Player Discussion Jesse Puljujärvi | His Mouth Contain His Tongue Only When He Eats Pizza
- Thread starter Soli
- Start date
- Status
MoneyGuy
Wandering
- Oct 19, 2009
- 6,979
- 1,367
Kaako Kappo
Kaako Kappo
I did not flame you. You derailed the discussion after losing an argument. Which you are still doing.
I said Euro forwards who had immediate NHL success coming from overseas as teenagers. That excludes defensemen, players who broke out later and had played in North America before making the NHL jump
Bratt didn't make the NHL until 2 seasons after the draft and only really put up 3rd line numbers with a good deal of those alongside Hall.
Sergachev and Provorov are Dmen and played in the CHL prior to the draft.
Rantanen plays 2 AHL seasons after the draft and didn't really break out until he was 21.
Pastrnak didn't break out until he was 20.
Zacha hasn't done much of anything yet and AGAIN, he played in the CHL.
Bukarovsky has had an inconsistent career thus far and AGAIN, he played in the CHL.
Ehlers played in the CHL and didn't break out until he was 20.
Laine, Barkov and Aho are the 3 I know of that fit the criteria of seamlessly transitioning to the NHL from Euro leagues. The first two are truly special talents and Aho is the big surprise. I knew that he was good but really surprised that he's so good so soon.
So really there are few that are able to make a big impact right off the bat or in other words, lets give Pulju more time before giving up on him.
Generally, it's tough for these kids to transition from the culture and game in Europe to North American culture and game. A lot tougher than it is for kids coming from the CHL.
Oh and to add one more thing, a lot of those players broke out when they got full time top 6 roles alongside highly skilled players and premium PP time neither of which Puljujarvi has been afforded yet. It's amazing what playing with other highly skilled players consistently can do for the confidence of a skilled young player.
Last edited:
ChokeOnOil
Lambs to Lions
Let’s all cool off a bit here, guys.
I think we would all be pleased if the progress of the player was exceptional. Why not just agree to disagree and see how it goes this season on the basis that the conversation is getting a tad intense?
He was gifted his 2nd line spot when the season started after missing all of camp. He lost it on his own doing. But that’s not really on topic and I know your love for Slepy so I’ll leave it at that.
Soli
Supervision Required
- Sep 8, 2005
- 21,731
- 11,138
You did flame him, which was why it was deleted. Everyone's welcome to post here, but if you create work for the mods then you're not gonna feel so welcome. Let's be respectful of the natives.
Discussion back on track please.
Excellent post. Now I’m sitting here waiting for the goalposts to be moved again in response.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
A mod just asked this to get back on track and this is the innuendo you post.
I've engaged the discussion with McCup and rebutted. To something that wasn't even my theory. It was he that had the theory that all Euros except "future hall of famers" (his choice of words) initially do poorly in the NHL and take a lot of time.
So my list suggests that is not the case. Unless one categorizes all I listed as future HOF.
But the thing is, I was discussing Puljus actual play. The direction that McCup INTRODUCED was the one moving the goal posts from the player specific discussion at hand. Which I only responded to.
Last edited:
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Virtually every one of the players was listed in Quant hockey as age 19 in a season in which they posted MORE NHL pts than anything Pulju has put up and several of them have been outstanding players, already, by the age of 19 or 20. Multiple of them actually driving some of the production they have been involved in.
Also I specifically stated and listed players that had BETTER stats that were same age, than Pulju. So that Pastrnak, for instance already had 27, 26pt seasons YOUNGER than Pulju is now. Also keeping in mind he was playing not much more than half seasons in Boston. In fact in rookie season he put up an impressive 27pts in only 46GP.
Now I note you throw in an added clause in response. So that your theory is now transformed to ONLY Euro players that are not HOF candidates and that have not played in CHL struggle initially in the NHL. Which is a bit weird because in the present world virtually all NHL bound players have played in small rinks before, have played in NA tournaments before or even on NA sized ice in Europe. Every top Euro pick would have already spend considerable time training on NA sized ice surfaces. Its not like its a completely different sport.
Now if I can summarize it was your theory that Euros struggle more initially. A struggle not borne out in facts, and a theory in which no NHL GM, or team subscribes to. The amount of times I've heard a present day scout say "lets not pick this Euro here because they will struggle here" approaches zero. The burden of proof, as always for a theory, falls on the person making it. You did not fully support your theory or substantiate it with proof. You provided some anecdotal evidence, so did I to counter. But in the end its not clear your theory holds water. In past Don Cherry years maybe you could find quotes to support your view
Its now assumed top Euro picks are highly talented and highly able to play at this level and land here effectively. Its why so many of them get picked high these days. For instance Pulju. The flipside, if one accepts your theory, is that of a negative light on Euro prospects in general, but again unfounded and unsupported by evidence.
Nobody is giving up on Pulju. Where is this narrative always coming from? Just because his play TO THIS DATE is being critiqued (perfectly valid) does not mean people saying he'll never be anything.
Virtually every one of the players was listed in Quant hockey as age 19 in a season in which they posted MORE NHL pts than anything Pulju has put up and several of them have been outstanding players, already, by the age of 19 or 20. Multiple of them actually driving some of the production they have been involved in.
Also I specifically stated and listed players that had BETTER stats that were same age, than Pulju. So that Pastrnak, for instance already had 27, 26pt seasons YOUNGER than Pulju is now. Also keeping in mind he was playing not much more than half seasons in Boston. In fact in rookie season he put up an impressive 27pts in only 46GP.
Now I note you throw in an added clause in response. So that your theory is now transformed to ONLY Euro players that are not HOF candidates and that have not played in CHL struggle initially in the NHL. Which is a bit weird because in the present world virtually all NHL bound players have played in small rinks before, have played in NA tournaments before or even on NA sized ice in Europe. Every top Euro pick would have already spend considerable time training on NA sized ice surfaces. Its not like its a completely different sport.
Now if I can summarize it was your theory that Euros struggle more initially. A struggle not borne out in facts, and a theory in which no NHL GM, or team subscribes to. The amount of times I've heard a present day scout say "lets not pick this Euro here because they will struggle here" approaches zero. The burden of proof, as always for a theory, falls on the person making it. You did not fully support your theory or substantiate it with proof. You provided some anecdotal evidence, so did I to counter. But in the end its not clear your theory holds water. In past Don Cherry years maybe you could find quotes to support your view
Its now assumed top Euro picks are highly talented and highly able to play at this level and land here effectively. Its why so many of them get picked high these days. For instance Pulju. The flipside, if one accepts your theory, is that of a negative light on Euro prospects in general, but again unfounded and unsupported by evidence.
Nobody is giving up on Pulju. Where is this narrative always coming from? Just because his play TO THIS DATE is being critiqued (perfectly valid) does not mean people saying he'll never be anything.
You're still not reading my posts fully.
This reminds me of some people I talk to when I'm talking to them and I can tell they aren't really listening because they are thinking of what they're going to say to me next instead of actually listening to what I'm saying.
Again, I'm talking about Euro forwards who never played in a North American league until post-draft so that eliminates most of the names you mentioned.
Again, (and I'm really not insulting you by saying this), it's common sense to understand that it's a difficult transition for most Euro teenagers to transition to a different culture and yes, the game is different here than it is in Euro leagues. There's a lot less space to create in the NHL and the game is more physical. It's a different game on this side of the pond, it's still hockey but it's different and there's usually an adjustment period for these kids. Training on smaller ice surfaces isn't the same as playing highly competitive hockey on smaller ice surfaces. The majority of their hockey has been played on bigger ice surfaces.
Also, the one full season he played in the NHL, the team was a total disaster so it's difficult for a teenage kid to gain traction when the entire team is crumbling around him. There are things he needs to improve on for sure and some of that is on him of course but these kids need a good support system as well and he hasn't had that here to date.
Now lets see what this season brings and if he can make that jump to being a more consistent top 6 level player. If he still struggles to find his footing and looks often lost then I will share your concerns but I'm in wait and see mode with him right now.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Do you think that you DON'T do this? That you aren't reading my replies fully? Its human psychology to self listen than to listen and concentrate fully to others. Indeed its one of the problems with communication. But if others are inferring such things as what common sense is (the invocation of which is potentially demeaning, mostly without intent) and in cases where it isn't actually established common sense that is bound to be rebuked.
Look we all understand culture, adaptation, etc, is a transition. That much is a known. Its work. But we also know most young pro athletes thrive on such challenges and have surpassed anything you or I would consider to be challenges on a routine basis.
So neither of us deny that adaptation exists. However your theory was that it actually impacted performance significantly. That Euro players were far less likely (only HOF candidates were stated exceptions) to have success initially in the NHL. That was your theory, and I'm not falsely describing it. In your context you even suggested it was common sense to realize that Young Euros performance would be adversely impacted. That is the part that I questioned. As I've mentioned its a theory espoused nowhere in hockey literature, it isn't professed by teams or scouts or GM's that its an implacable obstacle. YOU surmise that its a significant performance limiting obstacle, and really, you haven't proved that it is. You took us down one sidebar discussion that was no more illuminating on the actual player in question here, Puljujarvi. Does he appear to have some challenges adapting? Sure. Is it his job to get over these efficiently further to the most effective play he can bring? Sure.
Which brings us back to ground zero, Puljujarvi, struggling with limitations and challenges in the harsh face of potential stardom..
(Quasi Cameron Crowe quoting Lester Bangs)The biggest irony in this being that a former linemate, Aho, considered draft inferior, has arrived at the NHL show in grand manner and surpassed Pulju to this point. That is one very specific concern. As another poster mentions it even begs the question of which player was driving in Junior. Agents have got this wrong before. I'm not saying they got it wrong this time but the returns are not pretty to this point.
Now finally, I am taking the time to respond to virtually all of your points, indepth, not to hear myself, but to respect your talking points. You almost completely ignore my replies, not even responding to specific points in some of them, like the last one you quoted, while telling me I'm not listening..
Last edited:
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Next, so Pulju vs Aho then. Its a discussion that should be occurring. It would literally be impossible to watch any Canes game in the last 2 seasons and not specifically note Aho being impressive and driving plays, making plays every game. Plus that its a little hard to argue that Aho is just along for the ride if he leads his team in scoring. Yes he did. He damn well stirs the drink in Carolina now.
To what extent was he stirring Pulju? its a fair question to ask now.
Of note Aho did not play in NA prior, he did not play in CHL, he played in Finland. So the usual excuses seem not to have applied to him. Indeed he's never needed any, he's hitting it out of the ballpark.
The more troubling question is how does Pulju feel when contemporaries like Laine, Aho, Rantenen, Barkov have excelled, even become NHL stars, and he's struggling just to find an NHL niche still. I bet it hammers at him. But he created this by not being ready at the starters gun. In comparison to the drive shown by the others to be difference makers every shift Pulju instead, existing on a team of McDavid, Drai, Nuge has seemingly been content being a lesser light that doesn't even distinguish from a Khaira or a Caggiulia. This is a huge problem. For sure I have questions about why he hasn't expected more of a role for himself here.
To what extent was he stirring Pulju? its a fair question to ask now.
Of note Aho did not play in NA prior, he did not play in CHL, he played in Finland. So the usual excuses seem not to have applied to him. Indeed he's never needed any, he's hitting it out of the ballpark.
The more troubling question is how does Pulju feel when contemporaries like Laine, Aho, Rantenen, Barkov have excelled, even become NHL stars, and he's struggling just to find an NHL niche still. I bet it hammers at him. But he created this by not being ready at the starters gun. In comparison to the drive shown by the others to be difference makers every shift Pulju instead, existing on a team of McDavid, Drai, Nuge has seemingly been content being a lesser light that doesn't even distinguish from a Khaira or a Caggiulia. This is a huge problem. For sure I have questions about why he hasn't expected more of a role for himself here.
Last edited:
Do you think that you DON'T do this? That you aren't reading my replies fully? Its human psychology to self listen than to listen and concentrate fully to others. Indeed its one of the problems with communication. But if others are inferring such things as what common sense is (the invocation of which is potentially demeaning, mostly without intent) and in cases where it isn't actually established common sense that is bound to be rebuked.
Look we all understand culture, adaptation, etc, is a transition. That much is a known. Its work. But we also know most young pro athletes thrive on such challenges and have surpassed anything you or I would consider to be challenges on a routine basis.
So neither of us deny that adaptation exists. That is a known. However your theory was that it actually impacted performance significantly. That Euro players were far less likely (only HOF candidates were stated exceptions) to have success initially in the NHL. That was your theory, and I'm not falsely describing it. In your context you even suggested it was common sense to realize that Young Euros performance would be adversely impacted. That is the part that I questioned. As I've mentioned its a theory espoused nowhere in hockey literature, it isn't professed by teams or scouts or GM's that its an implacable obstacle. YOU surmise that its a significant performance limiting obstacle, and really, you haven't proved that it is. You took us down one sidebar discussion that was no more illuminating on the actual player in question here, Puljujarvi. Does he appear to have some challenges adapting? Sure. Is it his job to get over these efficiently further to the most effective play he can bring? Sure.
Which brings us back to ground zero, Puljujarvi, struggling with limitations and challenges in the harsh face of potential stardom..
The biggest irony in this being that a former linemate, Aho, considered draft inferior, has arrived at the NHL show in grand manner and surpassed Pulju to this point. That is one very specific concern. As another poster mentions it even begs the question of which player was driving in Junior. Agents have got this wrong before. I'm not saying they got it wrong this time but the returns are not pretty to this point.
Now finally, I am taking the time to respond to virtually all of your points, indepth, not to hear myself, but to respect your talking points. You almost completely ignore my replies, not even responding to specific points in some of them, like the last one you quoted, while telling me I'm not listening..
How did I ignore your replies? Cite one example. If so, then that's on me (see, it's possible to meet somebody half way
)Sorry I had to be a bit snippy but it's frustrating when I ask for a very specific example in my post then you not only went on to list examples that weren't relative to what I was asking, you then piggybacked on it in the next post instead of admitting that you made an error. Argh, you remind of the women in my life. Please, for the love of god, listen to the words that are coming out my mouth.
Moving on, I acknowledged that Aho was one of those examples of a Euro kid that adjusted quickly. Good on him, he's a better driver of offense than Pulju is and I think even a lot of Finnish posters have been saying this since before he broke out in the NHL. That doesn't mean Pulju can't be a good player in his own rite, he's just developing at a different pace and is more dependent on linemates to support him.
In any event, I'm not saying that culture shock is the sole reason for Pulju's struggles as I outlined in previous posts. Some of that is on him for sure and perhaps he's just not as skilled as previously hyped but yes, I certainly do think in this particular case considering how little English he knew and where he came from in Finland that the transition to North America was tougher on him than most so I'm willing to give him a bit more rope than I would give a kid that has played in North America his entire life. For example, you don't think it was easier for Dubois and Tkachuk to transition to the NHL game?
Really, all players this young should get some benefit of the doubt, he just turned 20 and he's a young 20.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
How did I ignore your replies? Cite one example. If so, then that's on me (see, it's possible to meet somebody half way
Sorry I had to be a bit snippy but it's frustrating when I ask for a very specific example in my post then you not only went on to list examples that weren't relative to what I was asking, you piggybacked on it in the next post. Argh, you remind of the women in my life. Please, for the love of god, listen to the words that are coming out my mouth.
Moving on, I acknowledged that Aho was one of those examples of a kid that adjusted quickly. Good on him, he's a better driver of offense than Pulju is and I think even a lot of Finnish posters have been saying this since before he broke out in the NHL. That doesn't mean Pulju can't be a good player in his own rite, he's just developing at a different pace and is more dependent on linemates to support him.
In any event, I'm not saying that culture shock is the sole reason for Pulju's struggles as I outlined in previous posts. Some of that is on him for sure and perhaps he's just not as skilled as previously hyped but yes, I certainly do think in this particular case considering how little English he knew and where he came from in Finland that the transition to North America was tougher on him than most so I'm willing to give him a bit more rope than I would give a kid that has played in North America his entire life. Really, all players this young should get some benefit of the doubt, he just turned 20 and he's a young 20.
heh
Ah, so now the transition is harder on Pulju specifically.
Thanks for squaring that. jk.The part you didn't listen to (and should have and it would have saved the reason for the the whole sidebar discussion) is that your theory that NA cultural adaptation is averse for Euro players and that it significantly impacts their performance is false from the start and not backed by anybody that I've heard of except some past dinosaurs like Don Cherry who was sour on Euro players in the first place. Really if this was a thing, and I've mentioned this countless times in the exchange, then it would be reflected in NHL drafting and teams steering somewhat away from Euro players which doesn't occur. You ignored that point EVERY time I made it.
Apparently you like to argue almost as much as I like to discuss.
wink.Finally, being a "young 20" is just a nice way to say "lacking in maturity". Or behind where his Finnish pro hockey peers are in terms of maturity.
ps, yes it kind of disturbs me that I might remind you of some past relationships you have had in your life. heh, but on a jk note they maybe had a few pointers there too.
Last edited:
heh
Ah, so now the transition is harder on Pulju specifically.
The part you didn't listen to (and should have and it would have saved the reason for the the whole sidebar discussion) is that your theory that NA cultural adaptation is averse for Euro players and that it significantly impacts their performance is false from the start and not backed by anybody that I've heard of except some past dinosaurs like Don Cherry who was sour on Euro players in the first place. Really if this was a thing, and I've mentioned this countless times in the exchange, then it would be reflected in NHL drafting and teams steering somewhat away from Euro players which doesn't occur. You ignored that point EVERY time I made it.
Apparently you like to argue almost as much as I like to discuss.
It wouldn't be reflected in NHL drafting because teams usually draft for long term potential at the top of the draft, not who is more NHL ready. There's always exceptions but I don't think teams are scared off by a player who might not make a huge impact in the NHL as a teenager as long as he has a high level skillset and/or fills a need.
It's really difficult to cite a bunch of examples of Euro prospects who played overseas vs. Euro and North American prospects who played in North America leading up to the draft so I gave you examples of players many posts ago that either played overseas for several years post-draft or struggled a bit to start their NHL career.
Again, I'm just saying that I believe that culture shock played a role in Pulju's struggles, not that it was the only reason why he struggled. You seem to think that it isn't much of a factor which is fine, neither of us can really prove it either way so here we are at the OK Corral at a stand off keeping the gun powder dry and just staring at each other for days and days.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Sorry about all the replies. Insomnia here and a storm outside so can't really go for a walk.
You forgot that I talked about teams drafting and probably wanting ELC benefit as well, which in a tight capped league is a very significant prospect benefit. The difference between a player that is producing during ELC and one that isn't is immense value served. Its been stated as one of the best value contracts possible in capped era. Indeed teams have build SC winning depth around these one time advantages. We haven't really got anything out of Pulju during the ELC, maybe this changes this season. We know from scouting reports and what they state that teams put a lot of stock in which players are ready to hit the ground running. They really do evaluate that part. Its often mentioned in high picks. Its enough of a reason to even move away from a pick. The expectation, as stated in scouting reports, was that he was an NHL ready candidate. Ready to play here. Almost plug and play. Its what we were told.
You have to think of it as stocks. Its reasonable to state that teams would look at the long game with prospects. i.e. what is the peak performance of the stock. But given a choice everybody wants stocks to return regularly or quarterly as well. The point that doesn't seem to be conveyed well enough in this thread is that my stating that players like Aho and Pastrnak have drastically outperformed means those specific time frames which we are never getting back. The reality too is that Aho will of course now have more career production than Pulju. I doubt it will even be close.
Sure, patience is a virtue, but its hard to smile at that with a stock that is not performing while others have nabbed some ISO's that are initially performing like gangbusters.
I gotta get to work so I'll just reply to one particular point about the ELC. The ELC only kicks in when the player plays the 9 games so for instance, if the player isn't ready at 18, you can still optimize the value of the ELC by being patient with the player and starting it at 20 years old or whenever he's ready but then you're looking at a big 2nd contract (like Drai for instance) so it's a double edged sword. In this case, I think it actually works to the Oilers benefit if he breaks out later because the cap squeeze should loosen up by the time Pulju is due for the bigger contract (if he gets to that level).
I'm not understanding why Pulju has to be as good as Pastrnak and Aho to be a good player for the Oilers. Those guys are Draisaitl level players, very high level 1st liners so that's a big ask of anybody.
Furthermore, every prospect develops at their own pace. Just because he's not as good as those players now, that doesn't mean that he can't or won't be 4-5 years from now. Sometimes the light just goes on all of a sudden for highly skilled young players, all it takes is some confidence and they take off and never look back. Again, he JUST turned 20 so I wouldn't put a cap on his potential yet. Who knows if he'll reach it but he's just entering his 2nd full NHL season, still lots to be determined with this player.
Ok, I just had to reply to two particular points.
Anyway, I gotta run but I'll read your reply later.
You gonna cry to the mods about everything you don’t like? Anyway, you did exactly as predicted as you always do.
The direction he introduced was what he introduced, then you moved the goal posts to suit your opinion. Like he said, it’s like talking to someone who doesn’t listen and only wants to blab about what they think.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Predictably you are not on topic regarding the thread. You think what you think. The irony being most of your posts are about other posters, and not about actual Oilers related content. Is that not something you might consider changing?
Please don't respond to that, not being rude, just that the thread is about Puljujarvi.
PulYou
Registered User
- Feb 16, 2018
- 635
- 792
Just want to point out something, although it does not really matter, but Aho was one year older than Pulju, when he entered the NHL.
This does not mean that I don't appreciate Aho, just that these comparisons to me are not reasonable or fair. At least to me it looked like Pulju's game was comparable to Aho's in Finnish SM-liiga, Although Pulju was one year younger before 2016.
While 17 Aho played 30 liiga games with 4 goals and 13 points. At the same age Jesse played 50 games with 13 goals and 28 points.
This does not mean that I don't appreciate Aho, just that these comparisons to me are not reasonable or fair. At least to me it looked like Pulju's game was comparable to Aho's in Finnish SM-liiga, Although Pulju was one year younger before 2016.
While 17 Aho played 30 liiga games with 4 goals and 13 points. At the same age Jesse played 50 games with 13 goals and 28 points.
Risingwind
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2015
- 595
- 107
About Aho. I’m not seeing any revisionist history here, but a couple things should be considered in context. Him dropping out of the 1st round wasn’t a surprise at the time it happened, since his play in the Liiga for the season leading up to his draft was certainly promising, but not really mesmerizing. It was during his draft+1 season when he exploded big time. He did get hotter towards the draft, but serious hindsight is needed to push him up to top 15 or even just into 1st round.
Another point is that he got to spend his draft+1 year with coach Marjamäki, who critisized how Pulju was being handled in Edmonton in his draft+1 year and was hoping he could have more time with Pulju before going over to NA (I couldn’t find a source, but I remember reading articles about it after the interview). Marjamäki coached his junior players in things like how to live a daily life as a professional athlete. In Pulju’s case, it seems like he didn’t learn enough about that if we accept the talk about maturity issues as fact. Aho was already drafted, and was in a position where he could spend his season preparing for NHL duties. Joonas Donskoi is another player that just wasn’t good enough to make the transition before Marjamäki fixed him. Meanwhile Pulju was learning to survive in the Liiga, and perhaps didn’t focus on these sorts of things enough.
Marjamäki also left the team at the same time as Aho and Pulju, so JP going back to his coaching wasn’t an actual option anyway.
Another point is that he got to spend his draft+1 year with coach Marjamäki, who critisized how Pulju was being handled in Edmonton in his draft+1 year and was hoping he could have more time with Pulju before going over to NA (I couldn’t find a source, but I remember reading articles about it after the interview). Marjamäki coached his junior players in things like how to live a daily life as a professional athlete. In Pulju’s case, it seems like he didn’t learn enough about that if we accept the talk about maturity issues as fact. Aho was already drafted, and was in a position where he could spend his season preparing for NHL duties. Joonas Donskoi is another player that just wasn’t good enough to make the transition before Marjamäki fixed him. Meanwhile Pulju was learning to survive in the Liiga, and perhaps didn’t focus on these sorts of things enough.
Marjamäki also left the team at the same time as Aho and Pulju, so JP going back to his coaching wasn’t an actual option anyway.
That is one very specific concern. Why is it even a concern. Yes one fellow Finn from the same draft has out performed him. OMG! Is the sky falling because of it?
- Status
