Player Discussion Jeff Gorton Part II

[Kakko Schmakko]

That's just one out of many questionable moves this guy is responsible for..

McDonagh and Stepan trades look terrible. Trouba trade was pretty bad and forced having to give up 2nd rounder to move Staal. Biggest dumbass move though was hiring Quinn and his clowns. Would have been a solid move for Hartford maybe.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

McDonagh, Miller, Zucc, Hayes and Pionk out
Howden, Hajek, Trouba in
2 candidates for bottom pairing D possible though both guys could end losing out to drafted players

Did you purposely not include the players we drafted? Also, this excludes the Nash trade that was a home run.

 

[NYR]

McDonagh and Stepan trades look terrible. Trouba trade was pretty bad and forced having to give up 2nd rounder to move Staal. Biggest dumbass move though was hiring Quinn and his clowns. Would have been a solid move for Hartford maybe.

Exactly..

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

buyouts of Girardi, Lundqvist and Shattenkirk that is some awesome GMing

Zuccarello trade was brutal and showed how naïve this GM is.

 

[jay from jersey]

Did you purposely not include the players we drafted? Also, this excludes the Nash trade that was a home run.

Zibby trade looks pretty good too

 

[ArPanet]

Did you purposely not include the players we drafted? Also, this excludes the Nash trade that was a home run.

yes I did purposely not include them and yes I did exclude the Nash trade

im saying for the players I listed that’s what we got and I think it’s poor

 

[SnowblindNYR]

yes I did purposely not include them and yes I did exclude the Nash trade

im saying for the players I listed that’s what we got and I think it’s poor

But we also got K'Andre Miller I believe from those trades and Trouba has had a solid season, he's not a scrub.

 

[ArPanet]

Miller came from Nash trade

Trouba contract horrendous no win for Gorton

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Miller came from Nash trade

Trouba contract horrendous no win for Gorton

Then was it Lundkvist, the top prospect in our system and someone ranked #10 from all prospects? Yeah that seems like a pretty good get. Sure Howden and Hajek didn't work out, but that's a good get. And yeah Trouba is overpaid but at some point you have to look at the player as well. He's a very solid top 4 defenseman. Also, everyone thought Gorton was a genius after that trade. All of a sudden he's terrible because Pionk who sucked for us against all odds became pretty good? Being the GM of a team doesn't mean you have this amazing foresight that no one else has. We all were singing his praises after the Trouba trade, literally everyone.

 

[ArPanet]

Would you trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist?

Hayes and Pionk for Trouba?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Would you trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist?

Hayes and Pionk for Trouba?

Would I trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist? No. McD for Lundkvist yes, Miller hurt. I don't know why they needed to throw him in. But Miller wasn't the same player with the Rangers. He wasn't the same player with the Lightning either and that team is elite in player development and has the best talent in the league. Over 2 seasons, he was a 54 point player for the Lightning and that's including his PPG first 19 games. The Trouba trade is Monday morning quarterbacking as everyone celebrated it. Pionk was not a good player for the Rangers. Trouba is still probably the better defenseman but he is overpaid. I also don't see what the big deal is about Hayes, he's a 50 point player in a league where 50 point players are a dime a dozen. I think in the NHL in 2021 a 50 point player is a good third liner, average second liner. Nothing special. We shit on Strome but the last two seasons he's been pacing 70 points. Hayes is better than Chytil is now, but I think that will change in a couple of years.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Would you trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist?

Hayes and Pionk for Trouba?

exactly.

Our caveman GM was badly played on these trades as well as Zuccarello trade.

 

[jay from jersey]

Then was it Lundkvist, the top prospect in our system and someone ranked #10 from all prospects? Yeah that seems like a pretty good get. Sure Howden and Hajek didn't work out, but that's a good get. And yeah Trouba is overpaid but at some point you have to look at the player as well. He's a very solid top 4 defenseman. Also, everyone thought Gorton was a genius after that trade. All of a sudden he's terrible because Pionk who sucked for us against all odds became pretty good? Being the GM of a team doesn't mean you have this amazing foresight that no one else has. We all were singing his praises after the Trouba trade, literally everyone.

You still make that trade. Pionk cannot provide what trouba does. His contract isn’t great but they bought a lot of UFA years in his prime. Pre-covid. Hindsight is 20/20. We have to look at context not just the things we don’t like

 

[kovazub94]

Trouba has brought stability to arguably both 2 top defensive pairs. No way Miller is able to spend the whole season in top-4 without Trouba to his right, and no way Fox and Lindgren are able to put up good offensive numbers without Trouba eating minutes on the defensive end.

He also allowed Smith, Hajek etc to just have limited minutes on the 3rd pair.

 

[kovazub94]

Would you trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist?

Hayes and Pionk for Trouba?

You can’t pick and choose like you did here. Can’t expect Gorton to hit home runs on every trade and he had plenty of these too. Only GMs that don’t make trades don’t lose any, especially when prospects and draft picks are involved.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Would you trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist?

Hayes and Pionk for Trouba?

I'm not as upset as others about trading an aging McDonagh and an underperfoming Miller for a middle-6 versatile forward in Namestnikov, a young bottom 6 center with upside in Howden, a young left-handed defenseman in Hájek, a 1st round pick and a conditional 1st round pick.

Yeah, Namestnikov didn't work out, which is unlucky and in hindsight, the 2 young prospects didn't take the steps we expected them to in the 3 years since the draft. I think the trade way okay on draft day. It didn't age extremely well since then but it's not the fleecing some fans make it out to be.

 

[Chytilmania]

He deserves credit for not f**king us by trading for Karlson. That would have killed us. He deserves credit for completely tearing up a team that wouldn't have gone anywhere, and now has us with one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. He deserves credit for not getting stuck with Stepan's terrible decline and contract. Even McDonagh would have been tough to deal with while we weren't going anywhere. Now we have all these prospects and Panarin. After this season he will really be tested. I think having a normal season and offseason will help all the young guys next year and I think once the salary cap normalizes that will help as well. But whatever he decides to do with the plethora of prospects and the logjams we have will be super important.

Hey it could be worse, we could be teams like Nashville, Winnipeg and Calgary who are afraid to make trades and then they have disappointing playoffs every season. We'll see if Colorado ends up with the same fate over the next few years.

 

[LokiDog]

Would I trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist? No. McD for Lundkvist yes, Miller hurt. I don't know why they needed to throw him in. But Miller wasn't the same player with the Rangers. He wasn't the same player with the Lightning either and that team is elite in player development and has the best talent in the league. Over 2 seasons, he was a 54 point player for the Lightning and that's including his PPG first 19 games. The Trouba trade is Monday morning quarterbacking as everyone celebrated it. Pionk was not a good player for the Rangers. Trouba is still probably the better defenseman but he is overpaid. I also don't see what the big deal is about Hayes, he's a 50 point player in a league where 50 point players are a dime a dozen. I think in the NHL in 2021 a 50 point player is a good third liner, average second liner. Nothing special. We shit on Strome but the last two seasons he's been pacing 70 points. Hayes is better than Chytil is now, but I think that will change in a couple of years.

There was 63 forwards in the NHL with 50 points last year. There’s 99 forwards playing first line minutes in the NHL. 198 playing in the top six. I know the season was cut 10-12 games short, but there would not likely have been 132 more players reaching that mark. This is a common misconception that 50 points is borderline third line production when it’s actually low end 1st line(not elite 1st liners, but enough to be playing on someone’s 1st line)/good 2nd line production.

 

[bleedblue94]

what proof do you have that a teams were not interested in ADA after last season?

The fact no trade was made when it's been reported repeatedly that NYR was looking to move him. Do you think if gorton had a "big return" offered like you're elluding to that ada (a player who's as already told by the organization he was down to his very last chance here) would've even been here to start the season?

Use some common sense

 

[bleedblue94]

Would I trade McD and Miller for Lundkvist? No. McD for Lundkvist yes, Miller hurt. I don't know why they needed to throw him in. But Miller wasn't the same player with the Rangers. He wasn't the same player with the Lightning either and that team is elite in player development and has the best talent in the league. Over 2 seasons, he was a 54 point player for the Lightning and that's including his PPG first 19 games. The Trouba trade is Monday morning quarterbacking as everyone celebrated it. Pionk was not a good player for the Rangers. Trouba is still probably the better defenseman but he is overpaid. I also don't see what the big deal is about Hayes, he's a 50 point player in a league where 50 point players are a dime a dozen. I think in the NHL in 2021 a 50 point player is a good third liner, average second liner. Nothing special. We shit on Strome but the last two seasons he's been pacing 70 points. Hayes is better than Chytil is now, but I think that will change in a couple of years.

I think miller was moved more for off ice stuff than the player he was. It is incredible to see what he's matured into as a player, but sometimes players need the wakeup calls. Being dealt twice in just over a year may have provided that to him. I believe he's elluded to that in interviews.

I think we forget how much crap benning got at the time for trading that 1st for Miller.

 

[haveandare]

what proof do you have that a teams were not interested in ADA after last season?

What proof do you have they were? You said so.

 

[GAGLine]

There was 63 forwards in the NHL with 50 points last year. There’s 99 forwards playing first line minutes in the NHL. 198 playing in the top six. I know the season was cut 10-12 games short, but there would not likely have been 132 more players reaching that mark. This is a common misconception that 50 points is borderline third line production when it’s actually low end 1st line(not elite 1st liners, but enough to be playing on someone’s 1st line)/good 2nd line production.

This is valid, but only to a point, because it's averaging out the numbers across all 31 teams. We don't aspire to finish in 16th place. The best teams will have players on their top line scoring significantly better than 50/82.

Hayes is currently the 7th best player on the Flyers in terms of points per game. He would be the 6th best player on the Rangers, 5th on Boston, 3rd on Buffalo and 2nd on Detroit.

On a good team, 50 points is not a 1st line player.

 

[LokiDog]

This is valid, but only to a point, because it's averaging out the numbers across all 31 teams. We don't aspire to finish in 16th place. The best teams will have players on their top line scoring significantly better than 50/82.

Hayes is currently the 7th best player on the Flyers in terms of points per game. He would be the 6th best player on the Rangers, 5th on Boston, 3rd on Buffalo and 2nd on Detroit.

On a good team, 50 points is not a 1st line player.

No, I agree with that. But it’s also rare to have third line players who are 50 point players and when you do it’s because you have exceptional depth at whichever position they’re playing. Hayes is 6th among Philly forwards and would be 6th on the Rangers as well, but he’s a solid all around player who brings more than just points to the table (not trying to talk him up, we all know what Hayes is). If Philly had gotten better goaltending and defense this year they’d be a good team. They’re definitely below expectations for this year. They have a deep forward core and are underperforming in the standings. You mentioned bad teams and where he’d rank in the scoring but he’d also be 5th among forwards on Carolina, 5th on Florida, 5th on Vegas, 4th in Boston, 4th in Tampa, 4th in Pittsburgh.

My point was just that 50 point players really aren’t 3rd liners. That’s pretty much bonafide top six production.

 

[kovazub94]

...On a good team, 50 points is not a 1st line player.

Agree - especially about a faulty analysis that averages over 31 teams - but with a caveat that such player is not contributing in some other ways on the 1st line.

 

[SA16]

On most good teams 50 points is a first line player. The only real exception are BOS/COL only because they play their three best players together.

TB has some combination of Cirelli/Killorn/Palat/Johnson
FLA has had Duclair on the first line most of the year
Caps either have Oshie/Wilson there
Islanders have a team of 50 point players and Barzal
Leafs have a rotating third wheel on L1 the best of which is Hyman.
EDM has had Puljujarvi L1 recently and Yamamoto at other times
VGK 1C is Chandler Stephenson

Those are the top 2 teams in every division excluding Colorado who I already mentioned.