Jesse Puljujarvi Part 8 | Signs 2-Year Pact with Oilers ($1.175M per); Loaned to Karpat

[Messrules11]

I just replied to you saying the NHL is a league where ice time is not gifted as that's not the case. I don't think there is one single, at least not many teams that wouldn't give any(!) PP time to their top4 pick that has the highest esg/60 of the team after a few months. This is not figure skating where judges give points to someone who impresses the most.

Many of you say results matter and JP didn't produce enough. But when I say he had a few months where he brought results you're justifying his total lack of PP usage with him not impressing in anyway. It's just highly controversial and looks like any justification is desperately seeked.

I've admitted at least some flaws in his game in many messages, maybe you could admit that the lack of PP time was odd. I mean like I said he had the highest even strength goals/60 ratio, he was a 4th pick known earlier as a PP specialist and the team had the worst PP of the league. Still they kept trusting players like Lucic and Camallieri. It's Chiarelli's and McLellan's time so being even a bit negative towards them doesn't mean the current guys are bad.

You better explain expected goals per 60, I could use a good laugh.

 

[Whyme]

You better explain expected goals per 60, I could use a good laugh.

Being able to laught at oneself is a good skill and you may get a chance to try it, as I was talking about even strength goals/60. As far as I know ESG/60 should be a pretty generally used abbreviation.

Especially for someone who doesn't play powerplay that is a pretty useful stat, but in fact I'm almost certain close to Christmas Pulju's goals/60 was the best or the 2nd best of the team even with PP (which he didn't play at the time) included. I can check this if needed.

I'm not making a huge deal of this, just saying it was strange he wasn't tried on the PP at the time. Do you agree with this? Or do you think it was better and justifiable to keep him totally out and keep using Lucic, Camalleri and even Caggiula instead?

 

[HockeyHistorian]

Kärpät signed Devils prospect Janne Kuokkanen for a loan deal earlier today. Kärpät announced one more preseason game to be played next tuesday, so I hope they get to play together like they did very succesfully at the 2016 U18 tournament. Thank god the regular season starts soon - preseason hockey is nice for a while but it gets stale fast. Hopefully Jesse and the Oilers come to a decision soon as well.

Ps. I'm not here to tell anyone how to use their time, but sometimes it's good to just agree to disagree.

 

[Whyme]

Ps. I'm not here to tell anyone how to use their time, but sometimes it's good to just agree to disagree.

Definitely and I guess that counts as some kind of an agreement You probably weren't talking about just us, but I'm sure me and @Messrules11 were doing this in good spirit.

As for Kuokkanen I expect him to play in a different line as the first line has been dominating every shift, but it'd be nice to see him and Pulju together at least on the PP. If Pulju signs a deal with the Oilers it's a strange situation, as he'd be playing in another professional deal and know he'll move to the NHL in the middle of the season. For some it could affect the game (careful with injuries etc.), but I don't think it'll affect Pulju too much. I hope so anyway.

 

[Messrules11]

I hope I don't get a bad reaction with this, but here's a fresh article about the Oilers/Pulju:

Jesse Puljujarvi is the Star the Edmonton Oilers Forgot

It doesn't free Pulju from resposibility, but it mentions some points to show it maybe wasn't as black and white some make it seem. Here's some picked quotes:


- In fact, Puljujarvi’s on-ice performance made his theatrics plenty justified. But, thanks to his complete lack of respectable ice time, his point-totals never reflected that. Still, Puljujarvi was an offensive terror.

---

- The same can be said about the 46 games he played in 2018-19. Despite not even averaging 12 minutes of ice time a game, Puljujarvi faced the seventh-hardest deployment of any Edmonton forwards, by PuckIQ’s numbers. Needless to say, when Puljujarvi did get to play, he was up a creek without a paddle. The Oilers used him more like a fourth-line grinder — more like Kassian — than a great goal-scoring, star prospect.

- The only year that Puljujarvi received both respectable deployment and ice time was 2017-18; coincidentally the year he played most. Finally in a role that he was clearly more comfortable in, Puljujarvi thrived. He set a 2.79 xGF/60 (expected-goals-for per-60), ranking him 41st among all NHL forwards who played in at least 700 minutes of ice time.

- Even more impressive was Puljujarvi’s ixG/60 (isolated-expected-goals per-60). Strictly looking at the contributions made by his shots, Puljujarvi recorded a 0.88 ixG/60, second on the Oilers and 34th among all NHL forwards. That’s a terrific stat and speaks very highly to what Puljujarvi does best: shoot.

- Jesse Puljujarvi was drafted as a dangerous goal-scorer and an elite shooter. His ixG/60 ranking in the league’s 89th percentile proves that, even in the NHL, he did exactly that. He was an elite scoring threat that didn’t get his chance to shine.

- But what adds to this — as if it needed any more weight behind it — is the fact that Puljujarvi only recorded 48.12 minutes of power-play ice time during the 2017-18 season. That’s a negligible amount per many sites and was less than Milan Lucic, Mike Cammalleri, and Drake Caggiula totaled, to name a few. This is a disappointing trio to say the least, yet they all played significantly more on the power-play than Edmonton’s second-best shooter, per ixG. Had Puljujarvi received respectable power-play minutes, like any elite offensive ability should, he would’ve undoubtedly seen a serious increase in his point totals.

- This is all to say that Jesse Puljujarvi is a truly special offensive talent. When used correctly, he has the potential to be a true terror in the offensive end.

- Of course, there are plenty of other teams that could use the young, high-end potential that Puljujarvi showcases. Past rumours have made it clear that Edmonton’s asking price for the winger is very high. With the new GM in place and Puljujarvi’s theatrics in Finland, that price has surely only increased. But it’s a price that teams may want to look into. While Puljujarvi does have some worries defensively and his fate in the NHL has yet to be emphatically proven, he could be worth the risk. He’s established himself as an elite shooter throughout his career and proven his offensive potency in Finland.

- It’s risky trading for Puljujarvi but the payoff could be exponential. And if he’s not dealt, the Finnish winger could do a lot of damage alongside Connor McDavid or Leon Draisaitl. Either way, Puljujarvi’s future in the NHL is bright, even if it’s not guaranteed. He’s an elite offensive talent whose off-ice theatrics clouded many’s perception of him. But in an appropriate NHL role, his numbers argue that he’s a top-end goal scoring talent.

Isolated expected goals per 60. You said it here, what does that mean.... I expect a good chuckle

 

[Whyme]

Isolated expected goals per 60. You said it here, what does that mean.... I expect a good chuckle

I didn't write that stuff, it was just quotes from an article. And anyway the abbreviation for that seems to be ixG/60, while I was talking about a whole different thing with ESG/60. I've actually never heard about the ixG/60 myself so can't say much about that, but I see ESG/60 mentioned pretty frequently and was simply using that to explain why I felt he could've been rewarded with some PP usage. Simply put, Pulju was scoring goals at a steady rate despite him not getting PP time.

That period of a few months wasn't long enough, but him still being kept outside of PP showed he wasn't in an optimal position to succeed at the time. What happened afterwards and how Pulju's game declained later on is another story, but I keep pushing this as I'd expect you to be able to admit at least at the autumn semester the lack of PP usage seemed odd. I'd again like to ask if you felt it was justifiable to keep him outside of the worst PP of the NHL all that time and give all those chances to Lucic, Camalleri and Caggiula? Does that give an example of a fair reward system you talked about? I can tell you the fans over here were actually very angry about that, I wouldn't be too surprised if you were too.

I've asked this enough so if you don't answer to this it's delibarate. I won't repeat this anymore, but will draw some conclusions from how you keep avoiding replying to this question.

 

[frag2]

I didn't write that stuff, it was just quotes from an article. And anyway the abbreviation for that seems to be ixG/60, while I was talking about a whole different thing with ESG/60. I've actually never heard about the ixG/60 myself so can't say much about that, but I see ESG/60 mentioned pretty frequently and was simply using that to explain why I felt he could've been rewarded with some PP usage. Simply put, Pulju was scoring goals at a steady rate despite him not getting PP time.

That period of a few months wasn't long enough, but him still being kept outside of PP showed he wasn't in an optimal position to succeed at the time. What happened afterwards and how Pulju's game declained later on is another story, but I keep pushing this as I'd expect you to be able to admit at least at the autumn semester the lack of PP usage seemed odd. I'd again like to ask if you felt it was justifiable to keep him outside of the worst PP of the NHL all that time and give all those chances to Lucic, Camalleri and Caggiula? Does that give an example of a fair reward system you talked about? I can tell you the fans over here were actually very angry about that, I wouldn't be too surprised if you were too.

I've asked this enough so if you don't answer to this it's delibarate. I won't repeat this anymore, but will draw some conclusions from how you keep avoiding replying to this question.

Not sure why so fixated on the PP part when media reported JP not meshing even during practice. Can't really blame the coach [even though TMac was pretty brutal with Euro's] if nobody trusts the guy.

At the end of the day, if he grows up, puts on big boy pants and plays hard, he'll get to play.

 

[Whyme]

Not sure why so fixated on the PP part when media reported JP not meshing even during practice. Can't really blame the coach [even though TMac was pretty brutal with Euro's] if nobody trusts the guy.

At the end of the day, if he grows up, puts on big boy pants and plays hard, he'll get to play.

I don't get this way of thinking, but of course I know how you feel about these things. What I don't like is people use stats to say how bad Pulju was, but when no-one can deny there was a period of a few months when Pulju produced enough to get more opportunities suddenly stats don't matter and you guys refer to some mysterious "nobody trusting the guy". What if I kept claiming that everybody except for TM trusted Pulju, could I then also say the all in all disappointing stats actually don't matter? We either use the stats or forget them completely, I'm tired of this selective usage of stats and people not realizing it.

The reason why I got "fixated" on the PP can be found from this thread. I was trying to come towards the middle ground and wanted to see if the other poster could do the same and maybe admit I had a point in at least that one thing or at least answer to my questions.

I think it's actually crazy that sometimes people are so locked to their opinions they can't even admit an obvious thing. It's like they feel they lose their face or something. While I talk about the PP and stuff I've at least brought up flaws and problems in his game every once in a while. There's a small group of people who can't say anything positive. I'll drop this now. @Messrules11 may feel free to surprise me positively by answering to my questions.

 

[Aerchon]

I don't get this way of thinking, but of course I know how you feel about these things. What I don't like is people use stats to say how bad Pulju was, but when no-one can deny there was a period of a few months when Pulju produced enough to get more opportunities suddenly stats don't matter and you guys refer to some mysterious "nobody trusting the guy". What if I kept claiming that everybody except for TM trusted Pulju, could I then also say the all in all disappointing stats actually don't matter? We either use the stats or forget them completely, I'm tired of this selective usage of stats and people not realizing it.

The reason why I got "fixated" on the PP can be found from this thread. I was trying to come towards the middle ground and wanted to see if the other poster could do the same and maybe admit I had a point in at least that one thing or at least answer to my questions.

I think it's actually crazy that sometimes people are so locked to their opinions they can't even admit an obvious thing. It's like they feel they lose their face or something. While I talk about the PP and stuff I've at least brought up flaws and problems in his game every once in a while. There's a small group of people who can't say anything positive. I'll drop this now. @Messrules11 may feel free to surprise me positively by answering to my questions.

Just an FYI.

EVERYONE uses stats to support their theories. ALL stats are flawed. Even at the highest level stats are subjective and used to create whatever the narrative the user is trying to sell.

I personally like using my eyes most. Been watching hockey for 35+ years with a high attention to detail and an appreciation for both offense and defense. I have been in yahoo hockey pools since they started 15 years? I rarely finish outside the top 3 in my groups. I used to watch a lot of hockey, not just the Oilers but family keeps me to mostly just the Oilers now a days.

I find when rating teams goal differential is actually the best tool. With players that I watch a lot I like to use plus minus, despite it being a terrible stat. My experience, despite its flaws, plus minus really paints a good picture of a players 5v5 two way game.

But I also use all the other basic stats and basic "advanced" stats like goals/60.

Corsi is pretty much a waste of time but has it place.

People really do invent stats or use certain stats to either make a player look much better than they are or worse. To the point where 6 stats will say a player is bad and that will be their focus while a dozen more say a player is awesome.

For you own sanity, unless you have tons of time, just ignore most stat based arguments.

 

[Whyme]

Just an FYI.

EVERYONE uses stats to support their theories. ALL stats are flawed. Even at the highest level stats are subjective and used to create whatever the narrative the user is trying to sell.

I personally like using my eyes most. Been watching hockey for 35+ years with a high attention to detail and an appreciation for both offense and defense. I have been in yahoo hockey pools since they started 15 years? I rarely finish outside the top 3 in my groups. I used to watch a lot of hockey, not just the Oilers but family keeps me to mostly just the Oilers now a days.

I find when rating teams goal differential is actually the best tool. With players that I watch a lot I like to use plus minus, despite it being a terrible stat. My experience, despite its flaws, plus minus really paints a good picture of a players 5v5 two way game.

But I also use all the other basic stats and basic "advanced" stats like goals/60.

Corsi is pretty much a waste of time but has it place.

People really do invent stats or use certain stats to either make a player look much better than they are or worse. To the point where 6 stats will say a player is bad and that will be their focus while a dozen more say a player is awesome.

For you own sanity, unless you have tons of time, just ignore most stat based arguments.

I've written so much lately I'll now keep this short (though your reply would deserve a longer one, sorry). Just wanted to say I like your approach, sounds like you've actually given this some thought and speak from experience.

 

[harpoon]

I didn't write that stuff, it was just quotes from an article. And anyway the abbreviation for that seems to be ixG/60, while I was talking about a whole different thing with ESG/60.

Then maybe don’t post the bit about ‘isolated expected goals/60’? I mean you say now that you don’t know what it means but it sure appears that you were using it in your argument to prop up Jesse’s performance. It’s bad enough that we have stats that prorate scoring, now we are going to use stats that credit players for goals that never happened? C’mon man. Posters are going to notice that kind of thing and you can expect to be asked for clarification.

Simply put, Pulju was scoring goals at a steady rate despite him not getting PP time.

Simply put, Jesse has 17 goals in 140 NHL games. I guess you could call that a ‘steady rate’. Steadily unimpressive. I’ve cooled down on my disgust with JP and the way he handled his time in Edmonton, and I’m certainly willing to give him another chance to help the club and justify his draft slot, but honestly, reading this thread, some of his most ardent backers are doing him no favours with their homerish evaluation of his NHL career so far.

 

[Mav3rick07]

So ... Why hasn’t Puljujarvi signed with us yet ? I thought all signs pointed to him returning ?

 

[Oilhawks]

So ... Why hasn’t Puljujarvi signed with us yet ? I thought all signs pointed to him returning ?

This.

To the fans across the Atlantic, any smoke over in Finland?

 

[frag2]

This.

To the fans across the Atlantic, any smoke over in Finland?

Only Spector reported that he's coming over.

Everyone else has been coy about the whole thing.

 

[Whyme]

Then maybe don’t post the bit about ‘isolated expected goals/60’? I mean you say now that you don’t know what it means but it sure appears that you were using it in your argument to prop up Jesse’s performance. It’s bad enough that we have stats that prorate scoring, now we are going to use stats that credit players for goals that never happened? C’mon man. Posters are going to notice that kind of thing and you can expect to be asked for clarification.
Simply put, Jesse has 17 goals in 140 NHL games. I guess you could call that a ‘steady rate’. Steadily unimpressive. I’ve cooled down on my disgust with JP and the way he handled his time in Edmonton, and I’m certainly willing to give him another chance to help the club and justify his draft slot, but honestly, reading this thread, some of his most ardent backers are doing him no favours with their homerish evaluation of his NHL career so far.

Come on, it seems like you guys enjoy attacking me, but don't even read the posts you base the attack on. This is getting almost funny.

I simply mentioned there's an article I found quite interesting. I didn't make my own statements and I even addeded there were also some negative things about Pulju in it. I also openly admitted I picked some quotes. You also did which I don't like, ignored my point and turned it to something else to find a way of not answering when I asked, so many times poeple like you obviously got annoyed, the same question several times.

So there happend to be that stat I didn't know about. It sounded interesting to me and I thought some of you hockey people might know more. Oh god what a horrible, terrible mistake I made, I certainly derserve this blame. One thing in a quote I didn't know. Imagine if that could happen with someone else? Fortunately everyone else thinks about their posts and quotes so carefully. Or seriously speaking, could it be this hasn't changed: If it seems someone speaks more positively about Pulju in several posts some people wake up and attack us, just like in the good old times.

I learned something today, not all good, but learning is always good. I wasn't at my best with my posts so sorry for sometimes harsh words, but I'm disappointed at some others. I recognize when I'm disappointed at myself, hopefully it's the same with others. No-ones perfect, I hope everyone could at least agree with this, then realize it applies to themselves, too, and thus relax a bit. I admire people who clearly admit when their wrong. If I know it's especially hard to them and they still do it my hat raises very high for them.

E: Sorry @harpoon ,you seem like a decent poster. I didn't think you always did a very good job with this reply, but you may disagree and even if you agree we all make mistakes like I said.

 

[Oilhawks]

Only Spector reported that he's coming over.

Everyone else has been coy about the whole thing.

I like him and think he’ll be a middle 6 winger now that he’s back on track but I think they should trade him after the playoffs if he won’t sign by then.

He could be used in place of a late 1st / 2nd in a package for an upgrade

 

[Whyme]

I like him and think he’ll be a middle 6 winger now that he’s back on track but I think they should trade him after the playoffs if he won’t sign by then.

He could be used in place of a late 1st / 2nd in a package for an upgrade

It's also possible the Oilers want to see some real games first or that Pulju's Finnish team wants him to sign or at least publish the deal a but later, as the season's start starting and it might not be nicest start to the season to declare the rest of the team that the primus motor of their team will be leading after a while.

Right now the situtation is one where Kärpät will suffer incredibly much from losing Pulju. The organisations total revenue was almost 19 million euros (before corona), but now they're facing a problem with the virus, and at this stage they need to get people to buy season tickets. They wouldn't like to publish Pulju's NHL contract right now. All things matter, even when the NHL is naturally in the leading point.

 

[Oilhawks]

It's also possible the Oilers want to see some real games first or that Pulju's Finnish team wants him to sign or at least publish the deal a but later, as the season's start starting and it might not be nicest start to the season to declare the rest of the team that the primus motor of their team will be leading after a while.

Right now the situtation is one where Kärpät will suffer incredibly much from losing Pulju. The organisations total revenue was almost 19 million euros (before corona), but now they're facing a problem with the virus, and at this stage they need to get people to buy season tickets. They wouldn't like to publish Pulju's NHL contract right now. All things matter, even when the NHL is naturally in the leading point.

Makes sense, I understand he would be a big loss for Karpat as well. I’m concerned with timing this year with things potentially being more hectic with a shorter time between playoffs, draft and free agency.

You’re thinking they might have a deal signed but just want to keep it quiet for now (for the reasons mentioned)?

 

[McShogun99]

I like him and think he’ll be a middle 6 winger now that he’s back on track but I think they should trade him after the playoffs if he won’t sign by then.

He could be used in place of a late 1st / 2nd in a package for an upgrade

If he signs I would rather he stay our property and we can expose him during the expansion draft. Seattle might be willing to take him over Jones due to his age and draft pedigree.

 

[Messrules11]

I didn't write that stuff, it was just quotes from an article. And anyway the abbreviation for that seems to be ixG/60, while I was talking about a whole different thing with ESG/60. I've actually never heard about the ixG/60 myself so can't say much about that, but I see ESG/60 mentioned pretty frequently and was simply using that to explain why I felt he could've been rewarded with some PP usage. Simply put, Pulju was scoring goals at a steady rate despite him not getting PP time.

That period of a few months wasn't long enough, but him still being kept outside of PP showed he wasn't in an optimal position to succeed at the time. What happened afterwards and how Pulju's game declained later on is another story, but I keep pushing this as I'd expect you to be able to admit at least at the autumn semester the lack of PP usage seemed odd. I'd again like to ask if you felt it was justifiable to keep him outside of the worst PP of the NHL all that time and give all those chances to Lucic, Camalleri and Caggiula? Does that give an example of a fair reward system you talked about? I can tell you the fans over here were actually very angry about that, I wouldn't be too surprised if you were too.

I've asked this enough so if you don't answer to this it's delibarate. I won't repeat this anymore, but will draw some conclusions from how you keep avoiding replying to this question.

So why are you posting such junk? If you can’t stand by your post then why bother?

As for Puli on the PP, he had a few cracks at it and did squat, I mean the guy couldn’t hit the net and when he does, well, a career shooting % around 7 is hideous. Why even bother, you talk him up like he’s a sniper, not in this league he isn’t. As for Lucic and Cammalleri, Lucic is a net front presence not a good one but that’s why he was there. Cammalleri is a good passer, or was anyway. Cagguila? Don’t make me laugh, how many minutes did he ever get there?
At any rate JP can sulk all he wants and his fanboys can whine about usage, fact is in 3 years he accomplished nothing. I’d be curious to see what our record is with and without him in the lineup

 

[Tobias Kahun]

So why are you posting such junk? If you can’t stand by your post then why bother?

As for Puli on the PP, he had a few cracks at it and did squat, I mean the guy couldn’t hit the net and when he does, well, a career shooting % around 7 is hideous. Why even bother, you talk him up like he’s a sniper, not in this league he isn’t. As for Lucic and Cammalleri, Lucic is a net front presence not a good one but that’s why he was there. Cammalleri is a good passer, or was anyway. Cagguila? Don’t make me laugh, how many minutes did he ever get there?
At any rate JP can sulk all he wants and his fanboys can whine about usage, fact is in 3 years he accomplished nothing. I’d be curious to see what our record is with and without him in the lineup

Powerplay minutes when they were here.

Cagguila - 1:11 per game.
Puljujarvi - 0:39 per game.

What is he supposed to do with 39 seconds of powerplay.

 

[Aerchon]

Then maybe don’t post the bit about ‘isolated expected goals/60’? I mean you say now that you don’t know what it means but it sure appears that you were using it in your argument to prop up Jesse’s performance. It’s bad enough that we have stats that prorate scoring, now we are going to use stats that credit players for goals that never happened? C’mon man. Posters are going to notice that kind of thing and you can expect to be asked for clarification.
Simply put, Jesse has 17 goals in 140 NHL games. I guess you could call that a ‘steady rate’. Steadily unimpressive. I’ve cooled down on my disgust with JP and the way he handled his time in Edmonton, and I’m certainly willing to give him another chance to help the club and justify his draft slot, but honestly, reading this thread, some of his most ardent backers are doing him no favours with their homerish evaluation of his NHL career so far.

His 19? year old season was absolutely promising. 12 goals and 20 points in a shortened season while bouncing around with little PP time, little ice time, and often struggling linemates.

Basic math/projections suggest with more ice time and more PP time over a full season Puljujarvi "could" have easily been a 20+ goal scorer. Nothing to sneeze at.

The only time I felt Puljujarvi was anything less than a young nhler finding his way was the later half of his final injury plagued year.

 

[nabob]

Powerplay minutes when they were here.

Cagguila - 1:11 per game.
Puljujarvi - 0:39 per game.

What is he supposed to do with 39 seconds of powerplay.

would also be interesting to know how many if any of those seconds were shifts that started in the offensive zone. Those are usually reserved for the top unit, which Jesse was only on for one or two shifts.

 

[PulYou]

You better explain expected goals per 60, I could use a good laugh.

Here some beginners guide for You.

And by the way for the reference at least to me being mean does not mean someone is possessing a real wisdom on anything...

Understanding NHL Analytics: A Beginners Guide Part 2

 

[CycloneSweep]

Powerplay minutes when they were here.

Cagguila - 1:11 per game.
Puljujarvi - 0:39 per game.

What is he supposed to do with 39 seconds of powerplay.

Not supposed to do much with that at all. That said apparently he wasn't put there because in practice he had a ton issue learning the PP and even getting in position.

Can't fault him for not putting up on the pp when not given time there, even though the reason he wasn't there (if true) makes a ton of sense.