Injury Report: Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part IX)

[Habs Icing]

Me neither, but I don't think we have a championship team in that case. .

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said I have no problems seeing Danault as a #3 on a Cup WINNER and as a #2 on a Cup Contender. If you also have no problems seeing that than we have a championship team.

 

[NotProkofievian]

KK will get better linemates when he deserves it. How about getting better wingers for the center that has proven he hit 70 points with Drouin/Lehkonen on his left wing and on his right Shaw a #2 winger at best? And with very little PP time comparatively.

KK played with Drouin and how did that work out? Drouin went through the worst slump of the year. You guys were clamouring for KK to play on the PP - the first unit no doubt. How did that work out? The PP was crap before he went on it and it was double crap after he was on it.

You can give Gallagher to Domi, I'm fine with that. I don't see how that addresses my argument in any way, though. Why does Danault have to be given the best wingers? Why can't he be a matchups monster with Lehkonen and Armia?

KK is a year ahead of schedule, whatever criticisms you have of him. Yeah, he wasn't the saviour of this club, but not even his wildest supporters thought he'd get as far as he did this year. If I were you, I wouldn't bet against him. Think he's going to be a 34 point bambi on ice for the rest of his career? Yikes. Doesn't strike me as the smart money.

KK has yet to show any of this vision and IQ you guys were hailing.

When KK first center, you see, you see.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Not necessarily true. One possible scenario: KK becomes a stud #2 and Poehling is popping in goals a la Pacioretty on Domi's wing except Poehling will provide better hockey play than Patches.

Fair enough: it mostly likely means that one of Poehling or KK fizzled.

 

[NotProkofievian]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said I have no problems seeing Danault as a #3 on a Cup WINNER and as a #2 on a Cup Contender. If you also have no problems seeing that than we have a championship team.

The issue at hand is how that cup winner is built. Danault could be our goalie for all I care if it would win a cup. Poehling and KK emerging as 1 and 2 centers isn't even a sufficient condition for the building of a championship team, but it is pretty close to a necessary one.

 

[Habs Icing]

Yeah, he wasn't the saviour of this club, but not even his wildest supporters thought he'd get as far as he did this year.

You just created a strawman there. I never claimed his supporters thought he was a saviour. For a time he was given the most offensive (in all senses of the word) winger on the team and was unable to generate any offense. He was placed on the #1 PP unit and again was unable to generate any results. You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side? On the left he had Drouin for awhile and only helped to make JD's slump even longer. Are you suggesting MB go out and get two wingers so we can pamper KK.

I'm not betting against KK. I'm just not over the moon about this kid. I saw lots of holes in his game at the beginning of the season and still saw them at the end. Actually, other lapses were beginning to show up in his game. I thought and still do that he would have been better served by going down to Laval or back to Finland. I'll go even a step further. Next season it wouldn't surprise me if KK is sent down to Laval.

 

[NotProkofievian]

You just created a strawman there. I never claimed his supporters thought he was a saviour. For a time he was given the most offensive (in all senses of the word) winger on the team and was unable to generate any offense. He was placed on the #1 PP unit and again was unable to generate any results. You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side? On the left he had Drouin for awhile and only helped to make JD's slump even longer. Are you suggesting MB go out and get two wingers so we can pamper KK.

I'm not betting against KK. I'm just not over the moon about this kid. I saw lots of holes in his game at the beginning of the season and still saw them at the end. Actually, other lapses were beginning to show up in his game. I thought and still do that he would have been better served by going down to Laval or back to Finland. I'll go even a step further. Next season it wouldn't surprise me if KK is sent down to Laval.

Not really a strawman. It's hyperbole. Is different. On the other hand you committed a double standard, in addition to not responding to the substance of several of my arguments. For Domi, Drouin was a boat anchor, think about how many more points he could have if he didn't drag Drouin with him. For Kotkaniemi, look at this amazing winger KK was given. What an incredible opportunity and he did nothing with it, except make JD an even player for once lol. Drouin, at once a boat anchor and a victim, excellent winger and dead wood (zomg, hyperbole again).

And as for what KK did with his linemates, he's beyond reproach. The Montreal Canadiens were a dominant possession team with him on the ice.

Notice how all of the black boxes (player with 15) are closer to the right corner than all of the red boxes? What a coincidence. For reference purposes, this is the sort of chart that Subban has in his better years.

I can't tell you that you didn't notice holes in Jesperi's game. He's an 18 year old in the league, and I noticed a few myself. What I can tell you is that you're making mountains out of molehills. There is only one word to describe Jesperi's season: excellent.

And we're now three posts deep and you still haven't come close to answering a very simple question. Why should Danault get the best wingers on the team? Don't answer my question with another question( e.g.You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side?) You can put your thinking cap on for your own rhetorical questions.

I'll go even a step further.

This should be good.

Next season it wouldn't surprise me if KK is sent down to Laval.

Wow, what a bold call. ''It wouldn't surprise you.'' lol Really sticking your neck out there, risk taker.

 

[Habs Icing]

And we're now three posts deep and you still haven't come close to answering a very simple question. Why should Danault get the best wingers on the team? Don't answer my question with another question( e.g.You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side?) You can put your thinking cap on for your own rhetorical questions.

Drouin was able to produce with Domi, did squat with KK.

KK was played with the best offensive winger on the team. But that's not good enough for you. You, yourself said give Gallagher to Domi so what's left on the right side? Shaw. I thought according to some experts on this board Shaw was Shawful. I can just imagine if Shaw was played with KK and his production fell, I'm sure you would be the first to blame Shaw himself instead of the greenhorn.

Your point is play KK with the best wingers (he did nothing with Drouin, you don't like Shaw, give Gally to Domi) and that leaves Tatar. And if the Big Tuna doesn't work out, we should go out and trade for wingers so KK can have nice numbers. How about KK earns the right to have the best wingers.

I love that BS chart you showed us all. KK had the best possession numbers....YES while playing the most sheltered minutes and Danault with his line played against the toughest opponents.

KK didn't play with the best wingers because he was the best center neither on offense nor defense. Is that enough of an answer?

 

[Lenir105]

Drouin was able to produce with Domi, did squat with KK.

KK was played with the best offensive winger on the team. But that's not good enough for you. You, yourself said give Gallagher to Domi so what's left on the right side? Shaw. I thought according to some experts on this board Shaw was Shawful. I can just imagine if Shaw was played with KK and his production fell, I'm sure you would be the first to blame Shaw himself instead of the greenhorn.

Your point is play KK with the best wingers (he did nothing with Drouin, you don't like Shaw, give Gally to Domi) and that leaves Tatar. And if the Big Tuna doesn't work out, we should go out and trade for wingers so KK can have nice numbers. How about KK earns the right to have the best wingers.

I love that BS chart you showed us all. KK had the best possession numbers....YES while playing the most sheltered minutes and Danault with his line played against the toughest opponents.

KK didn't play with the best wingers because he was the best center neither on offense nor defense. Is that enough of an answer?

Droiin started playing with Kotkaniemi AFTER he decided to stop skating, Drouin was punished be being placed in the third line, but in fact, it was KK that eas punished by having. This version of Drouin with him. Drouin would never have been separated from Domi if he was still producing.

 

[Habs Icing]

Droiin started playing with Kotkaniemi AFTER he decided to stop skating, Drouin was punished be being placed in the third line, but in fact, it was KK that eas punished by having. This version of Drouin with him. Drouin would never have been separated from Domi if he was still producing.

When Drouin was moved off of Domi's wing, his production had dipped. It didn't dry up completely like it did with KK. Jeeze man do you guys have eyes to see how Domi and KK played the game.Max was setting up teammates at least 4-5 times a game. Domi could set me up for scoring chances. KK was barely keeping his head above water. He wasn't setting up anyone on a constant basis. And you want to place the best wingers with him.

You guys were also clamouring for the kid to be placed on the PP. You got your wish on the 1st unit no less. What did he accomplish?

 

[Mrb1p]

Or we could keep the 72 point center and trade the 53 point center, that might just be me tho.

BuT FacEoFfS

 

[admiralcadillac]

BuT FacEoFfS

BuT AcTuALlY WaTcHiNg HiM PlaY

 

[BaseballCoach]

2nd line... yet you posted numbers showing he's a first liner.

so 1st line it is.

I don't know what you are quibbling about. If a guy puts up 1st line type numbers for 63 games, what's wrong with me responding to a guy who says he does not even have 2nd line potential?

 

[Mrb1p]

BuT AcTuALlY WaTcHiNg HiM PlaY

I did watch every game this year, or most of them. I even mentionned anytime Danault turned over the puck in the offensive zone for a good 10 games this year, the numbers weren't pretty at all.

 

[cphabs]

When Drouin was moved off of Domi's wing, his production had dipped. It didn't dry up completely like it did with KK. Jeeze man do you guys have eyes to see how Domi and KK played the game.Max was setting up teammates at least 4-5 times a game. Domi could set me up for scoring chances. KK was barely keeping his head above water. He wasn't setting up anyone on a constant basis. And you want to place the best wingers with him.

You guys were also clamouring for the kid to be placed on the PP. You got your wish on the 1st unit no less. What did he accomplish?

You are using “0ur” PP to support your argument? Interesting...

 

[BaseballCoach]

Drouin was able to produce with Domi, did squat with KK.

KK was played with the best offensive winger on the team. But that's not good enough for you. You, yourself said give Gallagher to Domi so what's left on the right side? Shaw. I thought according to some experts on this board Shaw was Shawful. I can just imagine if Shaw was played with KK and his production fell, I'm sure you would be the first to blame Shaw himself instead of the greenhorn.

Your point is play KK with the best wingers (he did nothing with Drouin, you don't like Shaw, give Gally to Domi) and that leaves Tatar. And if the Big Tuna doesn't work out, we should go out and trade for wingers so KK can have nice numbers. How about KK earns the right to have the best wingers.

I love that BS chart you showed us all. KK had the best possession numbers....YES while playing the most sheltered minutes and Danault with his line played against the toughest opponents.

KK didn't play with the best wingers because he was the best center neither on offense nor defense. Is that enough of an answer?

Not entirely objective though.

Drouin was producing with Domi, then stopped producing with Domi. Maybe Drouin's production drop did not have to do with his centremen, but him.

What was very unfortunate for KK was that the Drouin he was given was in a terrible slump. You should not have to ask an 18 year old to shelter a 23-24 yo. The fact it was even considered shows that they think highly of KK.

Here is what I would like to see as the next step (not the lineup in 3 years!):

Drouin-Domi-Shaw
Lehkonen-Danault-Gallagher
Tatar-Kotkaniemi-Armia
Byron-Poehling-Weal

I don't care how you number the lines.

 

[cphabs]

You just created a strawman there. I never claimed his supporters thought he was a saviour. For a time he was given the most offensive (in all senses of the word) winger on the team and was unable to generate any offense. He was placed on the #1 PP unit and again was unable to generate any results. You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side? On the left he had Drouin for awhile and only helped to make JD's slump even longer. Are you suggesting MB go out and get two wingers so we can pamper KK.

I'm not betting against KK. I'm just not over the moon about this kid. I saw lots of holes in his game at the beginning of the season and still saw them at the end. Actually, other lapses were beginning to show up in his game. I thought and still do that he would have been better served by going down to Laval or back to Finland. I'll go even a step further. Next season it wouldn't surprise me if KK is sent down to Laval.

Why would you send Coconut to Laval?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Drouin was able to produce with Domi, did squat with KK.

KK was played with the best offensive winger on the team.

Lmfao. This is getting ugly.

But that's not good enough for you. You, yourself said give Gallagher to Domi so what's left on the right side? Shaw. I thought according to some experts on this board Shaw was Shawful. I can just imagine if Shaw was played with KK and his production fell, I'm sure you would be the first to blame Shaw himself instead of the greenhorn.

Your point is play KK with the best wingers (he did nothing with Drouin, you don't like Shaw, give Gally to Domi) and that leaves Tatar. And if the Big Tuna doesn't work out, we should go out and trade for wingers so KK can have nice numbers. How about KK earns the right to have the best wingers.

Shaw is better than Armia. Yes. Give Shaw to KK. Tatar is better than Lehkonen. Why not give KK one of these? But more to the point, why the b-list acting? ''ZERMG WHO ELSE IS THERE?'' Well, you seem to have rubbed your few brain cells together enough to provide the spark to figure it all out. Yes, I would like KK to have one or more of Shaw/Tatar/Gallagher/maybe we get lucky in the draft. What about it?

As I recall, you were actually the lone critical voice of the Drouin trade. Now he's the best on the team?

Notice you backed down from being more than ''not surprised.'' Didn't have the stomach for it after all? Lmao.

I love that BS chart you showed us all. KK had the best possession numbers....YES while playing the most sheltered minutes and Danault with his line played against the toughest opponents.

Lmao. So what? Of course he was sheltered. He was also excellent. You can't have asked more from Kotkaniemi, and to the extent that he could impress with the competition and team mates he was given, he excelled. He was still taking a regular shift in the NHL. Nobody's playing against only scrubs, and nobody's playing in the super NHL.

On the other hand, wanna know a fun fact? Without Gallagher or Tatar, Danault was a minus player and a possession black hole this year. Really earning them linemates.

KK didn't play with the best wingers because he was the best center neither on offense nor defense. Is that enough of an answer?

I actually didn't ask anything about KK. I asked about Danault. Why must Danault have the best wingers? He can't take muh tough matchups without the best wingers on the team padding his stats?

 

[Guns n Roses]

Why would you send Coconut to Laval?

Blasphemy

 

[Archijerej]

Drouin-Domi-Shaw
Lehkonen-Danault-Gallagher
Tatar-Kotkaniemi-Armia
Byron-Poehling-Weal

Again, having Gallagher and Lehkonen together is pretty much a definition of how NOT to construct a line, due to redundancy effect. Otherwise your lineup is basically what I expect us to look like next season.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Again, having Gallagher and Lehkonen together is pretty much a definition of how NOT to construct a line, due to redundancy effect. Otherwise your lineup is basically what I expect us to look like next season.

I also thought of flipping Byron and Lehkonen

 

[Lebowski]

I'd much rather have Poehling in the AHL than on the 4th line.

 

[Archijerej]

He was also excellent

No. If we're honest about it, he was pretty much shit for streches this season. He was excellent in other streches and ok-ish most of the other time. He was, however, able to help to develop a selective blindness among a significant part of the fanbase. He was able to do this on Galchenyuk level, which is pretty much elite, as Galchenyuk was an absolute master at creating hallucinations.

 

[Sorinth]

Not really a strawman. It's hyperbole. Is different. On the other hand you committed a double standard, in addition to not responding to the substance of several of my arguments. For Domi, Drouin was a boat anchor, think about how many more points he could have if he didn't drag Drouin with him. For Kotkaniemi, look at this amazing winger KK was given. What an incredible opportunity and he did nothing with it, except make JD an even player for once lol. Drouin, at once a boat anchor and a victim, excellent winger and dead wood (zomg, hyperbole again).

And as for what KK did with his linemates, he's beyond reproach. The Montreal Canadiens were a dominant possession team with him on the ice.

Notice how all of the black boxes (player with 15) are closer to the right corner than all of the red boxes? What a coincidence. For reference purposes, this is the sort of chart that Subban has in his better years.

I can't tell you that you didn't notice holes in Jesperi's game. He's an 18 year old in the league, and I noticed a few myself. What I can tell you is that you're making mountains out of molehills. There is only one word to describe Jesperi's season: excellent.

And we're now three posts deep and you still haven't come close to answering a very simple question. Why should Danault get the best wingers on the team? Don't answer my question with another question( e.g.You want to give Gallagher to Domi so what's left for KK on the right side?) You can put your thinking cap on for your own rhetorical questions.

Although I agree that Kotkaniemi had an excellent season and barring a bad training camp should play with our better wingers in a top-6 role it's quite likely that the reason most players seemed to have done so well with Kotkaniemi is because of how sheltered his role was. Everybody looks good in a sheltered role, so the stats you posted are less a result of Kotkaniemi being great and more an indication of the role he played.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'd much rather have Poehling in the AHL than on the 4th line.

So he'll learn more playing with Dale Weise than Artturi Lehkonen? Getting passes from Max Lamarche instead of Victor Mete? Feeding Daniel Audette rather than Jordan Weal?

I'm ok with him going to Laval if he can't cut the NHL but I think he already can and I'm sure he will get the chance to prove it again in camp.

 

[Archijerej]

Why must Danault have the best wingers?

I think the answer to this is pretty obvious. He is our best centerman and about twice the player Kotkaniemi is at this stage of their respective careers.