Jan Kovar 2010->
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CupHolders
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He was signed by the Isles and came to Lou/Trotz first camp. Didn't make the team, wasn't picked up on waivers then they mutually parted ways.
Islanders Officially Part with Jan Kovar
SoundAndFury
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He just never was fast, his game relied on strength and willingness to engage physically. Yet it's kinda hard to bully NHL D's as a 180 cm guy. He was a perfect compliment to Mozyakin (who is no speed demon himself and prefers to play slowly) but in the NHL you can't get by being slow anymore unless you have a very specific skillset which he doesn't. That's the very same set of issues Shumakov as well.
He could have probably been an NHLer before NHL went to the speed game fully in 14-15. After that, nobody really wants a bottom-6 center who is too slow to keep up with the play.
He could have probably been an NHLer before NHL went to the speed game fully in 14-15. After that, nobody really wants a bottom-6 center who is too slow to keep up with the play.
morehockeystats
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morehockeystats
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There are quite a few players that got to be KHL superstars without making any dent in the NHL.
The gap is wider than it's usually thought.
The gap is wider than it's usually thought.
SoundAndFury
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Your point being? Kaprizov also never made it to the NHL before this season. So? Was it his choice or do you think he magically got good this summer? Furthermore, how exactly is this relevant to the Kovar talk?Mozyakin himself never made it to the NHL.
Yes, and there are like Zuccarello who have higher PPG in the NHL than the KHL. Same with Tolvanen this season. I think people understand perfectly well how big the gap is, for the most part.
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Kaprizov is 23 y.o, Tolvanen is even younger, Zuccarello played one half-season in the KHL. Your point is moot.
Patrik Thoresen and Vadim Shipachyov are other great examples of Kovar/Mozyakin ilk, not Tolvanen and Kaprizov.
SoundAndFury
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You say my point is moot, but then give Shipachyov who played 3 games in the NHL as an example
How many of the "KHL stars who didn't make a dent" got to play in the NHL in their prime and more than one season?Furthermore, can you explain what exactly determines that Mozyakin is closer to Thoresen than Kaprizov? How does that even make sense? How are Kovar and Thoresen "players of the same ilk to Mozyakin" when one guy holds the league scoring record and the other 2 were never even considered the best players on their own team or line, nevermind the league?
I, however, do agree Thoresen and Kovar were very similar players - never the best players on their line but good enough to play with the best.
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Dirtyf1ghter
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You say my point is moot, but then give Shipachyov who played 3 games in the NHL as an example
Furthermore, can you explain what exactly determines that Mozyakin is closer to Thoresen than Kaprizov? How does that even make sense? How are Kovar and Thoresen "players of the same ilk to Mozyakin" when one guy holds the league scoring record and the other 2 were never even considered the best players on their own team or line, nevermind the league?
I, however, do agree Thoresen and Kovar were very similar players - never the best players on their line but good enough to play with the best.
As a French fan, I can say with certainty that Stéphane Da Costa is better than Antoine Roussel and Pierre-Edouard Bellemare.
But NHL franchises favor rougher players to play in the bottom 6. Jan Kovar isn't talented enough to play in a top 6. But he's more talented than many NHL players.
Mozyakin never wanted to play in North America because he doesn't like North American society. But if he had wanted to play in the NHL, he could easily have found a job there.
Among the 1000 best players in the world, there are 750 in North America, 250 in Europe.
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Considering the full NHL roster is 23 players, and 31 teams have 713 altogether, toss 37 top juniors into it as well and you've got the 750...
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Nigel Dawes, Jhonas Enroth, Jyrki Jokipaa, Brandon Yip, Linus Omark, Lukas Sedlak, Dennis Rasmussen, Darren Dietz were All-Stars in 2020, weren't they?You say my point is moot, but then give Shipachyov who played 3 games in the NHL as an example
Furthermore, can you explain what exactly determines that Mozyakin is closer to Thoresen than Kaprizov? How does that even make sense? How are Kovar and Thoresen "players of the same ilk to Mozyakin" when one guy holds the league scoring record and the other 2 were never even considered the best players on their own team or line, nevermind the league?
I, however, do agree Thoresen and Kovar were very similar players - never the best players on their line but good enough to play with the best.
Shipachyov came with all the fanfare, in his supposed prime, and folded within a week or so. Definitely, a player can choose a lighter schedule, a shorter season, an easier pace. But playing in the second tier renders second tier titles. That's why the WC titles and the Olympic titles outside 1998-2014 are not much of a big deal, too...
Kaprizov, on the other hand, took a bit of a time, but now he's on the same track as Panarin.
SoundAndFury
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Rasmussen is at 0.64 PPG in the KHL.
Yip 0.53 PPG
Sedlak 0.68 PPG
Enroth .912 Sv% and 39-78-14 record
I understand you know next to nothing about the league but you really think those are the stars of the league? Really? That's just a random collection of names ranging from actual KHL stars (Dawes and Omark) to guys that are/were mediocre at best. Some of them got to play in the All-Star game where each team of the league has to send someone the same way Rittich, Konecny, Duclair, Kreider, Tyler Bertuzzi etc. got to play in the NHL All-Star game. But some didn't even do that (Rasmussen) so yeah, no idea what kind of concoction is this list.
Most of the actual KHL stars are skilled offensive-minded players whose main shortcoming is their physicality. They either lack size or skate too bad. Some of them eventually succeed in the NHL, some don't. There is nothing new in that. Like @Dirtyfighter said, there are plenty of players in the NHL that probably wouldn't be considered good in Europe. From Russian players alone those would be Nichushkin, Maltsev, Trenin, Lyubushkin. Somone like Lyubushkin is in his third NHL season even though he really wouldn't be listed amongst top-50 KHL Ds. At the same time, there are obviously players who showed glimpses of brilliance in the NHL but ultimately got ground down like Omark, Dawes, Gusev (who all had over 0.5 PPG seasons in the NHL) and came back to Europe. And there are those who didn't even try like Mozyakin or Shipachyov.
From our conversation I understand you have almost no actual knowledge about European hockey so yeah, believe me, Mozyakin isn't "of the same ilk" as Kovar or Thoresen no matter how hard it would be for you to acknowledge it since you obviously have some kind of personal agenda about him/KHL/European hockey in general.
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filip85
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How is WC 2nd tier when all major nations have more or less full rosters of regular NHL-ers ?
Finland without NHL-ers beat Canada that had full-time NHL-ers (that couldn't get into Salary cap if they were an NHL team) in WC 2019. finals, by your logic it means that NHL is 2nd tier league !?
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morehockeystats
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There used to be a "2nd tier teams tournament for the prizes of the 'Leningrad Pravda'" once. My father once caught a puck at a game of it.
The real 2nd tier is the IIHF WC though.
A hastily stitched team of random NHL-ers could lose to anyone. That proves nothing.
The Canada Cups and the Olympic games 1998-2014 used to be the true test and the 1st tier.
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You'd be surprised of my knowledge of European, Russian and Soviet hockey; as of the list I presented, they were in the ASG 2020 for a reason, weren't they?
And I am pretty sure that if Lyubushkin decided to go to the KHL, he'd get double the salary he receives now.
Czechboy
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SoundAndFury
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Lyubushkin's NHL salary is 1 mil. Double that would make him far and away the best-paid player of the league. It would also take up 1/6 of the cap (which I doubt you knew existed). Even his current salary would place him firmly in the top-10 which seems kinda too much for a 2nd pairing D on a pretty humble team (within the context) at the best of times. I mean Loko played him 12 minutes per night during the recent covid loan stint.
They were in the All-Star game (albeit I'm still not sure about Rasmussen) because 1) all teams have to be represented; 2) by someone who is healthy and reasonably willing to attend. It's the same in the NHL. You are pretty much trying to prove Tyler Bertuzzi is 1) NHL star; 2) equal to McDavid because he played in the All-Star game. Not all people there are stars (even more so in the KHL where talent disparity is so much bigger) and not all "stars" are equal.
I thought it was fairly obvious I was talking about his KHL career. Thoresen was also by far the best player of some of the teams he played on, outside of the KHL. It's not really relevant to the current discussion.
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Czechboy
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It's a Jan Kovar thread.. you don't get to determine what is relevant.
SoundAndFury
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I mean you can post his NLA stats all you want in this thread, I have nothing against it. But don't quote me then since it had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It's not me determining what's relevant, it's me telling you that obviously wasn't what I was talking about.
Czechboy
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I've noticed that you are all over this thread talking about everything but Jan Kovar. You see, his NLA stats are relevant because it's a Jan Kovar thread and he is in the NLA. If he were in the ECHL, KHL or Wakandan Hockey League then I'd post those stats.
SoundAndFury
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So you quoted my post about Kovar to post his NLA numbers because I wasn't talking about Kovar? I'm glad you feel whatever this is what you are doing contributes to the discussion
Czechboy
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You said he was never the best player on his line... he just led a LEAGUE in scoring. The fact you changed it after to be KHL is not what you said originally and it deserved to be corrected given his achievement.So you quoted my post about Kovar to post his NLA numbers because I wasn't talking about Kovar? I'm glad you feel whatever this is what you are doing contributes to the discussion
I feel posting his current stats makes sense.
SoundAndFury
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Changed it after? What?
We were talking about the KHL for quite a while at that point. There is no question Kovar's contributions were directly tied to Mozyakin, they went up together and they went down together Kovar usually coming slightly (or on occasion not so slightly) behind him. I don't think there are any secrets here or doubts about it. And same applies to Thoresen playing with Radulov and Kovy for the majority of his career. That's what I/we were talking about. Thoresen, by the way, also came very close to leading the SHL in scoring in 15/16.
The fact that Kovar led NLA in scoring is great. I have no doubt if he ever moves to ECHL or Wakandan he could carry his line with ease there as well.
