Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[Chainshot]

I'd be ecstatic if Botterill was "Regier-like". Darcy was GM from 1997-2013 with 8 playoff appearances, 4 ECF appearances, 1 SC appearance, 1 presidents trophy.

If you want to pretend 1997-2007 didn't happen, then yea, Darcy wasn't a good GM.

The flip side to that is Regier inherited a team with a league MVP on it and took it from ECF and SC appearances in his first two seasons to a rotten husk by the end of his tenure.

 

[kp2575]

The flip side to that is Regier inherited a team with a league MVP on it and took it from ECF and SC appearances in his first two seasons to a rotten husk by the end of his tenure.

I mean whiffing on 5 out of 9 first round picks from 2005-2011 and having back to back drafts where you get one real NHL player is a great way to destroy a franchise.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I’m suggesting don’t talk to the media unless you need to or when you have something good to say.

He already will have to talk to them after the deadline.

Why do this? Unless you just don’t realize that you will sound, less than impressive...

I don’t think he thinks it went poorly at all. It’s exactly how every presser has gone, besides one semi-tough question he finally had to answer.

He answered it exactly how the organization would expect him to - as Harrington said in his article, he sounded like he practiced all the answers. The idea that this was a disaster is purely in the minds of frustrated fans, who have zero leverage or influence on his decisions. It went fine in his view, he’s still preaching patience like he always has.

 

[Chainshot]

I mean whiffing on 5 out of 9 first round picks from 2005-2011 and having back to back drafts where you get one real NHL player is a great way to destroy a franchise.

Preaching to the choir.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Taking the long route made absolutely no sense when Botts had:

RoR
Reinhart
Eichel
Dahlin

Team's typically take the long route when they have no elite talents. We weren't in n that position.


Botts had a plan, but it wasnt efficient at all. It's also a hell of a lot more risky. He set this team back, and there's no guarantee they'll recover from it.

 

[kp2575]

Preaching to the choir.

Was totally agreeing with you. The back to back to possibly back inept management is just mind-numbing to me. The fact that people try and defend previous inept management because it wasn't "as bad" as another GM annoys me. This is a culmination of ten years of mismanagement. I want to be positive and feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel but it's just so hard when the crap keeps piling up.

 

[old kummelweck]

I find my impatience with this playoff drought and this current skid skewing my ability to objectively criticize Botterill's tenure. That said, he owns this roster and the coach hire, and I'm not sure how he can claim things are progressing.

 

[dasaybz]

So you are counting on more prospects with multiple years of development for the grand plan?

How many years of Eichel and Dahlin are you comfortable with wasting for the pipeline?

Btw, the players that are a big part of their pipeline and currently on the team were Murray pickups. Asplund, Olofsson, Guhle, Borgen, Nylander, Nelson,etc.

I don’t bring that up to defend Murray, I bring it up to say why the hell are we acting like Botts got a barren wasteland?

He got to take over with Eichel, Reinhart, Risto, Kane, O’Reilly and pretty much every useful player on this team not named Skinner.

Let’s stop acting like Botts is the little Dutch girl with her finger in the dyke.

He has spent two years, in one year dropping badly in the standings from his predecessor on the strength of his own signings and in year two.... we shall see.

But for Christ’s sakes, since Botts took this job, the islanders have fired a coach, lost a player better than anyonevwe have for nothing, and are a much better team than us.

But Murray left the pipeline empty. It’s always a question for me, do you think Botts is a genius for “re-stocking” the pipeline, or could it be that the pipeline was never emptied and it’s just a talking point, because wow, Botts fixed that in a year and a half. Only needed a last place finish and to trade a great player for peanuts.

100% absolutely. If the "grand plan" doesn't count on them, it's pointless to keep the Amerks stocked. The pipeline we have now is OK I guess, but Murray had the chance to draft 3 first round guys in a loaded draft, and he went in another direction. At the time I thought it was stupid, and it looks even dumber by the day.

I never said Botts was a genius, but if you think our pipeline wasn't emptied, then I don't know what to tell you. We had 3 firsts, Zadorov, Compher, Lemieux, Pysyk, etc, all traded away. We could have just been patient, and let these guys find their way to Buffalo. Ultimately, I think this is what Bott's plan is. I'm not saying he's done an awesome job, but I prefer to build my team this way, then Murray's way.

 

[TehDoak]

I find my impatience with this playoff drought and this current skid skewing my ability to objectively criticize Botterill's tenure. That said, he owns this roster and the coach hire, and I'm not sure how he can claim things are progressing.

Think of it like this.

in GMJB's 1st year, he drove the car off the cliff

In GMJB's second year, he's only rear ended 3 other other cars, ran over a household pets and through a storefront. But hey...he didn't go off the cliff! Progress!

 

[Chainshot]

Was totally agreeing with you. The back to back to possibly back inept management is just mind-numbing to me. The fact that people try and defend previous inept management because it wasn't "as bad" as another GM annoys me. This is a culmination of ten years of mismanagement. I want to be positive and feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel but it's just so hard when the crap keeps piling up.

That light is probably a train.

 

[debaser66]

This is also the way I read it. "I will make deals when I can make deals that I think are good for the team" kinda thing.

I not happy with the team's performance or where they are currently. I am also against trying to force deals that will leave us worse off. The ROR deal seemed like a forced deal. Does anyone want Botts to do that again? Maybe the fact that he hasn't shows he's learned not to do that. Maybe he is also just incompetent. I am willing to give it one more summer before the tar and feathers come out. Would I have liked Phil fired in December? Yes. Would I have liked an impact trade? Yes. If we get to next October and Phil is still behind the bench and we haven't made substantial changes then I will be right there with my pitchfork.

Again, I am not happy with the direction of the team or performance right now. This isn't a post defending Phil or Botts. We are where we are because of them, but I don't mind giving Botts one more summer to try and fix it.

Nobody forced him to do anything when he did.
You make it sound like he isn't responsible for his actions.
I didn't mind the change but I expected a premium return or not do it at all.

 

[debaser66]

2-20: Jason Botterill (11:13)

On the tumble from 1st in the NHL to the current position in the standings:

"Well, I probably didn't imagine that there would be a scenario where we'd be first in the league to begin with. It happened. Very proud of that accomplishment. This league has a lot of parity. You have to be prepared for everything. Our players are facing adversity here right now. I like where our players are at... You look at over the last ten games or so, we want better results, but it's a situation where we put ourselves in a spot to win games in the third period. Just haven't had results."

Sorry Buffalo. I wasn't prepared for winning just yet!

 

[SabresFan26]

I'd be ecstatic if Botterill was "Regier-like". Darcy was GM from 1997-2013 with 8 playoff appearances, 4 ECF appearances, 1 SC appearance, 1 presidents trophy.

If you want to pretend 1997-2007 didn't happen, then yea, Darcy wasn't a good GM.

Add in ownership issues, imposed salary cap issues, and everything else that was going on back then as well. Regier built some great teams with limited resources.

 

[Mattilaus]

Nobody forced him to do anything when he did.
You make it sound like he isn't responsible for his actions.
I didn't mind the change but I expected a premium return or not do it at all.

It's very clear from my post that I am saying Botts forced a deal through with unfavourable terms because he felt he had to. Given my stance in that post is specifically that I prefer he doesn't do that, it's clear I believe he has a choice. In the ROR case he made the wrong one which is why i said I don't want him to do that again.

I am not arguing that Botts was forced to make a deal, I am arguing he forced a deal through because he felt he had to. It's a completely different argument and Botts takes the blame. My main point was I hope that he hasn't made trades recently because he has learned not to force a deal if one isn't there. I want deals to improve the team, but i'd rather Botts do less/nothing if the right deal isn't available. At this point in time we don't know if he is incompetent or just can't find the right dance partner.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The flip side to that is Regier inherited a team with a league MVP on it and took it from ECF and SC appearances in his first two seasons to a rotten husk by the end of his tenure.

It's not fair to ignore the 2 additional ECF appearances with the best Sabres teams ever constructed. Those weren't inherited.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Add in ownership issues, imposed salary cap issues, and everything else that was going on back then as well. Regier built some great teams with limited resources.

BUT WHERE WERE THE TRADEZZZZ~~!!

 

[sabrebuild]

I don’t think he thinks it went poorly at all. It’s exactly how every presser has gone, besides one semi-tough question he finally had to answer.

He answered it exactly how the organization would expect him to - as Harrington said in his article, he sounded like he practiced all the answers. The idea that this was a disaster is purely in the minds of frustrated fans, who have zero leverage or influence on his decisions. It went fine in his view, he’s still preaching patience like he always has.

Oh I agree with you that I’m sure it’s the same stuff that he says in the organization.

And I’m sure Pegula wasn’t upset hearing the interview, if he did.

But Botts thinking that went ok is the scary part.

Long term, I think an interview like that poisons the well.

Schopp was hot about it last night, White was going on about it this morning. That doesn’t force the team to do anything now.

But it certainly starts the machine from the loud fans, and come the end of the season it’s a lot easier for an impulsive owner to fire people if the uproar starts.

I mean I think most people would have said bylsma and Murray were safe for another year around now in 2017.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I mean whiffing on 5 out of 9 first round picks from 2005-2011 and having back to back drafts where you get one real NHL player is a great way to destroy a franchise.

How much of that can actually be blamed on Regier, though? Regier didn't slash the scouting budget so that the overwhelming majority of amateur scouting was done by video. Ownership and budget were easily the #1 reason the Sabres were bleeding talent post- co-captain era.

 

[Chainshot]

It's not fair to ignore the 2 additional ECF appearances with the best Sabres teams ever constructed. Those weren't inherited.

He also had the advantage that happened when sweeping rule interpretation shifted in favor of the collected roster he'd put together. When those rules moved away from strict interpretation to more plodding/clutch-and-grab again -- coupled with ownership fumbling away the co-caps -- they really fell apart.

 

[sabrebuild]

100% absolutely. If the "grand plan" doesn't count on them, it's pointless to keep the Amerks stocked. The pipeline we have now is OK I guess, but Murray had the chance to draft 3 first round guys in a loaded draft, and he went in another direction. At the time I thought it was stupid, and it looks even dumber by the day.

I never said Botts was a genius, but if you think our pipeline wasn't emptied, then I don't know what to tell you. We had 3 firsts, Zadorov, Compher, Lemieux, Pysyk, etc, all traded away. We could have just been patient, and let these guys find their way to Buffalo. Ultimately, I think this is what Bott's plan is. I'm not saying he's done an awesome job, but I prefer to build my team this way, then Murray's way.

First I appreciate the effort, and I agree I don’t think you claim Botts is a genius nor do I think murray was by a long shot.

As it relates to the draft picks used back 4 years ago, I agree with you. I thought and continue to think that trading for O’Reilly was a great move. However, I hated the Myers and Lehner trades, Lehner just for the idea that a first for a goalie is stupid. Back then I would have been quite happy to get O’Reilly and no other big trades, and ride out one more bottom 5.

But now is not then. Now you are burning thru the prime of Eichel’s career. If the main plan is to honestly wait for the possibility that these draft picks will be good in a few years, we’ll I guess we just disagree on our tolerance level for watching Eichel waste his time. To me they need to get some immediate help this offseason, even if it might cost a pick.

But those trades didn’t empty the pipeline. They just shimmied it forward. It was just the wrong players, particularly bogo and Kane. Look at the names you listed and think about if you had just stayed put.

Zadorov, struggling in Colorado, maybe he is a top 4 guy with us, maybe he is still an inconsistent piece, certainly not more useful today and up to this point than bogo this year or Scandella last year.

Compher.... so what

Lemieux, so what

Pysyk, eh I wish we kept him. But a lot of that is based on kulikov getting hurt. And don’t forget Murray also got Asplund in that deal, one of the best pieces we have in Rochester.

To me, the only serious pieces of the future that Murray traded was Zadorov and the first for Lehner. Everyone else was perceived busts or minor pieces that everyone has and get replaced every year.

I guess the best follow up to all that, is how far away from the playoffs do you think they are?

Me, I think they are a good coach and a legit top 6 player away from being in this year.

Why should I play the lotto on a draft pick if I can get a guaranteed nhler to help now? The “pipeline” will undoubtedly be stocked and depleted several times while Eichel is here.

But hey I could be wrong, maybe missing the playoffs for a few more years is the way to go.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

He also had the advantage that happened when sweeping rule interpretation shifted in favor of the collected roster he'd put together. When those rules moved away from strict interpretation to more plodding/clutch-and-grab again -- coupled with ownership fumbling away the co-caps -- they really fell apart.

Sure the rules re-shifted, but they also lost to free agency a top pair of defenders, and an entire top line. Not many teams get stripped of that much talent for nothing.

 

[dasaybz]

But hey I could be wrong, maybe missing the playoffs for a few more years is the way to go.

I don't think they are that far off. The D needs to be much better, the goalies are a disaster, and the coach is clueless. But I feel like there are some real nice pieces in place, and this team should make a jump next year. If not, well, I'm not sure what the hell they are gonna do.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The Sabres are currently in the middle of that portion of their future which was mortgaged for TM's rebuild acceleration.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Team is going to look very, very different next year. I anticipate a huge influx of talent from Roch. VO, Asplund, Guhle and Borgen all making some kind of impact.

 

[Duddy]

The icing washed up vets that shouldn't be in the league portion?

Don't be silly, this line up is on Botts. This has nothing to do with Murray or his trades.