Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part VII) - Pretty Mint Edition

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Habs Halifax

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I'm well aware of that, thanks.

Thomas was in my head after seeing his name down the rookie scoring list, below Kotkaniemi for example, and I flashed back to all the Pacioretty or ROR proposals last summer and the nauseating way a lot of Blues fans went about discussing him.

I can't even make a good inside joke in here.

I don't blame the Blues for being high on Thomas. He's good and I think he will be a top 2C. The war I had with the Blues fans was about Patch's value. They made a mockery of insisting we would not get Thomas type value and more for Patch. Well, we did. Suzuki is close to Thomas value (pre NHL) and we got Tatar and the 2nd on top.

The difference however between Suzuki and Thomas varies though in terms of the type of style they play. Suzuki might be a play making winger with goal scoring ability while Thomas is a center no doubt. Kind of like Poehling IMO. Big strong boys who play 200' games.

I remember saying Poehling and Thomas were similar assets. People laughed cause they think Poehling don't have offensive ability. To some degree it's true but Poehling has more offensive ability than most are willing to give him credit for. Comparing CHL production to NCAA production is not the same.
 
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Ebony Mackenzie

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I don't blame the Blues for being high on Thomas. He's good and I think he will be a top 2C. The war I had with the Blues fans was about Patch's value. The made a mockery of insisting we would not get Thomas type value and more for Patch. Well, we did. Suzuki is close to Thomas value (pre NHL) and we got Tatar and the 2nd on top.

The difference however between Suzuki and Thomas varies though in terms of the type of style they play. Suzuki might be a play making winger with goal scoring ability while Thomas is a center no doubt. Kind of like Poehling IMO. Big strong boys who play 200' games.

I remember saying Poehling and Thomas were similar assets. People laughed cause they think Poehling don't have offensive ability. To some degree it's true but Poehling has more offensive ability than most are willing to give him credit for. Comparing CHL production to NCAA production is not the same.

I don't either, I said did say some Blues fans. Thomas is a legit prospect, someone I was hoping would fall to 25 for the Habs at that draft.

On the topic of prospect value, now that I'm older I just assume most fans who overrate or over-expect on their favorite teams prospects, for lack of a better term, are just young, and have hardly lived through a few prospect cycles of seeing players not materialize and bust. Hell, when I was younger I was thinking Hainsey, Komisarek and Markov would be the Habs new "Big 3", that's so ridiculous. So I do take fans' value on here with a grain of salt, but it is still fun to discuss and speculate.

And I appreciate your scouting reports here too!
 

BB88

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Jan 19, 2015
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I know many posters are soiling their pants at the thought of Koko Puffs as a #1 center. I hope they are right but I don't see it. On a contender Kotkaniemi is a #2. Even on an average team I don't see KK possessing the skills to be a #1 but then again we did have DD as a #1 so anything is possible.

Don't bet against a kid with smarts.
 
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417

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I don't blame the Blues for being high on Thomas. He's good and I think he will be a top 2C. The war I had with the Blues fans was about Patch's value. They made a mockery of insisting we would not get Thomas type value and more for Patch. Well, we did. Suzuki is close to Thomas value (pre NHL) and we got Tatar and the 2nd on top.

The difference however between Suzuki and Thomas varies though in terms of the type of style they play. Suzuki might be a play making winger with goal scoring ability while Thomas is a center no doubt. Kind of like Poehling IMO. Big strong boys who play 200' games.

I remember saying Poehling and Thomas were similar assets. People laughed cause they think Poehling don't have offensive ability. To some degree it's true but Poehling has more offensive ability than most are willing to give him credit for. Comparing CHL production to NCAA production is not the same.
Lesson to be learned here is that none of us really know what's appropriate value for players...what other fanbases think of trade proposals or the value of Habs players is irrelevant.
 
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Mrb1p

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Lesson to be learned here is that none of us really know what's appropriate value for players...what other fanbases think of trade proposals or the value of Habs players is irrelevant.
We do know, though. Look at market value over the years, it doesn't vary that much, aside from the few hiccups a la Hall.
 
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JuicyHam

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I don't want to start any arguments with anyone on here but we're through 48 games which was the length of the lockout season. What we're the impressions of Galchenyuk through 48 games(the full season) compared to Kotkaniemi? I'm just genuinely curious because I don't quite remember what people were thinking at the time.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Jun 12, 2007
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I don't want to start any arguments with anyone on here but we're through 48 games which was the length of the lockout season. What we're the impressions of Galchenyuk through 48 games(the full season) compared to Kotkaniemi? I'm just genuinely curious because I don't quite remember what people were thinking at the time.

I thought he had shown offensive flashes, but didnt show nowhere near the same level of overall aptitudes.

I'd rather compare him to Subban. Subban was similar in that very early on he showed he had an amazing tool set, you could just tell he'd be a first pairing at minimum.

That's what I see from KK. Bare minimum first line center.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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I know many posters are soiling their pants at the thought of Koko Puffs as a #1 center. I hope they are right but I don't see it. On a contender Kotkaniemi is a #2. Even on an average team I don't see KK possessing the skills to be a #1 but then again we did have DD as a #1 so anything is possible.

You remind me of the people who were saying Pacioretty would be no more than a 3rd line player, when we were only in his rookie season.

I rarely make bold statements about prospects and young players. KK will be a 1st line center.
 
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417

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I don't want to start any arguments with anyone on here but we're through 48 games which was the length of the lockout season. What we're the impressions of Galchenyuk through 48 games(the full season) compared to Kotkaniemi? I'm just genuinely curious because I don't quite remember what people were thinking at the time.
I was impressed with Galchenyuk the lockout season, though it's really difficult to evaluate that year since it was such an odd one. A lot of players didn't come back in the best of shape or were just unprepared.

He had some nice flashes as someone mentioned already, but I found he was more raw than what Kotkaniemi has shown us.

Kotkaniemi's much more polished despite being younger.
 

NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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I don't want to start any arguments with anyone on here but we're through 48 games which was the length of the lockout season. What we're the impressions of Galchenyuk through 48 games(the full season) compared to Kotkaniemi? I'm just genuinely curious because I don't quite remember what people were thinking at the time.

Jesperi's better.
 

417

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Jesperi's better.
I never saw any progress in Galchenyuk as a player following year 1 until today...he's still the same player, same strengths & weaknesses. No progression or very little of it.

Kotkaniemi is so polished, I have zero concerns when he's on the ice and I found it foolish a few games ago when CJ was shielding him in order to play Chaput (who promptly flipped the puck over the glass for a delay of game penalty - hope this taught CJ a valuable lesson).

If it wasn't for the fact that we all know Kotkaniemi is 18...no one would know just by watching him.

Big paws, on a small pup.
 
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Habs Halifax

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I don't either, I said did say some Blues fans. Thomas is a legit prospect, someone I was hoping would fall to 25 for the Habs at that draft.

On the topic of prospect value, now that I'm older I just assume most fans who overrate or over-expect on their favorite teams prospects, for lack of a better term, are just young, and have hardly lived through a few prospect cycles of seeing players not materialize and bust. Hell, when I was younger I was thinking Hainsey, Komisarek and Markov would be the Habs new "Big 3", that's so ridiculous. So I do take fans' value on here with a grain of salt, but it is still fun to discuss and speculate.

And I appreciate your scouting reports here too!

Other teams fan base throw ours under the bus on these boards. It's a trend. A lot of people just want to made a trade where they are the winners outright and don't work at trying to stay respectful and engaging at trying to meet each others needs.

Blues fans ignored Patch's value and didn't acknowledge that we respected they had Thomas as a keeper. They further went at trolling attempts saying we would not get Thomas value and therefore, we should trade Patch for cheap. Ridiculous trade negotiation strategy. It's counter productive but it's HF boards and part of the culture.

No doubt about it... fans jump on board with hope in prospects reaching their ceiling. We all fall in this trap from time to time. My focus in the last 2 or 3 years was evaluating probability of hitting with elite level or top of the line-up talent and how this is tied to where you pick and the quantity of picks you have. My homework told me Probability was working in our favor and I got attacked for it. The group of prospects in 2012 are not the same as what we have today. Yeah, we will have busts but the quantity of prospects and quality of prospects we have is top of the league. We have both working in our favor and in 2012, we lacked quantity. Bergevin miscalculated this IMO and I think he has learned from it. Takes time.

Evaluating prospects:

1) Look at their draft plus development years prior to turning pro (NHL/AHL). Are they world junior candidates? Did they perform well when the faced the best 18 and 19 year olds in the world. This is a great measuring stick. How is their play on the ice look in the leagues they plan in and how are they gaining momentum? Take Beaulieu for example, he did not look good in the world juniors if you ask me and he played on a stacked Saint John team. The strengths to this game was not being reliable but he had the tools. McCarron for example had a decent CHL career but lacked foot speed where the US didn't even consider him for their U20 roster. That was a concern of mine back when but I ignored it. I turned to hope and that usually don't work out well.

2) Look at how their game translate once they turn pro and the depth around them. This reveals a lot. Less time and space and a more physical game affects many prospects by a wide margin. And if the depth around them is not great, this might hold them back from showing their true potential. If the depth around them is poor and they still perform... you got a potential elite level talent. Take Kotkaniemi for example, I bet his stats are much better if he played with better wingers who know how to score and make plays with him. It's impressive he is showing ability to play a trusted 200' game by our coach so early at age 18. Lets see how hungry he is to keep improving and who his wingers end up being.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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Weirdly enough my dad ( who started watching hockey around 1958-59) said Kotka reminds him a lot of Beliveau too. I thought that was him exaggerating a bit or misremembering but I guess my old man was on to something there ! Stylistically at least there seems to be something to that comparison.
 
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