Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part IV

[Saundies]

I'm not evaluating him on his ability to dominate. I am factoring in how this helps his development and he gets to measure his game against players his own age. It would be a refreshment drink in the middle of the season for him where learning on the job playing against the best players in the world can be draining.

Pretty sure the Habs can live without him for 6 or 7 games while he tries to win that tournament for his country. I think this is good for his development.

But wait, the Habs are in a rebound/pride season where we want to make the playoffs where anything can happen. We need our 18 year old kid who don't look out of place.

You're right.. what's that old saying about growth and growing? You do the most of it when you're planted firmly in your comfort zone?

Come on. He belongs in the NHL, where he'll take faceoffs and play every night against grown men who are right now better than him and learn from it. This isn't a Habs vs. Development issue, it's an NHL development vs. WJC development issue.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You're right.. what's that old saying about growth and growing? You do the most of it when you're planted firmly in your comfort zone?

Come on. He belongs in the NHL, where he'll take faceoffs and play every night against grown men who are right now better than him and learn from it. This isn't a Habs vs. Development issue, it's an NHL development vs. WJC development issue.

So the 6 or 7 games he would miss is a big deal for you?

 

[DAChampion]

Kotkaniemi should absolutely go to the world juniors.

 

[groovejuice]

Taking a player, who is contributing on an NHL team, out of its lineup to send them on an international tournament for 3 weeks would be short term...

So I think you got that the wrong way.

WJC's are nice, but it's not better than the NHL.

I think that's a debatable point. I'm pretty sure that a majority of players who participate in these kind of tournaments see them as valuable and a stepping stone for success at higher levels. The NHL will still be there after 2 weeks. That short time frame could hardly be anything but at worst, neutral.

 

[Habs Halifax]

it didn't do a damn thing for his development...

It didn't hurt his development or the team either. Take your pick... there is no bad plan. There is only the preferred plan.

I want to tank so taking Kotkaniemi out of the line-up and playing your boy Pleky as 3C for 6 or 7 games might help us lower our pick and get a better draft lottery shot. I have motives

 

[417]

I think that's a debatable point. I'm pretty sure that a majority of players who participate in these kind of tournaments see them as valuable and a stepping stone for success at higher levels. The NHL will still be there after 2 weeks. That short time frame could hardly be anything but at worst, neutral.

There are plenty of players who have played in the WJC's and never amounted to anything...

Jeremy Colliton played in the WJC's 1yr before Jonathan Toews did...

You know where he is today?

Coaching Jonathan Toews lol

 

[417]

It didn't hurt his development or the team either. Take your pick... there is no bad plan. There is only the preferred plan.

It had no impact on his development...well i should say, it's a part of his makeup as a player just like all of his experiences playing hockey are.

 

[groovejuice]

There are plenty of players who have played in the WJC's and never amounted to anything...

Jeremy Colliton played in the WJC's 1yr before Jonathan Toews did...

You know where he is today?

Coaching Jonathan Toews lol

This in no way disproves the value of participating in the WJC. There are always exceptions. How many top NHL players have that tournament in their résumés?

 

[Saundies]

This in no way disproves the value of participating in the WJC. There are always exceptions. How many top NHL players have that tournament in their résumés?

How many top NHL players, who were doing fine on their NHL teams, were sent back to play in the tournament? That list is a lot shorter.

 

[417]

This in no way disproves the value of participating in the WJC. There are always exceptions.

It wasn't meant to disprove the value of participating in the WJC, of course there's value in it, there's value in participating in any games at that high of a level.

But it's not more valuable then playing in the NHL and it's not a precursor to being a more successful NHL player.

There's no correlation...people just like to make it, when it's convenient.

Jonathan Drouin played in 2 WJC's, 13pts in 13 games...is he a better player today because of it?

Would he be any different of a player today, had he not gone?

How many top NHL players have that tournament in their résumés?

And many player's don't...

Tyler Seguin never played at the WJC's...but trust me, if there was an international competition today.

He'd be on Team Canada.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It had no impact on his development...well i should say, it's a part of his makeup as a player just like all of his experiences playing hockey are.

You would have to ask Mete that question and any other player who played in that tournament that was in the middle of the NHL season. I don't have the answer. All I know, Is I support Kotkaniemi playing in that tournament and I value him measuring his game against the best 18/19 year olds in the world. I also don't believe the 6 or 7 games he would miss is bad for our team. Why? Cause I think we are fighting for a wild card spot and hard to say if we just miss the playoffs or just make it. I'm done with trying to make the playoffs "where anything can happen". It's a game for losers.

I want to be in the top 10 or bottom 10. If we are in the middle 11, I want our team to be a team on the rise. Are we a team on the rise and a potential top 10 cup contender here? I don't think we are.

 

[417]

You would have to ask Mete that question and any other player who played in that tournament that was in the middle of the NHL season. I don't have the answer. All I know, Is I support Kotkaniemi playing in that tournament and I value him measuring his game against the best 18/19 year olds in the world.

He's the same player today than he was before he left for the WJC...

I'm not saying he didn't get anything from it, again, it's an experience and all these experiences make up who you eventually become.

But to suggest that sending him down to the WJC, would make Kotkaniemi a better player if he dominated is far fetched at best.

 

[Saundies]

It wasn't meant to disprove the value of participating in the WJC, of course there's value in it, there's value in participating in any games at that high of a level.

But it's not more valuable then playing in the NHL and it's not a precursor to being a more successful NHL player.

There's no correlation...people just like to make it, when it's convenient.

Jonathan Drouin played in 2 WJC's, 13pts in 13 games...is he a better player today because of it?

Would he be any different of a player today, had he not gone?


And many player's don't...

Tyler Seguin never played at the WJC's...but trust me, if there was an international competition today.

He'd be on Team Canada.

I just don't understand how, when kids are growing up and dominating their age group, the conventional wisdom for them is to move them up a league and compete against older kids. That's how you get Sidney Crosby leading the Midget AAA league in scoring at 14/15. You don't go "You know what? Nah. Let's just see how he measures up against kids his own age."

Then when someone makes the NHL and is competing at the right level, it's somehow better for their development to take a step back for a period to do just that. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He's the same player today than he was before he left for the WJC...

I'm not saying he didn't get anything from it, again, it's an experience and all these experiences make up who you eventually become.

But to suggest that sending him down to the WJC, would make Kotkaniemi a better player if he dominated is far fetched at best.

Development is hard to put your finger on. There is usually no small defined point in time where you can say that kid grew because of it. It's an experience thing and being exposed to many different challenges along the way that helps you grow. I believe the U20 Worlds is a part of the journey where he gets to internally measure himself against players his own age. It's a different type of challenge for him in this overall development path.

Hard to put your finger on development. I value challenges and the U20 worlds would be a challenge for him. A different type of challenge he is facing right now in the NHL. It might also help the Habs evaluate how good he is and if we should target another potential #1C, L PMD, or goal scoring winger in the next draft.

Lets say he is lights out in this tournament... this might be value to us where we can say yeah, we can move forward with him as our #1C vs 2C. Not saying you can predict the future but if he dominates, doesn't that mean something for us and lets say we get pick #9 in the next draft. Maybe this sways us to take a goal scoring winger or a PMD at LD?

 

[montreal]

it didn't do a damn thing for his development...

tough to really know since he wasn't developed properly, who's to say what impact rushing him at 19 and 20 to the NHL has had on his game.

 

[groovejuice]

How many top NHL players, who were doing fine on their NHL teams, were sent back to play in the tournament? That list is a lot shorter.

That has everything to do with the bottom line and little to do with a rare development opportunity. We know the priority of NHL teams is WJC, right?

 

[417]

I just don't understand how, when kids are growing up and dominating their age group, the conventional wisdom for them is to move them up a league and compete against older kids. That's how you get Sidney Crosby leading the Midget AAA league in scoring at 14/15. You don't go "You know what? Nah. Let's just see how he measures up against kids his own age."

Then when someone makes the NHL and is competing at the right level, it's somehow better for their development to take a step back for a period to do just that. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Because all too often, people think stats aka putting up 1 PPG, is the only way player's develop.

Development is not always an upwards trajectory.

 

[Adam Michaels]

If we didn't already believe he was staying all year, it is almost sealed he won't be going back, his dad was fired from Assät today.

 

[groovejuice]

It wasn't meant to disprove the value of participating in the WJC, of course there's value in it, there's value in participating in any games at that high of a level.

But it's not more valuable then playing in the NHL and it's not a precursor to being a more successful NHL player.

There's no correlation...people just like to make it, when it's convenient.

Jonathan Drouin played in 2 WJC's, 13pts in 13 games...is he a better player today because of it?

Would he be any different of a player today, had he not gone?


And many player's don't...

Tyler Seguin never played at the WJC's...but trust me, if there was an international competition today.

He'd be on Team Canada.

Your arguments are not disproving the value of the tournament at all. Of course players that don't attend can have great careers. It's really not a solid stance you're taking.

Avocados are very healthful. "I'm healthy and never eaten an avocado, therefore their value is questionable."

 

[417]

Development is hard to put your finger on. There is usually no small defined point in time where you can say that kid grew because of it. It's an experience thing and being exposed to many different challenges along the way that helps you grow. I believe the U20 Worlds is a part of the journey where he gets to internally measure himself against players his own age. It's a different type of challenge for him in this overall development path.

Agree...but here you are suggesting he would benefit from being removed from the most challenging league (which he's proving, at least for now, that he can handle) in the world.

So he can be put in an international tournament to "dominate" inferior competition.

I'm not sure I get that logic. it's counter-intuitive.

Hard to put your finger on development. I value challenges and the U20 worlds would be a challenge for him. A different type of challenge he is facing right now in the NHL. It might also help the Habs evaluate how good he is and if we should target another potential #1C, L PMD, or goal scoring winger in the next draft.

So again, what you're saying is you value inferior challenges.

Again, if come December the Habs are completely out of it...sure, send him to the WJC's.

but if come December, the Habs are still in the race and Kotkaniemi is playing well just as he is now.

It would be completely asinine to take him out of that environment and put him in the WJC's...that makes ZERO sense to me.

May as well petition the league to send Carey Price back to WHL so he can find his game again in Tri-City

Lets say he is lights out in this tournament... this might be value to us where we can say yeah, we can move forward with him as our #1C vs 2C. Not saying you can predict the future but if he dominates, doesn't that mean something for us and lets say we get pick #9 in the next draft. Maybe this sways us to take a goal scoring winger or a PMD at LD?

I don't thin dominating the WJC's means much of anything other than you dominated the WJC's...

Casey Middlestat, Filip Zadina, Martin Necas, Kiefer Bellows, Klim Kostin, Jordan Kyrou dominated the WJC's last year.

None of them are dominating whatever respective league they're currently in.

It doesn't mean as much as you think

 

[417]

tough to really know since he wasn't developed properly, who's to say what impact rushing him at 19 and 20 to the NHL has had on his game.

Who knows...but I think that just reinforces my point.

 

[417]

Your arguments are not disproving the value of the tournament at all. Of course players that don't attend can have great careers. It's really not a solid stance you're taking.

Avocados are very healthful. "I'm healthy and never eaten an avocado, therefore their value is questionable."

It's not really up to me to prove what value WJC's have, since that's not my argument....furthermore, I never said they're meaningless.

But I do think they mean less than playing and gaining experience in the NHL.

Put it this way...

If the WJC's were tomorrow...

Would it make sense to send Kotkaniemi down there for 3 weeks vs playing him like they have?

Absolutely not, that would be the opposite of whatever development is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Agree...but here you are suggesting he would benefit from being removed from the most challenging league (which he's proving, at least for now, that he can handle) in the world.

So he can be put in an international tournament to "dominate" inferior competition.

I'm not sure I get that logic. it's counter-intuitive.


So again, what you're saying is you value inferior challenges.

Again, if come December the Habs are completely out of it...sure, send him to the WJC's.

but if come December, the Habs are still in the race and Kotkaniemi is playing well just as he is now.

It would be completely asinine to take him out of that environment and put him in the WJC's...that makes ZERO sense to me.

May as well petition the league to send Carey Price back to WHL so he can find his game again in Tri-City


I don't thin dominating the WJC's means much of anything other than you dominated the WJC's...

Casey Middlestat, Filip Zadina, Martin Necas, Kiefer Bellows, Klim Kostin, Jordan Kyrou dominated the WJC's last year.

None of them are dominating whatever respective league they're currently in.

It doesn't mean as much as you think

A few points.

1) I value giving him different challenges in his development. World U20 tournament where he misses 6 or 7 NHL games is something I would value in providing a different type of challenge for him.

2) I value to some degree what he can do in that tournament. Lets say he looks like Mete did. Plays solid but does not dominate the tournament. What does this tell us? We can't say for sure but some would say we have a #2 center vs a #1C. But what if he does dominate the tournament? It might provide value and what direction we take with our pick if there is no clear BPA by the time we pick. Maybe we have more confidence he can be a #1C vs what we know today by playing him in a #3C role while he learns on the job.

3) I don't value this rebound/pride year. So I don't see any problem at all of losing Kotkaniemi for 6 or 7 games while he gets to represent his county in a different type of challenge vs what he is going through in the NHL.

Experience is everything. I support sending him to the world juniors in more ways than one.

Lets look at Poehling. Don't we have a better idea at what type of center he is after the last world juniors and how he is measured against players his own age? Doesn't this give you some sort of picture on what type of asset you have when you measure them against players their age?

 

[montreal]

It's not really up to me to prove what value WJC's have, since that's not my argument....furthermore, I never said they're meaningless.

But I do think they mean less than playing and gaining experience in the NHL.

well the Habs didn't agree with you since they opted to send Mete there vs playing NHL games. Although they clearly suck at development so that's not really a ringing endorsement.

I agree though, if the Habs are still doing well 5 or so weeks from now he wouldn't and shouldn't be going. But if they start to struggle then it wouldn't hurt to have him go there for 10 days or so.

 

[417]

A few points.

1) I value giving him different challenges in his development. World U20 tournament where he misses 6 or 7 NHL games is something I would value in providing a different type of challenge for him.

I get it...I think it would be irrelevant and potentially detrimental if anything.

2) I value to some degree what he can do in that tournament. Lets say he looks like Mete did. Plays solid but does not dominate the tournament. What does this tell us? We can't say for sure but some would say we have a #2 center vs a #1C. But what if he does dominate the tournament? It might provide value and what direction we take with our pick if there is no clear BPA by the time we pick. Maybe we have more confidence he can be a #1C vs what we know today by playing him in a #3C role while he learns on the job.

I'm not sure I understand the logic of basing next year's pick on how Kotkaniemi performs at the WJC's in December...so i'm going to need you to elaborate on that.

Furthermore, I think you're more likely to draw more conclusions from his games in the NHL, then you will from a tournament playing with teammates he hasn't played with all year.

3) I don't value this rebound/pride year. So I don't see any problem at all of losing Kotkaniemi for 6 or 7 games while he gets to represent his county in a different type of challenge vs what he is going through in the NHL.

Experience is everything. I support sending him to the world juniors in more ways than one.

Apparently not...because the experience he's getting now, doesn't seem as important to you as the experience he'd get playing at the WJC's.

Lets look at Poehling. Don't we have a better idea at what type of center he is after the last world juniors and how he is measured against players his own age? Doesn't this give you some sort of picture on what type of asset you have when you measure them against players their age?

Nope...not one bit.

I won't have an full and complete idea of what type of C Poehling will be until he's played in the NHL a few years...