Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 17

[Skip Bayless]

Read the whole thread. He's literally saying the same thing as we've been saying. He should've gone back to Europe and played in WJCs. Instead idiotic decisions by idiotic management have led us here.

He is 100% right, but KK should have never been drafted #3 in the first place, as much as the habs needed a big C. He was a project that in the best case could've ended up a top 6 player. The type of player you pick outside the top 10.

 

[DAChampion]

He is 100% right, but KK should have never been drafted #3 in the first place, as much as the habs needed a big C. He was a project that in the best case could've ended up a top 6 player. The type of player you pick outside the top 10.

Kotkaniemi was not going to be drafted outside the top ten.

 

[sandviper]

Kotkaniemi was not going to be drafted outside the top ten.

Guaranteed he was going top-5. If we didn’t take him, Arizona 100% was.

 

[willzyix]

I don’t think he’s ruined, but ...

He wasn’t ready as a rookie. Mismanagement on MB’s part.

His usage this season - coaches play the cards they’ve been dealt- has been generally fine. He’s usually matched with a scoring winger and a defensive minded winger. He gets a regular PP shift. That’s some good opportunity to develop. He was gradually getting better until early April. ... fatigue set in and he lost some stability with team injuries.

I disagree with this a little bit. I don't buy that KK wasn't ready for the NHL. He had a respectable rookie season. Not great, nothing special, but he showed that he could hang in the big league.

 

[Mrb1p]

I disagree with this a little bit. I don't buy that KK wasn't ready for the NHL. He had a respectable rookie season. Not great, nothing special, but he showed that he could hang in the big league.

Hanging in the league isnt optimal, unless if you want to feed him a lot of minutes.

Cant do a bit of both.

 

[Andrei79]

I don’t think he’s ruined, but ...

He wasn’t ready as a rookie. Mismanagement on MB’s part.

His usage this season - coaches play the cards they’ve been dealt- has been generally fine. He’s usually matched with a scoring winger and a defensive minded winger. He gets a regular PP shift. That’s some good opportunity to develop. He was gradually getting better until early April. ... fatigue set in and he lost some stability with team injuries.

Agreed. I saw the same thing you did. He was getting there before that stretch of games, even looking better than Suzuki. He had 10 points in 17 games in March then fell off completely down that crazy stretch after the first week of April. Over that 17 game stretch, he had the same production as Suzuki. Only Toffoli, Tatar and Gallagher scored more points. I feel that was much closer to what he can do than what we're seeing since the second week of April. I wouldn't be opposed to him getting some rest like Evans.

 

[Hins77]

Guaranteed he was going top-5. If we didn’t take him, Arizona 100% was.

Arizona arent really impressive about amateur scouting. Select mitchell miller last draft. Finally They decided to cut their link with his suspicious background. Soderstrom, nothing to write to your mother. Barrett hayton. Meh. I really dislike his stats. We are talking about a top 5 pick. Pier olivier joseph.. they trade him. Strome instead of marner.perlini at 12. Anyway. Their prospect pool isnt inpressive imo. KK was a top 15 on most team imo. Just cant believe a discussion about an euro scout who watching KK and a usa scout about tkachuk. Finally, the euro scout won the discussion. Can’t believe that. Sonebody fail his homeworks. The fact « 1 year younger » been on timmins lips everytime he talked about KK. He have to forget this fact and select the better player at the moment. He knows nothing about progression curve. Take the one who is already better

 

[salbutera]

Kotkaniemi was not going to be drafted outside the top ten.

Still doesn’t mean he should’ve been drafted at 3.

When all’s said and done I think the 2018 draft will be very similar in many ways to 2012. There will be very little separation between KK, BT, Hughes.

Recall 2003 draft who is the top-5 today vs 10-years ago?

I suspect KK will have a longer NHL career than BT, Hughes, Zadina et al..

 

[Mrb1p]

Arizona arent really impressive about amateur scouting. Select mitchell miller last draft. Finally They decided to cut their link with his suspicious background. Soderstrom, nothing to write to your mother. Barrett hayton. Meh. I really dislike his stats. We are talking about a top 5 pick. Pier olivier joseph.. they trade him. Strome instead of marner.perlini at 12. Anyway. Their prospect pool isnt inpressive imo. KK was a top 15 on most team imo. Just cant believe a discussion about an euro scout who watching KK and a usa scout about tkachuk. Finally, the euro scout won the discussion. Can’t believe that. Sonebody fail his homeworks. The fact « 1 year younger » been on timmins lips everytime he talked about KK. He have to forget this fact and select the better player at the moment. He knows nothing about progression curve. Take the one who is already better

Kotkaniemi being a top 15 prospect is revisionist at best.

Montreal picked him 3rd
Arizona had him as the best C in the draft and picked hayton 5th
Tim Burke said he had him at 3
Bobs ranking had him at 4 (10 Pro scouts polled.)
Thats a minimum of 15 teams that had him in their top 4 that we know of.

It was
Dahlin
Svech
Kk/Tkachuk
Zadina
Hughes/Dobson/Boqvist
Kfavtsov/Wahlstrom


Plus guys like Chainey had him at 3

 

[DAChampion]

What contributes to the irritation about many posters writing off Kotkaniemi (and sometimes Romanov) at age 20 is that we also had many posters, likely many of the same posters, writing that Jonathan Drouin was only 26 and that he needs more time to hit his prime.

 

[DAChampion]

Hanging in the league isnt optimal, unless if you want to feed him a lot of minutes.

Cant do a bit of both.

This organization has consistently mishandled prospects: Leblanc, McCarron, Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, De La Rose, Mete, etc, such a gong show.

I appreciate that they're doing better with Suzuki, Poehling, Brook, Romanov, and Caulfield, but they should have done that earlier.

 

[Mrb1p]

This organization has consistently mishandled prospects: Leblanc, McCarron, Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, De La Rose, Mete, etc, such a gong show.

I appreciate that they're doing better with Suzuki, Poehling, Brook, Romanov, and Caulfield, but they should have done that earlier.

Yes, and the blame is always deflected to drafting. It sucks, because its so easy to see.

 

[Ozmodiar]

What contributes to the irritation about many posters writing off Kotkaniemi (and sometimes Romanov) at age 20 is that we also had many posters, likely many of the same posters, writing that Jonathan Drouin was only 26 and that he needs more time to hit his prime.

If this is true, then !

 

[Wats]

Recall, the org (at the same decision point) had no issue with sending Suzuki back to juniors for another season to develop further...

Suzuki was just acquired at 19 and didn't really have a chance to have much of a showing with Montreal. He really took his game another level in his final year in junior. Something Habs didn't give Mete for example.

Caufield is a college player who didn't have a camp or anything with Montreal. He also broke out this year at 19 as a real top prospect. They literally signed him and only gave him 2 games in AHL likely due to cap issues. They tried to do the same thing with Peohling last year but he luckily wasn't as good as other 4th line options. Now suddenly he's showing some offensive promise in AHL.

I don't even understand why people defend the organization so much. They don't have any track record of actually developing well. It's probably the worst in the division. How do you defend anything they do? They do the same thing with every hyped junior aged prospect that shows promise and suddenly their growth gets stumped. Yet somehow it's always a coincidence and the player sucks.

 

[sandviper]

Arizona arent really impressive about amateur scouting. Select mitchell miller last draft. Finally They decided to cut their link with his suspicious background. Soderstrom, nothing to write to your mother. Barrett hayton. Meh. I really dislike his stats. We are talking about a top 5 pick. Pier olivier joseph.. they trade him. Strome instead of marner.perlini at 12. Anyway. Their prospect pool isnt inpressive imo. KK was a top 15 on most team imo. Just cant believe a discussion about an euro scout who watching KK and a usa scout about tkachuk. Finally, the euro scout won the discussion. Can’t believe that. Sonebody fail his homeworks. The fact « 1 year younger » been on timmins lips everytime he talked about KK. He have to forget this fact and select the better player at the moment. He knows nothing about progression curve. Take the one who is already better

I won't disagree Arizona makes questionable decisions and their scouting leaves something to be desired. People talk about KK being a reach, but Hayton was a real reach.

Really, the gist of my comment wasn't about KK being a top-5 talent, but more that he was going top-5. It was either going to be Montreal or Arizona taking him. Of course, no way to know for sure about Arizona but you got to think that Hayton who was ranked similarly in the mid-teens ended up going 5OVA.

 

[Hins77]

I won't disagree Arizona makes questionable decisions and their scouting leaves something to be desired. People talk about KK being a reach, but Hayton was a real reach.

Really, the gist of my comment wasn't about KK being a top-5 talent, but more that he was going top-5. It was either going to be Montreal or Arizona taking him. Of course, no way to know for sure about Arizona but you got to think that Hayton who was ranked similarly in the mid-teens ended up going 5OVA.

Yep. Each year arizona suprised me with their selections. They are always a doing reach. Soderstrom. Nobody can say he was suppose to be draft at his position. Same for Hayton. Even Clay Keller back in the days. I remeber they were kind of surprising go select him that early. Not a bad pick, but he was a reach at the moment

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

In retrospect we absolutely should have let KK play a couple years elsewhere. But he did earn it playing his way onto the team in preseason, and ended up having a really nice 18 year old season.

The bigger issue with him is simply his lack of elite traits. You look at Suzuki (IQ) and Caufield, (puck skills) both those guys possess some elite qualities. KK just doesn’t have anything he can hang his hat on.

 

[Wats]

Maybe in hindsight it's a good thing Habs didn't end up with Cole Perfetti. Really doubt they develop him and Guhle may luck out into getting to play in junior/AHL couple years before being rushed.

 

[417]

This organization has consistently mishandled prospects: Leblanc, McCarron, Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, De La Rose, Mete, etc, such a gong show.

I appreciate that they're doing better with Suzuki, Poehling, Brook, Romanov, and Caulfield, but they should have done that earlier.

This assumes that every prospect is destined to meet his potential.

Maybe McCarron, LeBlanc, Mete, Galchenyuk, etc just are what they are and no amount of development (recognizing there were definite mistakes made along the way) would have drastically altered the path they're all currently on and have been.

 

[Andrei79]

This assumes that every prospect is destined to meet his potential.

Maybe McCarron, LeBlanc, Mete, Galchenyuk, etc just are what they are and no amount of development (recognizing there were definite mistakes made along the way) would have drastically altered the path they're all currently on and have been.

I'm always impressed how some people can look at the overwhelming evidence on a subject and just go: "well, f*** all of that".

Explain to me how Mete peaked, then regressed at 19.

Fourth round pick. Makes incredible strides his D+1 year. Manages to hold a spot alongside Weber. But somehow he wouldn't have benefited (greatly) from spending more time refining parts of his game. This same guy who was apparently told he needed to work on -wait for this- his physical game to stay in the league.

And you think these things only had non-significant impacts ? Ok then.

 

[BLONG7]

He is 100% right, but KK should have never been drafted #3 in the first place, as much as the habs needed a big C. He was a project that in the best case could've ended up a top 6 player. The type of player you pick outside the top 10.

The reason everyone says, you draft the BPA is exactly correct.........no one in their right mind drafts based on need, especially in the top 5-10 picks.....No one.................except MB the clown. TV guys, scouts, everyone knows, even guys on HF know, you don't draft a guy by need......so simple.

 

[Mrb1p]

This assumes that every prospect is destined to meet his potential.

Maybe McCarron, LeBlanc, Mete, Galchenyuk, etc just are what they are and no amount of development (recognizing there were definite mistakes made along the way) would have drastically altered the path they're all currently on and have been.

And you assume that every prospect isn't.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and right now the Habs are all the way up in no mans land.

 

[tooji]

I’m not worried about KK because he is not yet physically mature, which indicates to me that there is still a lot of room for growth in his game as he grows into his body.

A lot of the things people say about KK today (bambi, etc) were the things people said about Mark Scheifele. Not saying he will be that good, but a single off season can make a huge difference at his age developmentally.

 

[417]

I'm always impressed how some people can look at the overwhelming evidence on a subject and just go: "well, f*** all of that".

Same...

Explain to me how Mete peaked, then regressed at 19.

Fourth round pick. Makes incredible strides his D+1 year. Manages to hold a spot alongside Weber. But somehow he wouldn't have benefited (greatly) from spending more time refining parts of his game. This same guy who was apparently told he needed to work on -wait for this- his physical game to stay in the league.

Incredible strides?

I mean, that's your opinion.

He locked down a spot alongside Weber mostly because the Habs needed that "type" of player. So perhaps we disagree on Mete and the strides he made.

Personally, I don't see a player who has progressed much, if at all from his draft year. He's the same player with the same strengths/weaknesses in his game today as when they drafted him.

If that doesn't scream "peaked"...I don't know what to tell ya.

And you think these things only had non-significant impacts ? Ok then.

Not sure what you're talking about here...either way.

 

[417]

And you assume that every prospect isn't.

How did you reach this conclusion? Because unlike the poster who I just quoted, I made no such assumption

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and right now the Habs are all the way up in no mans land.

I would agree the truth is somewhere in the middle. I was arguing the notion that the Habs blew the development of guys like McCarron, De la Rose or Leblanc, etc.

You can make an argument for some players, not those IMO.

I don't really believe Jacob De la Rose would be a different player today had he been drafted by say....the Tampa Bay Lightning.

He is what he is...sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss.