Confirmed with Link: Jason Botterill Hired As General Manager -- MOD WARNING #1851

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Zip15

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I'm not even sure we make the Skinner trade at all without the O'Reilly trade


Again, if retaining ROR would have prevented Botts from pursuing Skinner, that reflects poorly on Botterill. That was a club that finished DFL in GF last year and they had traded the guy who would've been their leading goal-scorer (Kane). Specifically, if his plan entering the season was to replace Kane's goals off the wing was "do nothing and hope the guys here will backfill that production," then we've got much bigger problems.
 

brian_griffin

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Who did more damage - Botts or Murray?
Leon Czolgosz.


I'm tired of relitigating this point.
<snipped remainder of post which mentioned Voldemort>
Bonus points for vocabulary.

As bad as the trade was it might be nothing to you but to the sabres they saved 7.5m(Which for some reason was important to them)got a 1st and Tage Thompson.

I am not sure why but that 7.5m seemed important for the sabres to dump. I agree with you Pegula didn't not give that image off before but they took a 180 on it.
Not sure I follow... They dumped 5 years of $7.5 per for useful top-45-in-NHL-center-production, but turned around and took back 2 years of a combined ($3.85 + $3.5 = $7.35) and 2 additional years of $3.85 of borderline NHL production.

There was no $7.5M savings, any way you look at it.
 

beerme1

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I'm sorry, I disagree with the ROR eval. Buffalo traded for O'Reilly who would not sign in Colorado and needed a contract. Buffalo took a big gamble to trade for him. Thats why the price was good for Buffalo. I mean he could have walked and Buffalo could have been left with nothing. We trading him while he was under contract for 5 more years. That's a huge difference. While the pieces may be close to equal to acquire O'Reilly, the circumstances are way different. The crappy city of Buffalo had 2 great centers locked up and traded one for peanuts because of hurt feelings.

You don't live in Buffalo?
 

debaser66

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As bad as the trade was it might be nothing to you but to the sabres they saved 7.5m(Which for some reason was important to them)got a 1st and Tage Thompson.
The pegulas saved 7.5mil
The Sabres lost a bit of value in the trade.
Edit: You are talking bout the signing bonus arent you cause there are no savings contractwise?
 
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debaser66

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Again, if retaining ROR would have prevented Botts from pursuing Skinner, that reflects poorly on Botterill. That was a club that finished DFL in GF last year and they had traded the guy who would've been their leading goal-scorer (Kane). Specifically, if his plan entering the season was to replace Kane's goals off the wing was "do nothing and hope the guys here will backfill that production," then we've got much bigger problems.
HC didnt know how to use Kane here.
He only managed to drive his value down till last years TDL with him not scoring much after a hot start.
 

HaNotsri

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Dec 29, 2013
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The pegulas saved 7.5mil
The Sabres lost a bit of value in the trade.
Edit: You are talking bout the signing bonus arent you cause there are no savings contractwise?
If they made the trade after paying the bonus it would cost them bonus+the new contracts. Wasn’t the bonus pretty much the whole cap hit this year? Meaning a payout in about 14-15 million instead for what we ended up with.
 

Steddy33

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Jan 7, 2012
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HC didnt know how to use Kane here.
He only managed to drive his value down till last years TDL with him not scoring much after a hot start.
Um I'm on boat with Housley blowing goats as a coach, because he does. But Evander Kane stopped scoring mostly because his effort fell substantially once he knew he was out the door at the deadline. Kane was force fed minutes with Eichel and on power play to try to drive up his value.
 

debaser66

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Botterill was trying to change the locker room culture, and whether you agree or not, he identified ROR as part of the problem, and not part of the solution. The return he got for him was the market price for a guy that had just told the world he lost his passion for the game, but also had a black mark on his record in COL in a young room.

I think it is perfectly fair to judge Botterill on this trade, that maybe he didn't really understand what was going on with the team and made a bad decision. But you can't fully judge the trade on value, nor can you say things would have worked out with ROR here without looking at the full context.
Culture change isnt always because a player isnt working out as a person or a player.
My believe is they simply wanted to shake things up.
 
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debaser66

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Um I'm on boat with Housley blowing goats as a coach, because he does. But Evander Kane stopped scoring mostly because his effort fell substantially once he knew he was out the door at the deadline. Kane was force fed minutes with Eichel and on power play to try to drive up his value.
Why would he intentionally stop scoring in his contract year that makes no sense.
 

kp2575

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It’s hard to pin that on Regier. The scouting changes weren’t his idea. That was Gollisano.

Forget completely whiffing on first round picks in multiple years before 2010. The 2010 and 2011 drafts were horrifically awful. The 2012 first round and the development of those players did not help the franchise. The 2013 draft was pretty good but only two players remain in the organization. (That's not on him.)

It's one of the many reasons why the team is where they are now. The franchise has been mismanaged for a decade. Hopefully, they've turned the corner.
 
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threeVo

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Trading 2 1st round picks in what is going to be the best draft in a generation will haunt this team for the next decade. (Not JBs fault obviously). Getting crap back for ROR sucks, but maybe we get the next Pasternak with that pick.
 

brian_griffin

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Um I'm on boat with Housley blowing goats as a coach, because he does. But Evander Kane stopped scoring mostly because his effort fell substantially once he knew he was out the door at the deadline. Kane was force fed minutes with Eichel and on power play to try to drive up his value.
Not looking to argue, but I'm not sure that's completely true.
Throughout his career, Kane's been an roughly even goals vs. assists scorer, and he's averaged ~0.6-0.66ppg each season. His final 3/4 season in BUF in 2017-18 was no different.
Force fed minutes with Eichel...??? Whom else was Eichel clamoring for on his left side? Benoit Pouliot, his ex-landlord Matt Moulson, Seth Griffith, Scott Wilson??? Kane was taking time away from no one, and I don't think he was force-fed minutes to drive up his value. NHL teams new Kane's value before he came to BUF. That Kane was able to drive play and put up points despite the low-talent & ineptly-coached Sabres squads for 2.75 seasons did nothing but cement his value.

/
Ask Kane. Maybe he was trying to not get hurt. I'm not inside the guys head. But it was super obvious his effort level went down.
If his effort went down, perhaps it was the odor of Dahlin in the air in the 2nd half of the season...
 

GellMann

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Culture change isnt always because a player isnt working out as a person or a player.
My believe is they simply wanted to shake things up.
This needs to be mentioned every time someone brings up fixing the culture with ROR. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest Botts' reasoning for the trade was anything other than "well i can't keep a last place team together, and he's the oldest member of the core with the biggest cap hit, so he's obviously the one to move." Not a single shred of evidence, in a league where I can read about Artemi Panarin's trade request, and Duchene not speaking to anyone for weeks while still on the Avalanche after a trade demand, while I'm on the toilet.

And no, Vogl writing the phrase "vortex of sadness" in a sneering tone after pretending to care about mental health issues because Lehner gave him a story, is not evidence of a ravaged culture.
 
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