isn't going to screw things up too badly. And I would argue that Perron has been worse this year than Kunitz; that penalty in the O zone with 5 minutes to go against the Wild was beyond terrible. That could have been a real fiasco.

That being said, at this point, I'd be willing to give Wilson or Plots some shifts with Crosby. At least Wilson can keep up, will truck a guy, and can get to his spots. I haven't gotten a great read on his defensive game, but I haven't seen any glaring mistakes.

Kunitz should play on a 3rd line with the commensurate TOI. If in fact he's going to be expected to contribute in the post season, he can't skate with Crosby the whole regular season, or he'll be cooked by March.

That Perron trade, at this point, is basically an unmitigated disaster. We gave up a pretty good 1st round pick in an awesome draft for about a month of effective hockey. If we could go back and just erase all the mid-season trades from last season, this team would be WAY further ahead right now, let alone in a few years.

Say what you will about Perron, but he's our 2nd highest scoring winger right now despite playing a good portion of the games on his wrong side.

Like I said, there are no surefire upgrades. Patrick Kane isn't going to walk on to this team. But the least we can do is try other options, something we haven't done to this point (save Dupuis, who has the same limitations Kunitz does).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Kunitz should never be any higher than the 4LW, if he's dressed at all.

When healthy run with; 72-87-81, 57-71-19, 13-16-61, 43-7-23

Swap Kessel and Bennett if you want.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Kunitz should never be any higher than the 4LW, if he's dressed at all.

When healthy run with; 72-87-81, 57-71-19, 13-16-61, 43-7-23

Swap Kessel and Bennett if you want.

And yet you congratulated Shero with giving Kunitz a 4 year contract and called people who hated it idiots. You....you're good

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Say what you will about Perron, but he's our 2nd highest scoring winger right now despite probably a good portion of the games on his wrong side.

Like I said, there are no surefire upgrades. Patrick Kane isn't going to walk on to this team. But the least we can do is try other options, something we haven't done to this point (save Dupuis, who has the same limitations Kunitz does).

He is, but a lot of his points are assists from playing with Geno. And he's our worst forward for +/-, he's got the most PIM's of any winger, and his shooting percentage is the worst of his career. He's playing some bad hockey out there. The numbers would suggest he's had terrible puck luck, but I'm not sure how many tip-ins a guy can miss before it's a trend.

Although +/- is generally unreliable, his -9 vs. Kunitz's +10 that ties him for the team lead can't be discounted entirely, considering he also fails the eye test badly when it comes to defensive play.

 

[mpp9]

It pretty much comes down to being tired of seeing Kunitz with 87.

Perron isnt dangerous at all out there. And hes worse defensively.

 

[billybudd]

Come on Billy. You make a lot of legit points but Kunitz spot has been etched in stone with the exception of Dupuis moving up in his place. We have yet see Sid with neither of Duper or Kunitz for any legitimate period of time. I don't think we have anyone worth a damn to replace him with but there is no reason not to try something else.

In 85 minutes this season without one of those two on his line, Crosby's and his various linemates have 0 goals for and 5 against with a corsi for of 45%. Glass Vitale Adams wasn't nearly this bad. "Just put anybody but Dupuis or Kunitz with Crosby" has been an unmitigated disaster due to the available members in the "left wing who isn't Dupuis or Kunitz" set. I have no understanding of why someone would want to see any more of that than we already have. Even if the grass on your side of the hill is water-starved and dead, it's still greener than when the other side's been napalmed and set on fire.

Our left wings really are so bad that Kunitz is a no-brainer with Crosby or Malkin unless Wilson and Sheary both simultaneously do something unexpected in the next handful of games. Now, that's not impossible, but it's kind of important to first see enough of them to be condident that they can at least do something, so we're not repeating the dumb, (to me at the time, obviously) wrong Hivemind thinking that Tangradi, Gibbons, Boychuk or Megna belonged anywhere other than on a roof in Ohio, fixing some shingles. I mean, you had people saying some of these guys were better than Jokinen. How obviously stupid are they now?

If the idea is to tank, fine. Get rid of Kunitz and give more minutes to the rest of this garbage. But be under no illusions that, bad as he is, Kunitz does less damage than Porter, Perron and Plotnikov. That "tap in" that everyone's so mad about immediately followed a semi-difficult deflection that the rest of these guys don't even get a stick on (Porter can't establish position there, Plotnikov doesn't have the hand-eye and Perron would have been standing in the middle of nowhere not paying attention to the play).

I also find it interesting that nobody's brought up Bonino missing an even easier shot from a better angle half a second later, but hey, I'm the one that's biased towards a player I can't stand for more than two years, apparently. It's not other people cherry-picking their criticism because they like one guy better than another. Nah that can't be it.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

He is, but a lot of his points are assists from playing with Geno. And he's our worst forward for +/-, he's got the most PIM's of any winger, and his shooting percentage is the worst of his career. He's playing some bad hockey out there. The numbers would suggest he's had terrible puck luck, but I'm not sure how many tip-ins a guy can miss before it's a trend.

Although +/- is generally unreliable, his -9 vs. Kunitz's +10 that ties him for the team lead can't be discounted entirely, considering he also fails the eye test badly when it comes to defensive play.

So we're going to the plus/minus card now? Jeez, must be really struggling to find ways to blindly defend Kunitz being used anywhere north of Cullen's wing.

It pretty much comes down to being tired of seeing Kunitz with 87.

Perron isnt dangerous at all out there. And hes worse defensively.

Perron's not good defensively at all, but Kunitz is a corpse on skates. ****, he's a lazy corpse on skates.

 

[MikeLange]

Moving Forward

I just believe this team is either going to figure it out, or blow it up in the off-season.

By blow up I don't mean trade Sid or Geno, I mean, let Perron, Cullen, and Lovejoy walk.

If you can't trade Kunitz for a pick (doesn't matter the round), then buy him out in the off-season, or leave him in the 3rd or 4th Line role.

It's time to let young players play, if that means Sheary, Sprong, and Bennett are the wingers, then so be it. Bonino, Fehr, and Wilson can play on the 4th Line. Hornqvist is still a valuable player, but need to find a better fit for him.

Call up Pouliot, find another decent Defenseman for 2.5-3.00 million, and figure out what the long term plan is with Kessel.

Sure Sid and Geno are to blame, but wingers that are old and, overpaid and under-producing don't help.


Also, I'm not the biggest Letang fan, but if he plays half decent, this team looks different. If they could fit the PP, they would have 4-5 more wins than they do, and right in the hunt for the playoffs.

The Powerplay has been the biggest disappointment, and has caused the majority of the problems, mainly because Sid won't go to high traffic areas.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

In 85 minutes this season without one of those two on his line, Crosby's and his various linemates have 0 goals for and 5 against with a corsi for of 45%. Glass Vitale Adams wasn't nearly this bad. "Just put anybody but Dupuis or Kunitz with Crosby" has been an unmitigated disaster due to the available members in the "left wing who isn't Dupuis or Kunitz" set. I have no understanding of why someone would want to see any more of that than we already have. Even if the grass on your side of the hill is water-starved and dead, it's still greener than when the other side's been napalmed and set on fire.

Small. Sample. Size.

Can we not agree to put very little stock in such things at this point?

Our left wings really are so bad that Kunitz is a no-brainer with Crosby or Malkin unless Wilson and Sheary both simultaneously do something unexpected in the next handful of games. Now, that's not impossible, but it's kind of important to first see enough of them to be condident that they can at least do something, so we're not repeating the dumb, (to me at the time, obviously) wrong Hivemind thinking that Tangradi, Gibbons, Boychuk or Megna belonged anywhere other than on a roof in Ohio, fixing some shingles. I mean, you had people saying some of these guys were better than Jokinen. How obviously stupid are they now?

Perron isn't any of those players. We don't need to speculate here - he's already outproducing Kunitz under less favourable conditions.

What's more, I'm not even suggesting we get married to the idea of the 1st line without Kunitz if it doesn't work.

All I ask is that we try.

If it doesn't work after it's been given a legitimate shot, then by all means, go back to Kunitz.

I also find it interesting that nobody's brought up Bonino missing an even easier shot from a better angle half a second later, but hey, I'm the one that's biased towards a player I can't stand for more than two years, apparently. It's not other people cherry-picking their criticism because they like one guy better than another. Nah that can't be it.

Bonino isn't being handed an undeserved spot next to Crosby. That's the crucial difference.

 

[Fordy]

In 85 minutes this season without one of those two on his line, Crosby's and his various linemates have 0 goals for and 5 against with a corsi for of 45%. Glass Vitale Adams wasn't nearly this bad. "Just put anybody but Dupuis or Kunitz with Crosby" has been an unmitigated disaster due to the available members in the "left wing who isn't Dupuis or Kunitz" set. I have no understanding of why someone would want to see any more of that than we already have. Even if the grass on your side of the hill is water-starved and dead, it's still greener than when the other side's been napalmed and set on fire.

Our left wings really are so bad that Kunitz is a no-brainer with Crosby or Malkin unless Wilson and Sheary both simultaneously do something unexpected in the next handful of games. Now, that's not impossible, but it's kind of important to first see enough of them to be condident that they can at least do something, so we're not repeating the dumb, (to me at the time, obviously) wrong Hivemind thinking that Tangradi, Gibbons, Boychuk or Megna belonged anywhere other than on a roof in Ohio, fixing some shingles. I mean, you had people saying some of these guys were better than Jokinen. How obviously stupid are they now?

If the idea is to tank, fine. Get rid of Kunitz and give more minutes to the rest of this garbage. But be under no illusions that, bad as he is, Kunitz does less damage than Porter, Perron and Plotnikov. That "tap in" that everyone's so mad about immediately followed a semi-difficult deflection that the rest of these guys don't even get a stick on (Porter can't establish position there, Plotnikov doesn't have the hand-eye and Perron would have been standing in the middle of nowhere not paying attention to the play).

I also find it interesting that nobody's brought up Bonino missing an even easier shot from a better angle half a second later, but hey, I'm the one that's biased towards a player I can't stand for more than two years, apparently. It's not other people cherry-picking their criticism because they like one guy better than another. Nah that can't be it.

the last time you cited the minimal time a player had spent with crosby resulting in few goals you were very wrong, weren't you?

 

[Fordy]

i would also have to imagine that most of those 85 minutes are either: obviously just 10-30 second broken shifts spread out over the entire season, or attempts to "load up" a line. obviously we know our offense can't do **** so loading up this season has never come through for us and typically resulted in a goal against

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

the last time you cited the minimal time a player had spent with crosby resulting in few goals you were very wrong, weren't you?

Yeah I was trying to hint at that without raking people over the coals. We've all said some things that look silly in retrospect.

Seeing as how it happened less than a month ago, I didn't figure we had to go into detail, but memories are short. Needless to say, the "goals against over small sample sizes" argument against different linemates doesn't carry any weight, particularly in light of recent evidence to the contrary.

 

[Waffle Fries]

i would also have to imagine that most of those 85 minutes are either: obviously just 10-30 second broken shifts spread out over the entire season, or attempts to "load up" a line. obviously we know our offense can't do **** so loading up this season has never come through for us and typically resulted in a goal against

I'd imagine most of those 85 minutes came from the short lived Fehr-Crosby-Hornqvist line. 85 minutes is less than two full games. It's absolutely laughable to try to use that as proof that a Crosby line is an 'unmitigated disaster' without Kunitz or Dupuis.

 

[Fordy]

I'd imagine most of those 85 minutes came from the short lived Fehr-Crosby-Hornqvist line. 85 minutes is less than two full games. It's absolutely laughable to try to use that as proof that a Crosby line is an 'unmitigated disaster' without Kunitz or Dupuis.

the seconds after a powerplay ends is a significant portion of a sample that small

 

[AR5]

Perron's shot does blow. His release is super slow and he telegraphs it.

In fairness, the same can be said of almost any forward or defenseman on this team. I'm looking at you Letang, Maata, Dumo (tho Dumo has shown potential), Hornqvist, Sheary, etc.

Only ones I've been pleasantly surprised with are Geno, and (inexplicably) Trevor Daley.


OFC, when Kessel does decide to shoot, it's usually a solid snipe/quick snap release. But, I expected that from him.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I'm not sure that trading Kunitz is much of an option, and that has little to do with his contributions or lack there of. Since Bennett can't stay healthy and Plots can't produce, it'd be just one less forward that's at least an NHL player (yes, he is that regardless of the hate). Other than Sprong I don't see anyone that's a long term solution at wing, and Sprong realistically might be a year or two from being a complete NHL player.

I don't like it and I'd love the cap space, but we have crap for wing depth in the entire organization.

 

[Shady Machine]

In fairness, the same can be said of almost any forward or defenseman on this team. I'm looking at you Letang, Maata, Dumo (tho Dumo has shown potential), Hornqvist, Sheary, etc.

Only ones I've been pleasantly surprised with are Geno, and (inexplicably) Trevor Daley.


OFC, when Kessel does decide to shoot, it's usually a solid snipe/quick snap release. But, I expected that from him.

Hornqvist's release is fine, his shot velocity and selection sucks.

Letang can't hit the damn net.

Dumos shot is meh. Maattas is the best besides Daley. Not sure why you are surprised with Daleys shot. His shot and skating are his calling card.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm not sure that trading Kunitz is much of an option, and that has little to do with his contributions or lack there of. Since Bennett can't stay healthy and Plots can't produce, it'd be just one less forward that's at least an NHL player (yes, he is that regardless of the hate). Other than Sprong I don't see anyone that's a long term solution at wing, and Sprong realistically might be a year or two from being a complete NHL player.

I don't like it and I'd love the cap space, but we have crap for wing depth in the entire organization.

Kunitz isn't a long term solution either. This team isn't going anywhere with him and he might have some value still. Trade him now, collect the assets and cap space and move on.

 

[MrWilson*]

In 85 minutes this season without one of those two on his line, Crosby's and his various linemates have 0 goals for and 5 against with a corsi for of 45%. Glass Vitale Adams wasn't nearly this bad. "Just put anybody but Dupuis or Kunitz with Crosby" has been an unmitigated disaster due to the available members in the "left wing who isn't Dupuis or Kunitz" set. I have no understanding of why someone would want to see any more of that than we already have. Even if the grass on your side of the hill is water-starved and dead, it's still greener than when the other side's been napalmed and set on fire.

Our left wings really are so bad that Kunitz is a no-brainer with Crosby or Malkin unless Wilson and Sheary both simultaneously do something unexpected in the next handful of games. Now, that's not impossible, but it's kind of important to first see enough of them to be condident that they can at least do something, so we're not repeating the dumb, (to me at the time, obviously) wrong Hivemind thinking that Tangradi, Gibbons, Boychuk or Megna belonged anywhere other than on a roof in Ohio, fixing some shingles. I mean, you had people saying some of these guys were better than Jokinen. How obviously stupid are they now?

If the idea is to tank, fine. Get rid of Kunitz and give more minutes to the rest of this garbage. But be under no illusions that, bad as he is, Kunitz does less damage than Porter, Perron and Plotnikov. That "tap in" that everyone's so mad about immediately followed a semi-difficult deflection that the rest of these guys don't even get a stick on (Porter can't establish position there, Plotnikov doesn't have the hand-eye and Perron would have been standing in the middle of nowhere not paying attention to the play).

I also find it interesting that nobody's brought up Bonino missing an even easier shot from a better angle half a second later, but hey, I'm the one that's biased towards a player I can't stand for more than two years, apparently. It's not other people cherry-picking their criticism because they like one guy better than another. Nah that can't be it.

Good post...but folks on here hate Kunitz, bud. IMO, the guy plays with heart, is arguably the most physical penguin forward and on a team packed full of 'star' players who have been consistently negatives in the +/- column, the guy is a +10.

So we signed a fat, lazy winger to an 8 yr/$64 Million contract to be the savior that Sid needs to take the team to the Cup, and folks on here are *****ing about Kunitz, who is doing basically what Kuntiz does and has always done?? That's a joke.

He's 36 and has next season left on his contract. IDK that trading him is the answer. He's in the top six because 1) Sid wants him there and 2) he's not nearly the liability that other younger players are or that he is made out to be on here and 3) Somebody in the front office realizes that an undrafted player with two Stanley Cups on two different teams that has played with Crosby for so long might be worth keeping around.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Liability? Ya good reason to keep Kunitz in the top 6 and young players out. Good thing we kept Bennett out of the top 6 for so long with that rationale.

Oh, and our front office thinks it's the right thing to do. Because they've never done anything blatantly idiotic when deferring to veteran status.

 

[Corvidae]

Liability? Ya good reason to keep Kunitz in the top 6 and young players out. Good thing we kept Bennett out of the top 6 for so long with that rationale.

Oh, and our front office thinks it's the right thing to do. Because they've never done anything blatantly idiotic when deferring to veteran status.

Meh, benching Bennett last year may be the only thing that kept him alive. A week in the top six with ~20 minutes a night would probably kill him.

 

[Shrimper]