Injury Report: Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part IX)

[NotProkofievian]

Or we could keep the 72 point center and trade the 53 point center, that might just be me tho.

 

[SOLR]

If we have enough good centers to make Domi expendable, we will get more for him by trading a 72 point center than by moving him internally to LW.

That doesn't make any sense. The fact that a player can move position does NOT make him more valuable to another team.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That doesn't make any sense. The fact that a player can move position does NOT make him more valuable to another team.

What I am saying is that 72 point centers have a lot of value, more than 72 point wingers and certainly more than 45 point wingers.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Why the f*** would we trade the 72 point center instead of the 53 point center if we had too many centers?

 

[Archijerej]

If Domi stays at C, Montreal isn't all that deep on the wing, actually. Not deep enough to supply quality wingers for Poehling, not if suzuki plays in the AHL, as he perhaps should.

I disagree. But your definition of depth is obviously different than mine since you have Armia as an extra forward. I believe Byron/Lehkonen - Poehling - Weal would be an excellent 4th line, at least when taken in isolation, without considering factors like chemistry, for example.

Montreal needs at least two more scoring wingers to have a strong top-9 and have a solid 4th line because other players like Byron and Shaw have been bumped down as a result.

What you're describing is perhaps the best winger depth in the entire NHL. I don't deny that adding another top-6 winger would go a long way, but we are strong as it is. Also, I don't know what Byron has to do to be recognized as an excellent middle-6 forward.

IMO, here's the short term depth chart for the Habs with players needed to fill the holes identified by Xs

I believe those are line combinations rather than a depth chart, otherwise it's hard to explain why do you have Drouin above Tatar and XXX above Gallagher. Who is this XXX guy? Taylor Hall?

 

[Archijerej]

Why were Jesperi Kotkaniemi and Ryan Poehling tried at left wing at season end when they were drafted as centermen?

Because we had better options at center available at that moment (for various reasons), but the management still wanted to give them playing time in the NHL. Also, Kotkaniemi has played 77 games at center this season.

 

[Habs Icing]

Why the **** would we trade the 72 point center instead of the 53 point center if we had too many centers?

The more important question is why would you move a 72 point center to the wing?

As for your question it depends what that 53 point center brings to the team that the other centers don't. Right now the 53 point center is the best two way center on the team and probably a top 10-15 in the league. Until someone steps up the centers for this team are
Domi
Danault
KK
Weal

And in that ****ing order. KK hasn't even ****ing shown that he can play a full season but we're going to move Domi to the wing and Danault to another team so we can make him #1. Jeeze and some of you guys have the audacity to say Julien doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Archijerej]

Why the **** would we trade the 72 point center instead of the 53 point center if we had too many centers?

Better question: Why the hell would we even accept a narrative that we have too many centers? Do people watch the Islanders this year and see what an elite fourth line can provide for a non-elite club? But I guess if Poehling ends up playing fourth line minutes, he loses his value as masturbatory aid for prospect watchers.

 

[ahmedou]

lmao

No more fatigue with Copper Branch.

 

[Archijerej]

The more important question is why would you move a 72 point center to the wing?

As for your question it depends what that 53 point center brings to the team that the other centers don't. Right now the 53 point center is the best two way center on the team and probably a top 10-15 in the league. Until someone steps up the centers for this team are
Domi
Danault
KK
Weal

And in that ****ing order. KK hasn't even ****ing shown that he can play a full season but we're going to move Domi to the wing and Danault to another team so we can make him #1. Jeeze and some of you guys have the audacity to say Julien doesn't know what he's doing.

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but some quick remarks:
- it was Danault who was the most used center both at even strength and overall, so technically he's above Domi.
- I believe we SHOULD at some point strongly consider moving Domi to wing. I find his defensive game subpar.

In an ideal world I'd have Kotkaniemi as a #1 option, and Danault/Poehling in no particular order as middle six options behind him. Specific usage would depend on factors like Poehling's development, linemates, chemistry, tactics, opponents etc. Now, this may never materialize, or it may be possible only long time from now, but it's a scenario in which I could see Domi playing wing.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The more important question is why would you move a 72 point center to the wing?

As for your question it depends what that 53 point center brings to the team that the other centers don't. Right now the 53 point center is the best two way center on the team and probably a top 10-15 in the league. Until someone steps up the centers for this team are
Domi
Danault
KK
Weal

And in that ****ing order. KK hasn't even ****ing shown that he can play a full season but we're going to move Domi to the wing and Danault to another team so we can make him #1. Jeeze and some of you guys have the audacity to say Julien doesn't know what he's doing.

The current discussion is about what to do if Poehling and KK force Danault to be the 4th best center on the team. It's my opinion that we should generally trade from the bottom of our lineup as opposed to the top. But for some reason Danault is untradable to some around here, likely because of ''muh tough minutes.''

Better question: Why the hell would we even accept a narrative that we have too many centers? Do people watch the Islanders this year and see what an elite fourth line can provide for a non-elite club? But I guess if Poehling ends up playing fourth line minutes, he loses his value as *********ory aid for prospect watchers.

What do you think Danault could fetch in a trade and how does that compare to his value to this team as a 4th line center?

 

[Archijerej]

What do you think Danault could fetch in a trade and how does that compare to his value to this team as a 4th line center?

This question would of course be very relevant if I shared your opinion on Danault. As of today he is the best centerman on this roster in my estimation, so when I think about the fourth line I think of Poehling.

 

[NotProkofievian]

This question would of course be very relevant if I shared your opinion on Danault. As of today he is the best centerman on this roster in my estimation, so when I think about the fourth line I think of Poehling.

No, Domi is the best center on the team by a wide margin, but regardless, I'm not asking the question ''as of today.'' I'm not advocating for the trade to be made on draft day. I'm asking the question in the eventuality that Poehling and Kotkaniemi force Danault into the 4C role. Would you care to answer it in that context?

 

[Archijerej]

No, Domi is the best center on the team by a wide margin, but regardless, I'm not asking the question ''as of today.'' I'm not advocating for the trade to be made on draft day. I'm asking the question in the eventuality that Poehling and Kotkaniemi force Danault into the 4C role. Would you care to answer it in that context?

Disagree on Domi.

Sorry, I only noticed you were talking about a hypothetical future scenario. So here is my answer: if Danault would end up being a fourth best center on this roster, then yeah. Trade his ass away for a king's ransom! Problem is, some people act like if it was already the case and I'm not sure such a scenario is even remotely plausible in the future.

 

[Habs Icing]

The current discussion is about what to do if Poehling and KK force Danault to be the 4th best center on the team. It's my opinion that we should generally trade from the bottom of our lineup as opposed to the top. But for some reason Danault is untradable to some around here, likely because of ''muh tough minutes.''

That's a question that optimistically should be asked in two, three years. Poehling hasn't even played one game at center for the Habs and we're already entertaining the notion that he's a veteran stud center man. The way I see it right now Domi is by himself as an offensive center man. No one can touch him as the offensive force on this team. Many think KK will join him. I don't see it but I'm open to the possibility. I think he will top off as a #2 but I wouldn't do anything to impede his progress. So KK, Weal and Danault have their respective roles. Maybe Poehling dislodges one of them next season, maybe he doesn't but my guess is Danault for next season at least will get the top minutes. So if anything will develop where we will need to trade Danault it will only be in two years. And two years in the NHL is a lifetime.

 

[Habs Icing]

Disagree on Domi.

Sorry, I only noticed you were talking about a hypothetical future scenario. So here is my answer: if Danault would end up being a fourth best center on this roster, than yeah. Trade his ass away for a king's ransom! Problem is, some people act like if it was already the case and I'm not sure such a scenario is even remotely plausible in the future.

Agree with everything but your take on Domi. For me it's a toss up between Danault and Domi. Phil gives the match ups you need and Max the offense.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Disagree on Domi.

Sorry, I only noticed you were talking about a hypothetical future scenario. So here is my answer: if Danault would end up being a fourth best center on this roster, than yeah. Trade his ass away for a king's ransom! Problem is, some people act like if it was already the case and I'm not sure such a scenario is even remotely plausible in the future.

Yeah, it's not the case already, but I'm willing to bet that it becomes the case in the near future. More importantly I think it's one of the only ways that this team returns to relevancy. If it doesn't happen, then I have some bad news for you.

 

[NotProkofievian]

That's a question that optimistically should be asked in two, three years. Poehling hasn't even played one game at center for the Habs and we're already entertaining the notion that he's a veteran stud center man. The way I see it right now Domi is by himself as an offensive center man. No one can touch him as the offensive force on this team. Many think KK will join him. I don't see it but I'm open to the possibility. I think he will top off as a #2 but I wouldn't do anything to impede his progress. So KK, Weal and Danault have their respective roles. Maybe Poehling dislodges one of them next season, maybe he doesn't but my guess is Danault for next season at least will get the top minutes. So if anything will develop where we will need to trade Danault it will only be in two years. And two years in the NHL is a lifetime.

That's actually an interesting point for discussion. Who are KK's wingers going to be for the next couple years? I get the belief that Danault is a magical matchup unicorn (I don't agree with it, but that's for the Danault thread), but I don't actually understand why he needs Gallagher and Tatar to do it.

For next year that's pretty much all I ask: better linemates for KK. This will naturally come with a more challenging deployment for KK but that's an appropriate next step for him anyways.

 

[Archijerej]

Yeah, it's not the case already, but I'm willing to bet that it becomes the case in the near future. More importantly I think it's one of the only ways that this team returns to relevancy. If it doesn't happen, then I have some bad news for you.

Being in a position where we can trade a player of Danault's quality (doesn't have to be him specifically) because he's no longer needed in your top-9 is obviously a significant advantage. But I don't believe we'll be in such position in the near future (next one or two seasons). It's more of a long term scenario I believe, and will concern one of our wingers, who'll be made redundant by Domi.

 

[Habs Icing]

Yeah, it's not the case already, but I'm willing to bet that it becomes the case in the near future. More importantly I think it's one of the only ways that this team returns to relevancy. If it doesn't happen, then I have some bad news for you.

I have no problems seeing Danault as a #3 on a Cup winner and a #2 on a contender. If one of KK, Weal or Poehling can dislodge him within the next couple of years than we have an excellent team.

 

[Archijerej]

Agree with everything but your take on Domi. For me it's a toss up between Danault and Domi. Phil gives the match ups you need and Max the offense.

Oh, I'm not saying that the gap is large. Domi's offensive game is a massive asset, therefore he's OK as an exploitation center. But if Danault can keep up this year's form, I give him a slight edge.

 

[Habs Icing]

That's actually an interesting point for discussion. Who are KK's wingers going to be for the next couple years? I get the belief that Danault is a magical matchup unicorn (I don't agree with it, but that's for the Danault thread), but I don't actually understand why he needs Gallagher and Tatar to do it.

For next year that's pretty much all I ask: better linemates for KK. This will naturally come with a more challenging deployment for KK but that's an appropriate next step for him anyways.

KK will get better linemates when he deserves it. How about getting better wingers for the center that has proven he hit 70 points with Drouin/Lehkonen on his left wing and on his right Shaw a #2 winger at best? And with very little PP time comparatively.

KK played with Drouin and how did that work out? Drouin went through the worst slump of the year. You guys were clamouring for KK to play on the PP - the first unit no doubt. How did that work out? The PP was crap before he went on it and it was double crap after he was on it. KK has yet to show any of this vision and IQ you guys were hailing.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I have no problems seeing Danault as a #3 on a Cup winner and a #2 on a contender. If one of KK, Weal or Poehling can dislodge him within the next couple of years than we have an excellent team.

Me neither, but I don't think we have a championship team in that case. I think our road to a championship team rests with a couple more Pacioretty like trades and some prospects breaking really well for us.

If Danault is our 3C, that means one of Poehling or KK fizzled (and Domi is kept at C, which is only sensible), which is a loss of value. It's not just the marginal value of Danault vs Poehling/KK as a 2C but actually the entire loss of a hypothetical return on Danault that could be playing in our top 9 on the wing.

To add, if this doesn't happen quickly, new problems will present themselves. I don't know about you but Weber didn't look all that spry to me at the end of this season. If things don't happen quickly, we'll be playing whack a mole or hoping to be rescued by the deeper depths of our prospect pool.

 

[Habs Icing]

That doesn't make any sense. The fact that a player can move position does NOT make him more valuable to another team.

Baseball coach's point is take a look at Domi's skills and weaknesses. They're perfectly suited for center and disadvantaged for the wing. So instead of devaluing your asset by moving him to the wing trade him for his full value. But that will never happen because I doubt any of the centers we have now will develop into better centers than Domi.

 

[Habs Icing]

Me neither, but I don't think we have a championship team in that case. I think our road to a championship team rests with a couple more Pacioretty like trades and some prospects breaking really well for us.

If Danault is our 3C, that means one of Poehling or KK fizzled (and Domi is kept at C, which is only sensible), which is a loss of value. It's not just the marginal value of Danault vs Poehling/KK as a 2C but actually the entire loss of a hypothetical return on Danault that could be playing in our top 9 on the wing.

To add, if this doesn't happen quickly, new problems will present themselves. I don't know about you but Weber didn't look all that spry to me at the end of this season. If things don't happen quickly, we'll be playing whack a mole or hoping to be rescued by the deeper depths of our prospect pool.

Not necessarily true. One possible scenario: KK becomes a stud #2 and Poehling is popping in goals a la Pacioretty on Domi's wing except Poehling will provide better hockey play than Patches.