Jesse Puljujarvi Part 7: No NHL in '19-20 for Jesse P.

Discussion in 'Edmonton Oilers' started by Bryanbryoil, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. joestevens29 Registered User

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    Which fight was that? He fought two guys that were bigger than him this year and won one and lost one.
     
  2. Whyme Registered User

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    I won't start to argue about your last line as I hate arguments that can't be proven with stats or something on paper. But I still stand behind my words, at the start of their NHL careers Yamamoto and Pulju had different treatments. It's been seen as such a clear fact here I shouldn't even have to talk about that. Anyway, I'm truly happy about Yamamoto's great season.

    https://thehockeywriters.com/oilers-puljujarvi-yamamoto-ahl/

    In my mind, Puljujarvi should have been given more of an opportunity to earn his place but at the end of the day, that isn’t how the coaching staff and/or organization see it and that is all that matters.

    Yamamoto isn’t in quite the same situation, as the former Spokane Chiefs standout has been given an extended look inside the top six and hasn’t looked completely out of place. However, two points in eleven games, most of which has come skating alongside McDavid, isn’t enough production.

    Yamamoto vs Puljujarvi

    Yamamoto has been locked into Edmonton’s top 6 from day one and climbed his way to McDavid’s wing. Puljujarvi started on the third and pushed higher briefly before finding himself a healthy scratch for what will now be four straight games.

    The cold hard fact is that through 10 games, Yamamoto has fewer points than he did after 9 games a season ago. Yamamoto has one 5v5 point, a goal, and one assist on the power play. He’s been playing more than 14 minutes a night in Edmonton’s top 6 and a staple on the 2nd PP unit, but he has just 11 shots on net in 10 games. While paired with Connor McDavid on the top line, the Oilers are scoring less than 1 goal per hour 5v5, and he’s played over an hour 5v5 with McDavid. In fact, he’s played with McDavid more than any other RW this season.

    Jesse Puljujarvi is just 145 days older than Kailer Yamamoto but while one is being given all the opportunity in the world despite his production, the other seems on the verge of washing out of the team.

    They are so close in age and yet have been handled completely differently from each other, which is also playing into how we perceive them.

    What doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny is telling me that these two players are extremely different in their effectiveness and that one has earned top line minutes while the other has earned four straight games in the press box.


    And more in the discussion section...
     
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  3. BigFuzzyDice C/P Suicide Hotline Operator

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    Thankfully Holland isn't a fool, Edmonton is done stepping up to the podium to pick first. We no longer have need of taylor "lotto balls" hall
     
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  4. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    You can't really break down Yamo vs. Pulju to just numbers.

    One guy is pretty much the most competitive player on the team who would run through a wall for his coach and the other goofed around and ignored his coaches.

    It shouldn't be surprising who was given more of an opportunity.
     
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  5. Whyme Registered User

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    It wasn't like that at the time or at least fans didn't feel like it. And from what I can tell neither did at least the media I've read. A lot of people over here know what I'm talking about even if they're scared to admit it as I'm more of a newcomer. Nowadays Yamamoto is part of the hero group and Puljujarvi the opposite, which inevidently affects the way many remember things. That's just how we all are. Anyway, I'll leave this here as this may easily turn into a fight against a windmill (not with you but in general) :)
     
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  6. MessierII Registered User

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    Yamamoto was also sent to junior then to the AHL for the bulk of his draft +1 and 2 years so who was given more nhl opportunity? Yamamoto played 9 games one year and 17 the next. You don’t think Jesse had 26 games in the top 6 over those two seasons? Why didn’t he spend more time in the AHL? The oilers were willing to do that for Yamamoto. Not an Oiler thing maybe it’s a Jesse and his agent thing as was widely reported. Speculation though right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  7. Whyme Registered User

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    Puljujarvi played the second half of his first season in the AHL. I read he was promised a place in the Oilers for the 2nd season but he went to the AHL when asked. It's possible he wasn't too happy about it as he wasn't that bad in the preseason, but some others couldn't be sent down due to their contracts. He also went to the AHL in his 3rd year, too bad Hitchcock wanted him back so soon.

    Anyway, I wasn't talking about that. Right from the start Yamamoto was put to the top6 (mainly with McD) and given PP minutes. At that time he couldn't produce, but was kept there and the fans got frustrated. All in all it seems the Oilers have done a great job with him. However, without taking away anything from KY I actually believe Jesse's points with Drai and Nuge (+some PP time) could surprise many over here. He's not a terrible player some are making him to look like.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  8. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    It's not like Pulju was hitting it out of the park or given raw deal to start though.

    He played almost 100% of his 5v5 icetime with Drai or RNH to start his rookie year before he was given a chance with McDavid despite having the worst 5v5 points/60 of any regular forward on the team at the time.
     
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  9. Draiskull Registered User

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    RNH and who else? Drai and who else? Chiasson? Lucic? Neal? Khaira?
    It wasn't just Pulju who struggled away from McDavid but pretty much everyone else including Drai and Nuge.
    RNH and Drai away from McDavid were average at best the last couple seasons. Drai couldn't carry a line until Yamamoto started clicking.
     
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  10. Whyme Registered User

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    I don't really have big complaints about how the Oilers handled Pulju that season. But there was a difference between being thrown between the 2nd-4th lines+practically no PP time and being placed with McDavid without PP usage. I also don't know if I should say this, but at the time you couldn't call Nuge or Drai actual top centers like McDavid.

    I understand some feel protective toward the team, but the organization wasn't the same as it's now and they made their mistakes, too. Puljujarvi felt he was in a vicious circle and after all the ***t he got from media and fans he maybe felt he has to change scenary. He's never said anything bad about the team, other players, city or the fans, so I don't know if fans need to be that bitter towards him. He was 20 at that time and maybe even more immature than a typical boy at that age, it wasn't easy for him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  11. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    P/60 away from McDavid:
    Leon - 1.79
    RNH - 1.45
    Pulju - 0.87

    Now consider how much better Leon and RNH's numbers without both McDavid and Puljuarvi are to end up with that difference.

    Still think Leon and RNH were the issue?
     
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  12. Draiskull Registered User

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    Team depth was the issue where atleast 2 bottom 6ers were forced to play in top 6 all season and the players playing line 2,3,4 failed to provide 2ndary scoring.

    not sure what 1.45 p\60 means but I am assuming it is ES production and does not factor in in PP time, quality of opponents, quality of linemates and game involvement ie having to play 16 shifts per game vs 26.

    RNH and Drai visually looked much better and seemed to produce a lot more when on McLine.

    RNH was better than Drai carrying a line but neither were good enough to provide regular secondary scoring until Yama.
     
  13. Al from New Jersey Registered User

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    So you just posted stats that agreed with the poster you quoted.
     
  14. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    Leon and RNH produced at a fine rate away from McDavid at 5v5. Puljujarvi didn't.

    Those two actually only struggled to produce when with Puljujarvi that year. Leon's line's GF/60 away from McDavid went from 1.74 to 2.42 when away from Puljujarvi too. RNH's went from 0(Yes, RNH and Pulju's line didn't score a single goal at 5v5 together) to 2.03.
     
  15. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
     
  16. Whyme Registered User

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    So are you saying RNH and Drai were exceptional centers at the time they played with Pulju? At the end of the season Nuge's and Pulju's points/60 were close (1.779 vs 1.523) even though Nuge had over twice as many PP minutes. At the end of the season Pulju was +5, Nuge -10, Drai +7. And many Oilers got their stats better towards the end of the season when the team was doing great.

    22 December 2016:
    Pulju's points/60: 1.66 (4th best of the team)
    Nuge's points/60: 1.21
    Pulju: +5
    Nuge: -9

    So Nuge didn't produce exeptional numbers at the time when Pulju was in the team. I don't have Drai's numbers stored, but should be able to find them with a bit of digging when I've got time. Playing with McD was a pretty different thing compared to playing with other centers at that time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  17. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    RNH and Drai were more than adequate top6 options at the time.


    Pulju was 6th in 5v5 P/60 at that point and obviously it's going to be high after he just scored over half his points in 4 games(aka 17% of his total ice time).

    They weren't going to keep scoring at a rate that's almost 50% higher than McDavid and Leon have ever scored together.
     
  18. Whyme Registered User

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    I've only got my saved notes or what I know I can find from this forum and I'm highly surprised if they're wrong. In fact according to my notes Pulju's points/60 was the 3rd best at the beginning of December, but it got worse during the last stint of games when he sat more than played and when he lost all production, playing mainly with Caggiula, Pouliot and the likes.

    I don't have the skills to find actual points/60 stats at a specific time. But I don't know if you realize you're looking at anything about Pulju through pretty dark glasses. You are allowed to say mine are of the opposite color, that's fair enough, but I hope you see this really depends on the point of view.

    Everyone here agreed Pulju would've deserved one more point in those four games so the point totals could've turned out to be nice if he'd got to play more with McDavid. Even without PP time. But this is speculation as we just can't know how it'd turned out. I suppose we can still say at the time Jesse used the time he got with McDavid quite nicely and it's not wrong to think some other coach might've kept him there for longer. This is far from the original point anyway :)
     
  19. Al from New Jersey Registered User

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    No where in his post did he say Draisaitl or RNH didn't outperform Puljujarvi away from McDavid.

    "It wasn't just Pulju who struggled away from McDavid but pretty much everyone else including Drai and Nuge."

    Puljujarvi struggled more than the other two, yes. But everyone struggled away from McDavid.
     
  20. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    They didn't though.

    They were fine without McDavid and actually pretty good when away from McDavid and Puljujarvi.
     
  21. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    I try to be fair to Pulju, but I vehemently disagree with anyone who says Pulju played well or wasn't given a fair chance in his rookie season.

    There's literally nothing statistically or visually to back that up.
     
  22. Whyme Registered User

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    I didn't even mean to say those things. I thought he was taken away from McD too soon, I hoped to see him on the PP, but the only thing I didn't really like was the last 10 games or so, those were ridiculous by McLellan. All in all I think the Oilers were fair enough towards Jesse during the first season.

    I guess it all started when I said Yamamoto and Pulju were handled in a different way when they started their NHL careers and I won't back from that statement. I actually like that you choose stats to back your statements, I'm just tired of the picking we both do :)

    But statistically speaking it's not possible that Nuge was a great center at the time, but Pulju wasn't an NHL calibre player as they both had pretty similar numbers at the time. If we go to additional stats (plusminus and corsis) Pulju was even pretty clearly ahead. I'll have to leave this and go to bed now as it's too late here really.
     
  23. McDNicks17 Moderator

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    Like I said, with such a small sample size, his totals are extremely skewed by those four games.

    Nuge didn't get the McDavid bump. Puljujarvi did. And not in convincing fashion either. Go back and watch those goals. Two were blocked shots that went right to McDavid, one was because the puck hit Pulju while he was laying on the ice and the other, the only one where Pulju actually meant to pass it, was a 10 foot pass from his own blueline to McDavid who skated it into a breakaway.

    There's really no comparison between Leon, RNH and Pulju in his rookie year.
     
  24. Eskimo44 Registered User

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    I'm almost certain from what I can recall when the Oilers made the playoffs in Puljujarvi's rookie season Nuge played the toughest minutes in the league of any center with exception to Bergeron and Zetterburg and iirc for most of the year he was actually leading. The Oilers heavily leaned on Nuge in a checking role and is a very overlooked reason as to why they had such a great year. Nuge has done nothing but make massive sacrifices for this team and it's a big part of the reason his offense seemingly stagnated, he was becoming a more complete player instead.
     
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  25. Whyme Registered User

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    Exactly and I respect him just the way he is now. But he's had times when he's had trouble with prduction. I'm sure you remember fans didn't take it too nicely, as they were expecting offensive game, which he didn't bring enough, and as the defenside side isn't as well (and I don't think he was at his best at the time) respected fans made him seem worse than he was.

    Even now I wouldn't talk about an incredible center, I'd rather say he can be a very good winger if he's placed with proper players and a fairly good, reliable center if needed.
     

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