Prospect Info: Jesperi Kotkaniemi (1st round pick, 3OA 2018 - signed ELC) - Post-development camp edition

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LaP

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You could potentially take McDavids four year peak and win cups with that, career length doesn't have any bearings on the quality of a player in the present.

No but i'm mostly talking about building a team and acquiring a player in a trade (here acquiring ROR in a trade and thinking you got a Bergeron like player). It's always very very very dangerous to acquire a players past his mid 20ies based on career years instead of what the player was over his whole career so far.

If the guy is already in your team because you drafted him then fine you take what he will give to you. If you're looking for a very short term fix because you are at the end of a window then fine.

But i've seen many many GMs burn themselves by acquiring and paying based on career years of a player already in his prime. It's not rare at all that 2 years after the acquisition the player is back to what he has been his whole career. The reality for now is Bergeron had a better career than ROR. I don't even know why it's a discussion to be honest. It puzzles me.
 

Mrb1p

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No but i'm mostly talking about building a team and acquiring a player in a trade (here acquiring ROR in a trade and thinking you got a Bergeron like player). It's always very very very dangerous to acquire a players past his mid 20ies based on career years instead of what the player was over his whole career so far.

If the guy is already in your team because you drafted him then fine you take what he will give to you. If you're looking for a very short term fix because you are at the end of a window then fine.

But i've seen many many GMs burn themselves by acquiring and paying based on career years of a player already in his prime. It's not rare at all that 2 years after the acquisition the player is back to what he has been his whole career. The reality for now is Bergeron had a better career than ROR. I don't even know why it's a discussion to be honest.
The conversation is based around "What is a 1C", what you just brought in has no link whatsoever, you're talking about acquiring players and what ever.
 

DramaticGloveSave

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I owe you a retraction. I mixed yours and DGS's arguments. You indeed never implied that the top C's of the 31 teams were the 31 1C's, you only stated that there were 31 1Cs.

I would still like to see how you perform this ranking. What sort of things do 1Cs do that 2Cs and lesser players don't?
I never said the top Cs on the 31 teams are the best 31 Cs, I just stated the fact that technically speaking the Cs with the most ice time on each of the 31 teams are the guys playing the 1c position leaguewide.
 
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DAChampion

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I noticed Drouin missing, and no other NHL forward replacing him. Does this mean you traded him back to TB for Sergachev or for some other elite defenceman?

It's almost as though some of us forget that Drouin is even on the team.
 

NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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Over a 15 to 20 years career it kind of is.

There's always a tradeoff between sample size and data relevancy. Sure, a 10 year average is a lot of data, but 10 years ago Alex Kovalev was an 84 point player. League scoring went from extreme highs, to extreme lows, and back again, and the difference has made and broken careers. You need to pick enough data so that your result isn't garbage, with the data still being relevant to what's going to happen next. A lot of things converge to be fairly rock solid over a 4 year period. Shooting percentage, for example is known to stabilize after about 300 shots, or 1-2 years.

I think it boils down to what you think a first line center should be. For me it's a very important position (the most important in a team) and you should build your team around it. To build your team around one he must ideally be a guy with a long career. Winning teams almost always have a legitimate first line center who had a great career.

Maybe ROR did as good as Bergeron in the last 4 years. But Bergeron is pretty much past his prime. If you look at both career so far there's absolutely no doubt and there should not be any discussion that Bergeron had a significantly better career. Now ROR is 27 only and maybe he could be that guy in the next 5 years. But he has not proven so far that he can be a first line center of a contending team imo (unless this team has a very good goalie and a very good defense à la Nashville of course).

The impact he had with his teams so far has not been the one you expect from a legitimate 1st line center imo.

Ryan didn't do as well as Patrice, he just produced as many points. If Patrice is past his prime, he certainly isn't playing like it.
 

LaP

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The conversation is based around "What is a 1C", what you just brought in has no link whatsoever, you're talking about acquiring players and what ever.

I first replied to a NotProkofievian who kind of implied that because ROR did near as good as Bergeron in his last 4 years he then was a legitimate first line center (https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148352449/). Now i'm not sure where he wanted to go with that cause in the same post he said Bergeron was a significantly better player (which i missed initially to be honest).

I still don't understand what a comparison between the last 4 years of a player in his prime versus the last 4 years of a player past his prime has anything to do with being a first line center because clearly over their whole career Bergeron did significantly better than ROR (on average 9.5 more points over 82 games). I'll just put this in i don't have a clue and move on.
 

Mrb1p

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I first replied to a NotProkofievian who kind of implied that because ROR did near as good as Bergeron in his last 4 years he then was a legitimate first line center (https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148352449/). Now i'm not sure where he wanted to go with that cause in the same post he said Bergeron was a significantly better player (which i missed initially to be honest).

I still don't understand what a comparison between the last 4 years of a player in his prime versus the last 4 years of a player past his prime has anything to do with being a first line center because clearly over their whole career Bergeron did significantly better than ROR (on average 9.5 more points over 82 games). I'll just put this in i don't have a clue and move on.
Thats not exactly what NP said though, he made a parallel between their production because initially, we tried setting up a rough parameter of "60/65 points" for a 1C.
 

DAChampion

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I have a different argument for weighting powerplay production less: volatility. I haven't done the regression but it seems that season-to-season variance in even strength production is much more stable than power play production. For one, even strength is just the default state of play: most of the game is played in this situation. Teams don't get even amounts of power play time (by extension neither do they have even strength time, but the relative difference in samples is much smaller), and individual power play production rates can fluctuate by integer multiples. There's value in repeatability.



I'm a bit of a heretic when it comes to faceoffs. They've been said to not be important because their regression coefficient is small when regressed against goals. But the same can be said for just about everything. Even shots and goals have a 10:1 relationship which is starting to get into the ''rare event'' regime.

What hasn't been mentioned in the hockey analytics literature, that I've seen, is that logistic regression is biased in the rare-event regime. Linear regression is not. One way that researchers have used to get around this bias is ''dependent variable selection.'' Essentially, eliminating some zeros so that the 1's and 0's in your dependent variable are in roughly even proportion (thus eliminating bias). This is essentially equivalent to reversing the conditioning on your probability: instead of asking what's the probability that you'll score a goal given that you won a faceoff, we ask given that we've scored a goal, what's the probability that we just won a faceoff. We can all name times off the top of our head where our team lost a defensive zone faceoff and it resulted in a goal against, or a big power play goal scored to send things to overtime.

That's essentially where the overemphasis on faceoffs comes from. The small regression coefficient just says that trying to increase goals scored on a team level by maximizing faceoff wins is an inefficient strategy. It doesn't mean they're not important though.



I haven't really thought of penalty killing yet. It's my hunch that I don't really want my top line players killing penalties.

To me, a #1C means that when he's on the ice, which should be a lot, your team has to score a lot. That separates the pretenders from the contenders fairly well. What separates them even better is scoring chances. If, when your #1C is on the ice, your team is generated 35 scoring chances per hour, your center's name is Matthews, or Crosby, or McDavid. I specifically value centers who are directly responsible for those scoring chances. Your center will often occupy the highest danger ice on an even strength shift, and therefore, having a pass only guy there seems stupid. The best centers in the game can all put the puck in the net, and try to do so regularly.

To tie this all into Kotkaniemi, Jesperi shoot a lot. About 3 shots per game, about 9 shots per hour, in a pro league.

Faceoffs are likely important because they're rare, abd abd because the difference in skill between players is small.

Faceoffs are not like goal scoring -- all players have nearly identical skill levels. There are no players who can exceed 90% in the faceoff circle. They almost all get between 48 and 52%. That works our to a difference in possession of maybe 10 seconds a game. That's nice, but it'd dwarfed in importance by the other 20 minutes on the ice where the faceoff stat affects nothing. Even if those 10 seconds did matter, they would already show up in the other stats like shot count. It would not be fair to double count them.

It is great that Kotkaniemi is a shooter .A good centre needs to score.
 

LaP

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Thats not exactly what NP said though, he made a parallel between their production because initially, we tried setting up a rough parameter of "60/65 points" for a 1C.

That's silly. You pretty much can't have a rough parameter for anything. In the end what you are looking for in a first line center is impact. It's the same with the number 1 dman. When Subban came here he had an immediate impact. The team sucked and then it did not suck anymore. Yeah Price/Halak and Patch/Cammalleri played a important role too but the impact Subban had with the team was really clear day 1 when he came here with only 2 games to go before the season ends and then went on to be one of our 3 best dmen in the playoffs in a run where a team that should have been out after the first round reached the semis.

I just don't see it with ROR so far. Maybe he'll prove me wrong in Stl but i just don't see it. For me it's very hard for a forward to have a significant impact when producing between 55 and 60 points. With this kind of production you can play a role but you can hardly be TEH guy the team rely on to win games. And personally i like my first line center to be the guy driving offense not the guy playing a role.

Ultimately i agree with the guy who said you need top ~20 players to win. I think it's BaseballCoach who said that. If you got a top 5 dman and a top 5 goalie then your first line center can be top ~30 and it might do the job. But ultimately you must have solid top ~20 guys to win (ideally around 3 of them). There's no perfect formula to win a cup outside of you got to have some skilled guys dominating at their position.

But anyway it's off topic and i hope Kot will be a solid 60+ points producer.
 
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NotProkofievian

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Faceoffs are likely important because they're rare, abd abd because the difference in skill between players is small.

Faceoffs are not like goal scoring -- all players have nearly identical skill levels. There are no players who can exceed 90% in the faceoff circle. They almost all get between 48 and 52%. That works our to a difference in possession of maybe 10 seconds a game. That's nice, but it'd dwarfed in importance by the other 20 minutes on the ice where the faceoff stat affects nothing. Even if those 10 seconds did matter, they would already show up in the other stats like shot count. It would not be fair to double count them.

This is a really good point, and one that I couldn't find space for in my previous point. Let's say that faceoffs actually had a decent regression coefficient with respect to goals. Go on then: win 500 more faceoffs per year. I dare you. There's nobody who completely and utterly dominates the competition, much less 4 guys, much less 4 guys who are all on the same team. Even if it were an efficient strategy to increase goals, it wouldn't be an effective one: you can't maximize faceoff wins, really. The most you can do is ice your best faceoff guy for in-zone draws.

It is great that Kotkaniemi is a shooter .A good centre needs to score.

I felt like this was the biggest thing holding Tomas Plekanec back from being a 1C back when he was actually a good player. He had his two moves: his little push/flip then half slap shot, and ye olde wrap around. If he were a more serious scoring threat he'd have been quite a player.
 
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Mrb1p

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That's silly. You pretty much can't have a rough parameter for anything. In the end what you are looking for in a first line center is impact. It's the same with the number 1 dman. When Subban came here he had an immediate impact. The team sucked and then it did not suck anymore. Yeah Price/Halak and Patch/Cammalleri played a important role too but the impact Subban had with the team was really clear day 1 when he came here with only 2 games to go before the season ends and then went on to be one of our 3 best dmen in the playoffs in a run where a team that should have been out after the first round reached the semis.

I just don't see it with ROR so far. Maybe he'll prove me wrong in Stl but i just don't see it. For me it's very hard for a forward to have a significant impact when producing between 55 and 60 points. With this kind of production you can play a role but you can hardly be TEH guy the team rely on to win games. And personally i like my first line center to be the guy driving offense not the guy playing a role.

But anyway it's off topic and i hope Kot will be a solid 60+ points producer.
That's exactly what NP tried to say...
 

DAChampion

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That's silly. You pretty much can't have a rough parameter for anything. In the end what you are looking for in a first line center is impact. It's the same with the number 1 dman. When Subban came here he had an immediate impact. The team sucked and then it did not suck anymore. Yeah Price/Halak and Patch/Cammalleri played a important role too but the impact Subban had with the team was really clear day 1 when he came here with only 2 games to go before the season ends and then went on to be one of our 3 best dmen in the playoffs in a run where a team that should have been out after the first round reached the semis.

I just don't see it with ROR so far. Maybe he'll prove me wrong in Stl but i just don't see it. For me it's very hard for a forward to have a significant impact when producing between 55 and 60 points. With this kind of production you can play a role but you can hardly be TEH guy the team rely on to win games. And personally i like my first line center to be the guy driving offense not the guy playing a role.

Ultimately i agree with the guy who said you need top ~20 players to win. I think it's BaseballCoach who said that. If you got a top 5 dman and a top 5 goalie then your first line center can be top ~30 and it might do the job. But ultimately you must have solid top ~20 guys to win (ideally around 3 of them). There's no perfect formula to win a cup outside of you got to have some skilled guys dominating at their position.

But anyway it's off topic and i hope Kot will be a solid 60+ points producer.

One thing that changes from year to year (or maybe every 3-5 years) is the "formula" to win a Stanley Cup, which I think informs us that there is no formula. It used to be that size won, that defense won, that depth won, and then it was first line centers. Posters here often say that you can't win a Cup with a goalie as your best player on the basis that it has not happened before. The truth is, there is no unique formula, whatever you can do to ice a great team.

We, on the Habs forum, obsess over the need for a top centre due to the fact that the Habs have lacked one for a long time. But during that period the Habs have had Markov, Sourray, Hamrlik, and Subban. Now they have ... the aging Weber. If the Habs find themselves with some great centers in a few years, but playing with 37 year-old Weber on the top pair, we'll be reading no shortage of posts that "great teams need a great no. 1 dman". Though this period, the Habs have mostly had good goaltending, good defense, and good depth. It's why we talk about those less. But every ingredient is important.
 

Mrb1p

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One thing that changes from year to year (or maybe every 3-5 years) is the "formula" to win a Stanley Cup, which I think informs us that there is no formula. It used to be that size won, that defense won, that depth won, and then it was first line centers. Posters here often say that you can't win a Cup with a goalie as your best player on the basis that it has not happened before. The truth is, there is no unique formula, whatever you can do to ice a great team.

We, on the Habs forum, obsess over the need for a top centre due to the fact that the Habs have lacked one for a long time. But during that period the Habs have had Markov, Sourray, Hamrlik, and Subban. Now they have ... the aging Weber. If the Habs find themselves with some great centers in a few years, but playing with 37 year-old Weber on the top pair, we'll be reading no shortage of posts that "great teams need a great no. 1 dman". Though this period, the Habs have mostly had good goaltending, good defense, and good depth. It's why we talk about those less. But every ingredient is important.
Great teams have great players on them, that's the only formula. Also, Patrick Roy's 86 and 93 teams were all him, mostly, so the goaltending thing happened too.

And I should add Brodeur to this too.
 
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The Great Weal

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Ok so back on that scrub Kotkaniemi. When is training camp again? I believe his teams first game is September 14.
 

LaP

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Yeah, sure, try comparing Roy to any of his teammates though, it's evident who wore the hat on most nights.

To be honest though both Bellows and Damphousse are very close to being HOF players. Bellows was nearing the end of his career but he was just 28 and still in his prime (the end of it). Damphousse was only 25 and in the middle of his prime years.

Not in Hall of Fame - 39. Vincent Damphousse
Not in Hall of Fame - 50. Brian Bellows

Then you had players like Muller, Desjardins and Schneider who were pretty good players. Both Schneider and Desjardins were just 23 and not in their prime years yet but they eventually became top dmen. Both Schneider and Desjardins finished top 10 in the Norris voting in their career. Desjardins once finished 4th so just one position away from being nominated for the Norris.

It was a young team and imo still to this day a very underrated team.
 

Mrb1p

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To be honest though both Bellows and Damphousse are very close to being HOF players. Bellows was nearing the end of his career but he was just 28 and still in his prime (the end of it). Damphousse was only 25 and in the middle of his prime years.

Not in Hall of Fame - 39. Vincent Damphousse
Not in Hall of Fame - 50. Brian Bellows

Then you had players like Muller, Desjardins and Schneider who were pretty good players. Both Schneider and Desjardins were just 23 and not in their prime years yet but they eventually became top dmen. Both Schneider and Desjardins finished top 10 in the Norris voting in their career. Desjardins once finished 4th so just one position away from being nominated for the Norris.

It was a young team and imo still to this day a very underrated team.
Obviously it was, but no player on that team was close to Roy.
 

Filunki

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I think the no. 1C is the team's top center that the team management is satisfied with and is not actively trying to acquire a better replacement.
 
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