Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part IV

[montreal]

If he stays he's going to destroy our chance at a lottery pick.

I doubt that unless you are thinking he puts up around 50 pts.

 

[THE HOFF]

I understand that galchenyuk is the "closest" situation we can compare kotkaniemi's situation with, but the gap of talent in playmaking abilities, 2way play and hockey IQ makes the comparison pointless.

Kotkaniemi is still finding out about his limits, the league, what he can or can't do. Faceoffs, hitting, i mean it might not look spectacular and eye catching but he's been learning and you can see it from game to game.

As long as he logs 14 minutes and plays with confidence i see no reason to panic.

 

[Andrei79]

a)Barkov missed the draft offseason due to injury,
b)Barkov got injured at the Olympics
c)He played with garbage players who couldn't get contracts after.

Fair points that did influence his production quite a bit.

 

[Mrb1p]

I understand that galchenyuk is the "closest" situation we can compare kotkaniemi's situation with, but the gap of talent in playmaking abilities, 2way play and hockey IQ makes the comparison pointless.

Kotkaniemi is still finding out about his limits, the league, what he can or can't do. Faceoffs, hitting, i mean it might not look spectacular and eye catching but he's been learning and you can see it from game to game.

As long as he logs 14 minutes and plays with confidence i see no reason to panic.

No.

This is coming from what youve seen of Galchenyuk over the last 6 years, not from the rookie Galchenyuk who had all the talent in the world.

 

[Habaneros]

If he stays he's going to destroy our chance at a lottery pick.

when Montreal signs Christoball(wall) Huet this Febuary will know it's real

 

[417]

It's not cliche because once you put that kid in the NHL, you don't know what he's going to be playing well and producing so you are taking a risk that isn't necessary as you don't know what impact it will have on his confidence, which imo is such a huge part of hockey and when you mess with it, it can be very hard to get back.

His production (on pace for 42pts) nor his confidence seem to be affected at this point...not every 18yr old is cut from the same cloth.

Kotkaniemi seems very mature and grounded for his age.

Of course, things can change and the onus is really on the veterans, coaches and management to keep a close eye on this.

Also while 35 pts in the NHL would be solid, a ppg in Liiga for a U-19 player would be among the best all time seasons which is kind of my point. I have said many times we don't know what's best for him, but to me if you waited one year I don't see the harm. Now had he spent all year in Liiga and say he puts up a ppg, his confidence could be sky high coming into camp next fall.

But what does that really mean?

Teemu Pulkinen has the record for best u-18 season in the Liiga with 54pts in 55 games...he's never been able to establish himself.

Sebastian Aho has the 2nd best record for best u-18 season with 45pts in 45 games...he's a star

Joel Armia is 8th on this list...he's a solild player, but far from a star.

Christian Ruutu is the leader for points during an U-19 season...Christian Ruutu was a solid NHLer, but far from a star.

In the grand scheme of things, other than bragging rights, these things don't mean much as it relates to NHL success.

So i'm always at a loss to know why this matters more than actual NHL production to many people???

It's just what I would have preferred we try instead of the usual let's rush this kid and hope it works. Seeing how he's so smart and good defensively, I think he sticks and I'm sure things will work out but I'm against taking the risk by an organization that has so badly developed talent in the last 6 years.

Fair point - I get being against something that hasn't worked in the past.

I don't know what's going to happen with Kotka but I don't think he's playing as well as you and it worries me since so much is riding and we may not get a 2nd chance after this for some time which could push us back years. Granted who knows what will happen, but I don't see why people would question why others don't trust an organization that has been run into the ground with poor decisions, so when our most important decision comes up and they take a riskier approach vs just leaving him in Liiga for year then at least some are going to say I worry you aren't make the best decision once again.

I'd be curious to know what you don't like about his game so far?

And mind you, I certainly don't think he's been perfect either.

 

[montreal]

His production (on pace for 42pts) nor his confidence seem to be affected at this point...not every 18yr old is cut from the same cloth. Kotkaniemi seems very mature and grounded for his age.

But what does that really mean?

Teemu Pulkinen has the record for best u-18 season in the Liiga with 54pts in 55 games...he's never been able to establish himself. So i'm always at a loss to know why this matters more than actual NHL production to many people???

I'd be curious to know what you don't like about his game so far?

we'll see as the season progresses, what kind of production he has. If he struggles to produce we just don't know what impact that will have on him no matter how ground or mature he seems. You can't know what's in a players head or how things effect them.

As for having a great Liiga season it doesn't mean anything in terms of the NHL. What you want is to build confidence by having a great season and then see him build off that over here. There's no do this and you develop fine, when dealing with 17/18/19 year olds some are just going to peak, others are just going to continue to get better, I don't think you can really say which ones will be the former or the latter. To me development is about stages and I prefer taking my time vs rushing it as I'd rather use a little caution vs what could be a career killer.

As for his game, he just doesn't look like he's playing that well. I think he can be a lot better but he looks like he's just getting by out there. Other then a few plays here and there he just looks more like a passenger. Look at Tkachuk, he looked like he was playing his game and was a force out there, now I would be shocked if he kept that up and clearly he's more physically mature so that helps but for a 3rd OA I want to see him playing great and I think he can I just don't think he's ready for it. If they had of waited a year and then he came into camp next fall, bigger, stronger, quicker, better skater, it certainly would like bode much better for him.

But, well, that doesn't help the comparison. Galchenyuk's issues weren't caused by him staying after his draft year, they developped after, for many reasons. Here you're basically ignoring all of that in order to make a point about both being in the NHL at around the same time, which doesn't make much sense.

Don't agree as some of Galchenyuk's issues he had at 17 and still has them. That's a sign of poor development. Now some of that is on him for sure, but at 17 he had skating, speed, defensive issues and while Kotka clearly doesn't have defensive issues, and his skating/speed doesn't seem to be as much of a problem as Galchenyuk's were at the same age they are still concerns imo.

 

[cphabs]

Coconut’s “200” foot game is above average in the NHL as an 18 year old. Positionally sound and getting better. There is no denying it. Why is he playing 2nd fiddle to Danault? Hmmm... we draft a hyper skilled offensive center that can play in his own zone while being developed as a 3rd/4th liner for? Danault. Next stage will be trying Coconut as a winger to make room for Hudon. I shit you not.

 

[cphabs]

Galchenyuk was the more hyped “prospect”, but he ended up having fatal flaws. Kotkaniemi doesn’t really have any holes in his game.

Then why are we treating Coconut’s development like his? LOL

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Then why are we treating Coconut’s development like his? LOL

What are you talking about?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Coconut’s “200” foot game is above average in the NHL as an 18 year old. Positionally sound and getting better. There is no denying it. Why is he playing 2nd fiddle to Danault? Hmmm... we draft a hyper skilled offensive center that can play in his own zone while being developed as a 3rd/4th liner for? Danault. Next stage will be trying Coconut as a winger to make room for Hudon. I **** you not.

the Healthy scratched Hudon ? that Hudon you're talking about ?


you're trying too hard...

 

[cphabs]

the Healthy scratched Hudon ? that Hudon you're talking about ?


you're trying too hard...

Not at all. That is the sad part.

 

[Tyson]

Kotkaniemi has given me hope as a Habs fan. I watch because of him, he has really surprised me

 

[ECWHSWI]

Not at all. That is the sad part.

Ok the, no problem explaining why you think HEALTHY SCRATCH Hudon would suddenly get Golden opportunities ? ? Cause you noticed hes healthy scratch right ?

 

[BB88]

What are the odds he could go to WJC over AHL?

He should be able to absolutely dominate the tourney, especially with wingers like Kakko/Tolvanen/Vesalainen.

If he hasn't exploded offensively by that time it could be a good 2 weeks to build confidence up.

 

[DAChampion]

What are the odds he could go to WJC over AHL?

He should be able to absolutely dominate the tourney, especially with wingers like Kakko/Tolvanen/Vesalainen.

If he hasn't exploded offensively by that time it could be a good 2 weeks to build confidence up.

It would be disgraceful of the Habs to not send him to the WJC.

 

[BB88]

It would be disgraceful of the Habs to not send him to the WJC.

Edmonton didn't send Pulju there(should have), and I have no idea what Montreals thinking is with that.

This year the tourney is in Canada(close) and good chance to build confidence in a short amount of time.

 

[cphabs]

Ok the, no problem explaining why you think HEALTHY SCRATCH Hudon would suddenly get Golden opportunities ? ? Cause you noticed hes healthy scratch right ?

Yes I did.

 

[gillyguzzler]

Let's just enjoy the kid's progression and potential. It's been a while since we've had a young player with such potential.

 

[tooji]

I think whether or not the habs decide to send Kotka dependa on a lot of factors, namely where we are in the standings and how Kotka is performing. If there is one indication that bodes well for him going it’s that Mete seemed to benefit a lot from it.

 

[Habaddict]

I think whether or not the habs decide to send Kotka dependa on a lot of factors, namely where we are in the standings and how Kotka is performing. If there is one indication that bodes well for him going it’s that Mete seemed to benefit a lot from it.

Those factors should never be taken into account!!! that"s just stupid on the team"s part, if they are willing to burn the most important year of his development by playing Kotka in the NHL. This is not similar to Chuck"s situation when he was kept. Chuck had to be returned to junior, where he was silly dominant. Kotka can play against professional men in Finland. This is
an oppertunity to excel ,or even dominate against grown men. and because they play
less games, and travel less, there is more recovery time, so he can work on strength/explosiveness and skating. This year is too valuable to waste .

 

[Belial]

Those factors should never be taken into account!!! that"s just stupid on the team"s part, if they are willing to burn the most important year of his development by playing Kotka in the NHL. This is not similar to Chuck"s situation when he was kept. Chuck had to be returned to junior, where he was silly dominant. Kotka can play against professional men in Finland. This is
an oppertunity to excel ,or even dominate against grown men. and because they play
less games, and travel less, there is more recovery time, so he can work on strength/explosiveness and skating. This year is too valuable to waste .

This whole idea that dominating against a lesser opposition is more beneficial for your development is complete bs IMO.

You dominate! You don't need to work as hard, you can cheat, you don't need to surpass yourself game after game!

Playing against the best is what makes you better!

 

[BaseballCoach]

This whole idea that dominating against a lesser opposition is more beneficial for your development is complete bs IMO.

You dominate! You don't need to work as hard, you can cheat, you don't need to surpass yourself game after game!

Playing against the best is what makes you better!

True story.

I used to run a baseball league for all of Southwestern Quebec, 200+teams of all ages and classes.

One year, my board gave a derogation permission to a very weak team to allow them to play the regular season in Midget B even though by the demographic rules, they were supposed to field a Midget A team. They made the case they were too weak and we granted the regular season derogation. The condition was that they would be ineligible for the year-end Regional Championship in Midget B and if they wanted to participate, it would have to be at the 'A' Championship.

They proceeded to finish first, regularly beating the other Midget B teams with a 16-4 record. They registered for the year-end championship, in Midget A according to the agreement.

Suddenly I get objections from one of the Midget A teams.

"How could you let this happen, it's a travesty".

"They spent the whole year GAINING CONFIDENCE, now they might well beat all the teams that slugged it out in Midget A".

"This disaster is going to be on YOU."

Actual result: The derogated team lost BADLY in the first round, as their fielders were not sharp, their hitters could not hit faster pitching, and their pitchers couldn't understand why the umpire was calling such a "tight" strike zone!

Confidence without ever winning against TOUGH challengers is worse than useless - it's negative.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Alright f*** it, that pass made me change my mind.

 

[Andrei79]

True story.

I used to run a baseball league for all of Southwestern Quebec, 200+teams of all ages and classes.

One year, my board gave a derogation permission to a very weak team to allow them to play the regular season in Midget B even though by the demographic rules, they were supposed to field a Midget A team. They made the case they were too weak and we granted the regular season derogation. The condition was that they would be ineligible for the year-end Regional Championship in Midget B and if they wanted to participate, it would have to be at the 'A' Championship.

They proceeded to finish first, regularly beating the other Midget B teams with a 16-4 record. They registered for the year-end championship, in Midget A according to the agreement.

Suddenly I get objections from one of the Midget A teams.

"How could you let this happen, it's a travesty".

"They spent the whole year GAINING CONFIDENCE, now they might well beat all the teams that slugged it out in Midget A".

"This disaster is going to be on YOU."

Actual result: The derogated team lost BADLY in the first round, as their fielders were not sharp, their hitters could not hit faster pitching, and their pitchers couldn't understand why the umpire was calling such a "tight" strike zone!

Confidence without ever winning against TOUGH challengers is worse than useless - it's negative.

See, you're constantly missing the mark with these awful examples. Add the mocking and really the issue here is you're just not interested in a genuine conversation about the subject, so you're not reading what people are writing.

Obviously, if you take an established A team and send them against B teams then that team will be wholly unprepared coming back into the playoffs against A teams.

Nobody's asking an established NHLer like Max Domi to get some more seasonning down in the AHL for the playoff run.

I'm personally watching a player who played well (but not exceptional) in AA asked to jump up to AAA star all while showing signs of needing work. And by that I mean even learning how to get open, which is freaking important skill that makes not only you, but all of your teammates that much less effective. Had he destroyed AA then you wouldn't hear anyone ask themselves if this is the optimal route. And the reasons are obvious: he'd have already shown that he's beyond that stage.

Get it ? Optimal. Not "only". Meaning the NHL is an option and no, staying does not mean he'll bust even if he's rushed. But the question here is if its the best option seeing the current weaknesses in his game, the lack of need to have him up and how this management has a history of improperly deploying and developing its prospects.