Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[417]

The thing that bothers me the most about Kotkaniemi in the NHL at 18 was he was drafted as a long term prospect at center and we changed our minds cause we needed him as our 3C... he won the job over Pleky, Peca, DLR. Whip Dee Doo! And he never dominated a development league prior to the NHL.

Said this last year and got jumped for it too. Just cause he "don't look out of place" it don't mean it was the right move. I support development management but it's different for each player IMO. In Kotkaniemi's case, it was very premature management.

Kotkaniemi was VERY good as an 18yr old last year

This year, he's struggled.

The reason for that disparity seems obvious to me.

Last year he had a role because of how thin this team was down the middle.

This year, he's basically just filling out a jersey because his coach is leaning on Danault, Domi and Thompson more then he is Kotkaniemi.

When that dynamic changes, I expect the results will follow with the player.

 

[Wats]

He also stayed in junior for his D+1 and +2 seasons, and half a season in the AHL due to the lockout.

By the time he made it to the NHL he had 2.5 seasons of pure development under his belt to Kotka’s 0. At Kotka’s current age, Gallagher was still playing junior hockey.

A year and a half into Kotka’s career, I have a hard time believing there’s still people that feel having him in the NHL at 18 was in his best interest.

The idea of fast tracking should be that they reach their potential sooner vs not reach NHL sooner. I highly doubt Gallagher would be as good as he was as fast had he been fast tracked to NHL at 18/19.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Kotkaniemi was VERY good as an 18yr old last year

This year, he's struggled.

The reason for that disparity seems obvious to me.

Last year he had a role because of how thin this team was down the middle.

This year, he's basically just filling out a jersey because his coach is leaning on Danault, Domi and Thompson more then he is Kotkaniemi.

When that dynamic changes, I expect the results will follow with the player.

We had this conversation last year remember? I do think he had a decent season for a 18 year old. I just don't like how we bumped him forward in the development process cause we needed him at center. You can't tell me he wins the 3C job if we had better center depth last year. It was premature! Are we going to ruin him? NO, cause we will see who he really is in the 21-23 age range regardless of his path IMO. It's just messing with his confidence and he's working on "assignments' more than working on his offensive potential. I rather it the other way around. At least Suzuki and Poehling got a chance to be impact players in their development paths.

Depends on his character and hunger to improve. I just hope that he doesn't loose his confidence too much.

 

[417]

We had this conversation last year remember?

Yes, indeed.

I do think he had a decent season for a 18 year old. I just don't like how we bumped him forward in the development process cause we needed him at center. You can't tell me he wins the 3C job if we had better center depth last year. It was premature! Are we going to ruin him? NO, cause we will see who he really is in the 21-23 age range regardless of his path IMO. It's just messing with his confidence and he's working on "assignments' more than working on his offensive potential.

I don't think they necessarily bumped him forward in his development process...he came to camp and was clearly better then everyone he was going up against. He earned his spot and for about 60 games, he was thriving and so was the team.

Then the GM acquired Thompson, no doubt at CJ's request...and his role has dwindled ever since and the team hasn't looked quite the same as a result IMO.

So sure, maybe they rushed the process last year or he earned it...it's probably a bit of both.

But then they stopped his progress right in his tracks because the coach is risk averse.

That's more of the issue IMO.

Depends on his character and hunger to improve. I just hope that he doesn't loose his confidence too much.

Well the coaching staff has surely done everything in their power to assure that he does lose his confidence.

But again, i'm not concerned with the "now" for Kotkaniemi.

 

[417]

The idea of fast tracking should be that they reach their potential sooner vs not reach NHL sooner. I highly doubt Gallagher would be as good as he was as fast had he been fast tracked to NHL at 18/19.

You mean, had he graduated to the NHL as a 5th round pick following his draft year?

How unlikely that scenario would have been, what do you base the bolded conclusion on?

Brendan Gallagher is about the most predictable player there is, he is who he is and has always been this kind of player.

IMO, you could have had Gallagher in the NHL at 18yrs old, and he'd still be who he is today because well...that's just who he is as a player.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, indeed.


I don't think they necessarily bumped him forward in his development process...he came to camp and was clearly better then everyone he was going up against. He earned his spot and for about 60 games, he was thriving and so was the team.

Then the GM acquired Thompson, no doubt at CJ's request...and his role has dwindled ever since and the team hasn't looked quite the same as a result IMO.

So sure, maybe they rushed the process last year or he earned it...it's probably a bit of both.

But then they stopped his progress right in his tracks because the coach is risk averse.

That's more of the issue IMO.


Well the coaching staff has surely done everything in their power to assure that he does lose his confidence.

But again, i'm not concerned with the "now" for Kotkaniemi.

I'm not crazy concerned either but we will see how it turns out. We won't know anything until he is in that 21-23 age range. Until then, he is bambi on ice with skills and IQ. Hopefully the kid can handle the Hero or Zero approach our fans/media does with everything we have.

 

[The Great Weal]

Seriously, when will the organization learn and let these kids develop a bit before throwing them to NHL. I can almost guarantee Caufeild is going to see NHL time this year and the potential for being crushed is real.

That could have happened to literally anybody. Heck something similar happened to Petterson last year...

 

[Habs Halifax]

That could have happened to literally anybody. Heck something similar happened to Petterson last year...

This is true but Petterson dominated the SHL at 18. He earned it and he wasn't falling down like Bambi all throughout the season. Kotkaniemi clearly lacks lower body strength and it's a concern. There is no way to spin that, ignore it, or try to compare his situation to others in a attempt to justify how we managed him.

He needs to be managed individually. However, it's too late now, we already bumped him forward in the development path. Now we have to deal with it as is today

 

[The Great Weal]

This is true but Petterson dominated the SHL at 18. He earned it and he wasn't falling down like Bambi all throughout the season. Kotkaniemi clearly lacks lower body strength and it's a concern. There is no way to spin that, ignore it, or try to compare his situation to others.

He needs to be managed individually. However, it's too late now, we already bumped him forward in the development path. Now we have to deal with it as is today

Pettersson might have been the scrawniest kid I have seen in the NHL. The difference is that he is a MUCH better skater than Kotkaniemi.

I'm not even disagreeing with Kotkaniemi not being physically ready for the NHL, but to use last night as evidence as to why he isnt ready is laughable

 

[Wats]

It don't mean anything to me cause I don't support development management being the same approach with each player. Each case needs to be managed individually. I don't get some Habs fans thinking it needs to be a equal straight line approach with every prospect.

Guess we need better people figuring out what approach to use on individual players.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pettersson might have been the scrawniest kid I have seen in the NHL. The difference is that he is a MUCH better skater than Kotkaniemi.

I'm not even disagreeing with Kotkaniemi not being physically ready for the NHL, but to use last night as evidence as to why he isnt ready is laughable

A few comments...

- Petterson was not falling down like Bambi.

- I agree with you that this one hit is circumstantial. But hey, Habs fans going to do what they do and use zoomed in pictures where they are influence by small sample sizes. Last year he was our golden boy and for some reason we expected him to jump forward substantially this year. Now the narrative is different this year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Guess we need better people figuring out what approach to use on individual players.

It appears so. I can't argue that at all... the trends are there in front of our face and it's not trends for one month sample size either.

 

[The Great Weal]

A few comments...

- Petterson was not falling down like Bambi.
- I agree with you that this one hit is circumstantial. But hey, Habs fans going to do what they do and use zoomed in pictures where they are influence by small sample sizes.

Pettersson was crazy weak. Like I said, his skating is what kept him in the league last year. If he skated like Kotkaniemi he wouldnt be in the NHL.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pettersson was crazy weak. Like I said, his skating is what kept him in the league last year. If he skated like Kotkaniemi he wouldnt be in the NHL.

Being weak but keeping puck possession and not falling down are two different things.

I'm a firm believer that development needs to be managed individually. In Kotkaniemi's situation, I don't like it.

 

[The Great Weal]

Being weak but keeping puck possession and not falling down are two different things.

Skating is a huge part of that

 

[Habs Halifax]

Skating is a huge part of that

Agreed. What are we arguing or talking about? I'm confused now?

 

[417]

This is true but Petterson dominated the SHL at 18. He earned it and he wasn't falling down like Bambi all throughout the season. Kotkaniemi clearly lacks lower body strength and it's a concern. There is no way to spin that, ignore it, or try to compare his situation to others in a attempt to justify how we managed him.

He needs to be managed individually. However, it's too late now, we already bumped him forward in the development path. Now we have to deal with it as is today

Kotkaniemi would be "bambi" no matter where he played.

The issue isn't him, its fans/media expectations.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Kotkaniemi would be "bambi" no matter where he played.

The issue isn't him, its fans/media expectations.

Not necessarily. The NHL is less time and space and the most physical league. It's a measure of how he can gradually gain confidence where it gives him motivation and hunger to get better. He went from Junior High to Collage and Skipped High school. Was he a genius in Junior High?

I don't recall pre-draft talk where he was falling down like Bambi in the Liiga league

 

[417]

Not necessarily. The NHL is less time and space and the most physical league.

All the more reason for him to get accustomed to it now.

Patience

 

[Andrei79]

You mean, had he graduated to the NHL as a 5th round pick following his draft year?

How unlikely that scenario would have been, what do you base the bolded conclusion on?

Brendan Gallagher is about the most predictable player there is, he is who he is and has always been this kind of player.

IMO, you could have had Gallagher in the NHL at 18yrs old, and he'd still be who he is today because well...that's just who he is as a player.

What's the cut off on the age in which he wouldn't have ? 17 ? 16 ? Is there any age ? Or would nothing have had any impact ?

 

[The Great Weal]

Agreed. What are we arguing or talking about? I'm confused now?

I don't know why you think Pettersson wasn't Bambi.

Just look at he Canucks board:
"Does Bambi on skates explain it? Beautiful majestic animal that is still has a bit of a shaky leg.

Maybe that's overdoing it but you can tell he's recently gone through a growth spurt and is getting used to his body.

I would sum it up to him being an 18 year old kid that is 6'2 165 (that honestly may be an exagerration!) that needs to grow into his body.

I certainly wouldn't say out of sorts because he was still one of it not the most skilled guy on the ice but I wouldn't be shocked if MacEwan's arms are thicker than Pettersson's legs!"

'Pettersson is confirmed bambi. Just kinda leaning forward and semi stumbling all the time. But something happens when he gets close to the net, he is just silky."

"Agree that Pettersson is a going to need time. Has outstanding skill but right now is a Bambi who will need time to mature. "

"If he gets put back in next game I'm done watching this team. That's a ****ign concussion. Bambi legs, I mean, if they don't sit him they're just ****ing ******ed."

"Pettersson - fun to watch even when he doesn't get a point. Like Bambi, at times, and you wonder how good he will be when he truly gets his legs under him."

"Pettersson needs to get stronger before he gets bigger, especially that lower body. Seen him a few times just Bambi it trying to dangle."

"Pettersson - all world play on the assist but stumbled a fair bit and screwed up chances. Still like a Bambi out there finding his legs. Gets a little more maturity and he will be lights out."

 

[Habs Halifax]

All the more reason for him to get accustomed to it now.

Patience

I'm with you on the Patience approach. If I was GM, he probably is not playing NHL today. Regardless, I'm not going to get all crazy upset about it that he is in the NHL. It's just more risk than I would like.

I still believe he can be a #1C some day and we won't know that for a few years yet.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't know why you think Pettersson wasn't Bambi.

Just look at he Canucks board:
"Does Bambi on skates explain it? Beautiful majestic animal that is still has a bit of a shaky leg.

Maybe that's overdoing it but you can tell he's recently gone through a growth spurt and is getting used to his body.

I would sum it up to him being an 18 year old kid that is 6'2 165 (that honestly may be an exagerration!) that needs to grow into his body.

I certainly wouldn't say out of sorts because he was still one of it not the most skilled guy on the ice but I wouldn't be shocked if MacEwan's arms are thicker than Pettersson's legs!"

'Pettersson is confirmed bambi. Just kinda leaning forward and semi stumbling all the time. But something happens when he gets close to the net, he is just silky."

"Agree that Pettersson is a going to need time. Has outstanding skill but right now is a Bambi who will need time to mature. "

"If he gets put back in next game I'm done watching this team. That's a ****ign concussion. Bambi legs, I mean, if they don't sit him they're just ****ing ******ed."

"Pettersson - fun to watch even when he doesn't get a point. Like Bambi, at times, and you wonder how good he will be when he truly gets his legs under him."

"Pettersson needs to get stronger before he gets bigger, especially that lower body. Seen him a few times just Bambi it trying to dangle."

"Pettersson - all world play on the assist but stumbled a fair bit and screwed up chances. Still like a Bambi out there finding his legs. Gets a little more maturity and he will be lights out."

Suzuki needs to get stronger too but he's not falling down all the time. Each case should be managed individually

 

[The Great Weal]

Suzuki needs to get stronger too but he's not falling down all the time. Each case should be managed individually

Suzuki wasn't like 165lbs, he came into camp this year at around 200lbs IIRC

 

[417]

What's the cut off on the age in which he wouldn't have ? 17 ? 16 ? Is there any age ? Or would nothing have had any impact ?

I don't know...we could take these hypotheticals anywhere I suppose lol