Confirmed with Link: Jason Botterill Hired As General Manager -- MOD WARNING #1851

[Sabresfansince1980]

You can’t say it’s fantastic until at least one of them becomes an actual player. There is no length you will not go to heap praise on Botterill over absolutely zero results.

It's not an exaggeration, jeezus. I said "so far" because of course we have to wait until they prove themselves in the NHL, but "so far" several of his picks have looked better than most from over the last 3-7 years.

Damn...I KNOW you guys are smart enough to understand what that statement means. If only people weren't so bent on arguing.

 

[RobRayzor]

Wrong thread

 

[Fezzy126]

Let’s ignore the idea that gm just blindly trusts his scouts and doesn’t take a good look at certain tiers of players himself.

Beyond that, are you telling me that it’s not a blight on a gm to not be able to convince his ownership to invest heavily into his scouting department with no cap restrictions and one of the top 5 richest owners in the league?

Simply management.... as if Botts is a tourist watching to see what happens next on the show.

It's well documented by multiple sources that Pegula heavily re-invested the scouting department when he bought the team, which was back when Darcy was the GM. They continued to reshape the scouting department when TM became the GM, and then did a complete turnover of the department when Botts took over. Ironically, many posters had been calling for a complete turnover for a long time because we had been recycling the same old tired names around here for years.

Botts is no more a scout than someone like Yzerman, Shanahan, or Kyle Dubas. I expect him to take scouting trips to evaluate the potential 1st round selections, but that's pretty much it. Moreso, it's about hiring the right people and giving them the resources and structure that they need to succeed. I'd expect if specific scouts continually underperform that Botts would address the matter accordingly. However, evaluating a scouts performance over the course of only two years, especially in a sport like hockey is quite ridiculous.

It's fine if you don't believe me, but there are multiple videos available of teams' draft rooms and the discussions/debates between scouts that occur before selecting a player. In every single one of these videos the GM appears to only have a high level of knowledge of the players and defers to the expertise of his scouts.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Botts traded away ROR for what could amount to absolutely nothing...let that sink in.

As bad as the trade was it might be nothing to you but to the sabres they saved 7.5m(Which for some reason was important to them)got a 1st and Tage Thompson.

 

[sabremike]

As bad as the trade was it might be nothing to you but to the sabres they saved 7.5m(Which for some reason was important to them)got a 1st and Tage Thompson.

Terry Pegulia 2013: If we need to spend I'll drill another well.

Terry Pegulia 2019: From now on when we are on the road we only stay at Motel 6.

 

[sabremike]

As bad as the trade was it might be nothing to you but to the sabres they saved 7.5m(Which for some reason was important to them)got a 1st and Tage Thompson.

The minimum of 2 home playoff games the team would be playing if not for this idiotic move would've covered quite a bit of that 7.5m but #PennyWisePoundFoolish

 

[old kummelweck]

Botterill was trying to change the locker room culture, and whether you agree or not, he identified ROR as part of the problem, and not part of the solution. The return he got for him was the market price for a guy that had just told the world he lost his passion for the game, but also had a black mark on his record in COL in a young room.

I think it is perfectly fair to judge Botterill on this trade, that maybe he didn't really understand what was going on with the team and made a bad decision. But you can't fully judge the trade on value, nor can you say things would have worked out with ROR here without looking at the full context.

 

[truthbluth]

The minimum of 2 home playoff games the team would be playing if not for this idiotic move would've covered quite a bit of that 7.5m but #PennyWisePoundFoolish

I maintain the the most likely scenario behind the RoR trade, including the timing, is that TPegs was irate about O'Reilly's post season interview and told Jason, "Get rid of that guy. I'm not paying that crusty hippy one more red cent."
It's pure speculation, but seems right.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

 

[sabremike]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

And if it was a choice between those two I'd take ROR seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

 

[Aladyyn]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

You should definitely not do that.

 

[Zip15]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

I'm tired of relitigating this point. We could've had both. We were always going to need another goal-scorer off the wing after trading Kane, and it was financially feasible to have both ROR and Skinner.

 

[truthbluth]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

Why? They are entirely unrelated. The Sabres have $28mill in cap room next season, and only have to sign Ullmark, McCabe, Erod, Girgs and Larsson. That's what? $11mill. Add in RoR's 7.5 and you've got 18.5. That leaves 9.5 for Skinner, and that's if you don't make moves on guys like Sobotka, Hunwick, Scandella and Sheary, who impossibly account for $12.75 million in cap space.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

You should definitely not do that.

Why? Assuming the Sabres spend roughly to the cap in the coming years?

And i would take ROR over Skinner too - but that's not the point I'm making here.

 

[Team Cozens]

Is there a way to block all conversations that contain the word "ROR" ???

 

[sabrebuild]

It's well documented by multiple sources that Pegula heavily re-invested the scouting department when he bought the team, which was back when Darcy was the GM. They continued to reshape the scouting department when TM became the GM, and then did a complete turnover of the department when Botts took over. Ironically, many posters had been calling for a complete turnover for a long time because we had been recycling the same old tired names around here for years.

Botts is no more a scout than someone like Yzerman, Shanahan, or Kyle Dubas. I expect him to take scouting trips to evaluate the potential 1st round selections, but that's pretty much it. Moreso, it's about hiring the right people and giving them the resources and structure that they need to succeed. I'd expect if specific scouts continually underperform that Botts would address the matter accordingly. However, evaluating a scouts performance over the course of only two years, especially in a sport like hockey is quite ridiculous.

It's fine if you don't believe me, but there are multiple videos available of teams' draft rooms and the discussions/debates between scouts that occur before selecting a player. In every single one of these videos the GM appears to only have a high level of knowledge of the players and defers to the expertise of his scouts.

Nobody doesn’t believe you. The way you posted made it sound like they never went back to having a lot more live scouts. I agree they did. It was just odd to me to bring up an era of video scouting from 6 years ago when discussing Botts, who has never had that issue since taking over.

But two things on the scouts basically making the pick. First, if we agree to that idea and your own position that two years is not enough time for Botts to evaluate his scouts and make changes if needed, then we can basically say that Botts gets zero credit for the draft. Which leaves his impact on the team over two years as good Skinner and Pilut. And then just flat out awful everywhere else. As the President would say not good.

Second, ya I have watched plenty of those edited documentary pieces. And you can take that as you will. But I can promise you, the gm has a strong opinion on his first round pick without a doubt, which i think we agree on. But after that it is a statistical crap shoot. There is no such thing as having the right people in place to hit on your 3rd or worse round pick. There has not been a team in the history of the league who routinely hit in the later rounds, in the last twenty years, since Europe became much less foggy for prospects.

Great scouting, gut decisions, in the end the draft is the luckiest aspect of the sport.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

There's absolutely no way the Sabres make that deal unless he is re-signing.

Not even Murray is that crazy.

I've never seen anything that said Buffalo made contact with O'Reilly before the trade. And they have needed Colorado's permission to do so. Buffalo needed a center and took a gamble.

 

[Jim Bob]

I've never seen anything that said Buffalo made contact with O'Reilly before the trade. And they have needed Colorado's permission to do so. Buffalo needed a center and took a gamble.

Murray said at the time of the trade that they hadn't talked to ROR prior to the trade. But, he didn't expect to have an issue signing him to an extension.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I'm tired of relitigating this point. We could've had both. We were always going to need another goal-scorer off the wing after trading Kane, and it was financially feasible to have both ROR and Skinner.

Can you imagine Skinner-Eichel and RoR-Reinhart for the next 5 years? That's an elite top-6. Now I'm left hoping a player like Courtier becomes available, but then I realize finding a GM dumb enough to trade a player of that calibre is rare+ the asking price will be much higher than what we got for RoR.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Gotta love the people comparing Botts to Murray. In the West the Sabres would firmly be in a playoff spot. He acquired the leagues 2nd leading goal scorer for pretty much a mid 2nd, the Sabres have been dog **** for nearly a decade and are on pace for 90+ points and its all doom and gloom. Still 27 games left. Skinner was not re-signing before the deadline he wants 8 years. I love that Botts gets early blame for having to "trade Skinner" but no credit for acquiring him in the first place.

To be fair, how hard did he have to work to acquire Skinner? Skinner wouldn't sign in Carolina and word is he would only go to two teams. Toronto's full on forwards. This makes Botterills job pretty easy.

 

[Gordo21]

You also should factor in Skinner to the ROR move if he signs long term...

I'm not even sure we make the Skinner trade at all without the O'Reilly trade

 

[jcbeze]

I'm not even sure we make the Skinner trade at all without the O'Reilly trade

We don't

 

[CatsforReinhart]

The minimum of 2 home playoff games the team would be playing if not for this idiotic move would've covered quite a bit of that 7.5m but #PennyWisePoundFoolish

I am not sure why but that 7.5m seemed important for the sabres to dump. I agree with you Pegula didn't not give that image off before but they took a 180 on it.

 

[Beerz]

There's absolutely no way the Sabres make that deal unless he is re-signing.

Not even Murray is that crazy.

We weren't allowed to talk to ROR... Murray himself stated he had no assurances that RoR would re-sign.

 

[tsujimoto74]

There is an ROR thread to talk about ROR. This is not the place for it. Knock it off.

I get that part of evaluating a GM is looking at the trades he makes, but this is not the place to rehash the same tired arguments we've been having about ROR on this board since July.