Jamie Benn vs Vincent Lecavalier

[Sensinitis]

It's time for Uncle Kevster's story time.

I remember young Vincent Lecavalier. He wasn't that impressive, to be honest. But then came the day Martin St. Louis and Brad Richards arrived. These guys formed one the best trios I've ever seen. They were scoring goals, and when they weren't, they were assisting them. All three of them, just putting numbers on the boards. But one was above all. Now matured, but still young Vincent Lecavalier set the league on fire. If I remember correctly, Vinny's rating in the EA Sports NHL 2004 was as high as 95. That's pretty high, my mans. And a clear sign of dominance. He truly was one the best. Magnificent. A beast. THE God among hockey players. And a handsome devil, if I may add.

Jamie Benn on the other hand. Is he the product of Tyler Seguin's excellence? I mean, look at the man. He's fat. He gets mad easily. He can't even knock out George Parros, and Parros doesn't even play anymore due to brain damage caused by fighting against real agitators. Hell, he can't even knock out George Parros II, and George Parros II is like 6-years old! To me, Jamie Benn is a guy who tries it all, but can't do anything well. And his rating in the EA Sports NHL -series has been declining for three years straight now.

Well, pretty hard to come up with solid arguments after what I just told y'all. Lecavalier is superior in every way. Benn is just a former fat 5th round pick, who is still fat. Case closed, go home everybody.

this was a disappointing read

 

[Tarantula]

Well how do you define it then? What do you define as a peak?

Peak would be defined as the best consecutive year(s), not based on a certain time frame but by quality, regardless of duration. Some players have a peak of multi years, some had a one year peak, and for some it might be a handful of games. How significant a player's peak is considered is usually based more on longevity however. That is a different discussion where as peak is put into relative context.

 

[VanIslander]

I have refrained from commenting because I've thought both players overrated.

(Hard to do in southern small markets like Tampa and Dallas, yet it has been so, imo.)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i used to be really high on jamie benn but when all is said and done, is he basically markus naslund + one great best on best tournament?

and lecavalier... accomplishments-wise, bertuzzi with a cup?

 

[psycat]

Sure, why not? I don't think it would be crazy to suggest that Sidney Crosby's peak level of play came in one of the partial seasons he played between 2010 and 2013, the highest P/G of which he achieved in only 22 games. And you could argue that said 22 game season wasn't just a hot streak because plenty of people thought Sid was capable of scoring at a 140 point pace, and that having concussion symptoms flare up is not the same as going cold. So if the question is "at what point was Crosby's level of play the highest", you could go with those 22 games, or you could make the argument that he went through similarly hot stretches at other times and usually ended up with somewhat lower totals when he played full seasons. Neither of which is declaring an arbitrary cutoff number.

Now, if you wanted to do a statistical survey that represented peak scoring (say a 3-year VsX), an arbitrary cutoff would be necessary. Not so much if you're discussing an abstract concept.

But who's best? 22 games peak Crosby, Toews peaking in intangibles or first shot Pettersson?

 

[Felidae]

Close, but I think Benn is decisively better. His best season competes with peak Lecavelier while having more elite seasons that are of comparable level to their peaks (Top 10 goal scoring and point finishes in this case)

Here's how they compare.

Benn

Points

2013-14 NHL 79 (8th)

2014-15 NHL 87 (1st)

2015-16 NHL 89 (2nd)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PPG

2014-15 NHL 1.06 (3rd)

2015-16 NHL 1.09 (2nd)

2018-19 NHL 2.00 (6th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals

2013-14 NHL 34 (9th)

2014-15 NHL 35 (9th)

2015-16 NHL 41 (3rd)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

GPG
2015-16 NHL 0.50 (3rd)

2 AS-1
1 AS-2

2013-14: Bested Ovechkin who finished 8th in points and 1st in goals
2014-15: Second to Ovechkin who finished 4th in points and 1st in goals
2015-16: Beat Ovechkin, lead the league in scoring


Hart finishes: 3, 12, 12, 22

2015-15: 42% of votes, behind Crosby and Kane

Selke finishes: 45


Teammate scoring during best seasons

2013-14
2nd in points(3 less) and goals (5 less) behind Seguin

2014-15
10 points ahead of Seguin for most points
2 goals behind Seguin for 2nd place

2015-16
16 points and 8 goals ahead Seguin




Vincent Lecavelier

Points

2006-07 NHL 108 (3rd)

2007-08 NHL 92 (6th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PPG
2006-07 NHL 1.32 (4th)

Goals

2006-07 NHL 52 (1st)

2007-08 NHL 40 (9th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

GPG

2006-07 NHL 0.63 (1st)

2007-08 NHL 0.49 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

AS-1: Finished behind Ovechkin who finished 4th in scoring

Hart finishes: 4, 17

2006-07
23% of votes, finished behind Crosby, Luongo and Brodeur

Selke finishes: 41

Teammate scoring during best seasons

2006-07
6 points and 9 goals ahead of St Louis for most points and goals

2007-08
9 points and 15 goals ahead St Louis for most points and goals

 

[daver]

Benn for me, too. He is still going strong, as well.
Vinnie’s big year came during one of the two outlier years when they called stick infractions more closely.... admittedly he did also lead the league in even strength goals that year, but scoring was up overall.

I don't get your point. Is leading in goals or scoring when overall scoring is down somehow better? Every player had the same chance as Vinny to score in 06/07 the same as every player had the same chance as Benn did in 14/15.

 

[sr edler]

i used to be really high on jamie benn but when all is said and done, is he basically markus naslund + one great best on best tournament?

and lecavalier... accomplishments-wise, bertuzzi with a cup?

I actually thought about Näslund too (perhaps we do too much, us poor unfortunate souls) but in regards to Lecavalier since both were slow starters despite high draft pedigree, both made a disappointing showing at the Olympics when they got the chance to be the guy, and both were cheap shotted at the end of their respective peaks.

 

[Laineux]

I'm not sure if Lecavalier's peak season is somehow in a different level than Jamie Benn's 14-15 and 15-16. Here are their respective gaps over the #10, #20 and #50 scorers in their peak season(s).

Jamie Benn

14-15
#10 19%
#20 26%
#50 45%
15/16
#10 16%
#20 33%
#50 59%

Vincent Lecavalier
06/07
#10 14%
#20 29%
#50 59%

That seems awfully close to me, and Benn did it in consecutive years. 108 points sounds like a lot, but you need to put the raw numbers into context. PPs were at a historically high level when Lecavalier had his peak while PPs were at a historically low level during Benn's peak, which makes a huge effect on scoring numbers for players that get 1st powerplay minutes.

 

[Troubadour]

Well, if awards were given for calendar years instead of seasons, it's not like the 2007 one couldn't have gone to Vinny:



And here is the link to the point calculator:

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Laineux]

Well, if awards were given for calendar years instead of seasons, it's not like the 2007 one couldn't have gone to Vinny:

How about Benn for 2015? During the calendar year, he was much further ahead of his peers than Lecavalier in 2007.

 

[Troubadour]

How about Benn for 2015? During the calendar year, he was much further ahead of his peers than Lecavalier in 2007.

View attachment 144525

Depends on how you look at it. If you concede that Ovechkin may have been a better player in 2007 than he was in 2015 and check how he fared against the crop that Lecavalier topped in 2007, Jamie's calendar year suddenly smells sorta funny. All the more if we take the 2007 Sedins for reference:

 

[authentic]

I believe Lecavalier was the more talented player, however Benn at his best has been better defensively despite being a winger and better in the playoffs, and neither has clearly better offense than the other. He is a bit underrated now I think.

 

[Laineux]

Depends on how you look at it. If you concede that Ovechkin may have been a better player in 2007 than he was in 2015 and check how he fared against the crop that Lecavalier topped in 2007, Jamie's calendar year suddenly smells sorta funny. All the more if we take the 2007 Sedins for reference:

Yes, they were having better calender years in 2015 than in 2007. I hate that kind of logic, by the way.

Here is the calender year of 2006. Surely you would think that Ovechkin didn't regress from age 20 to age 21, so his calender year in 2007 shouldn't be any worse. Can we deduct from the much bigger margin Lecavalier was beating Ovechkin in 2007 something about his relation to Crosby in 2006?

Another snippit: Martin St.Louis in 2006

Martin St.Louis in 2013

Surely St.Louis couldn't have been better as a 37-38 year old than 30-31 year old...? Scoring must've been at least as hard in 2006?

 

[Troubadour]

Yes, they were having better calender years in 2015 than in 2007. I hate that kind of logic, by the way.

Here is the calender year of 2006. Surely you would think that Ovechkin didn't regress from age 20 to age 21, so his calender year in 2007 shouldn't be any worse. Can we deduct from the much bigger margin Lecavalier was beating Ovechkin in 2007 something about his relation to Crosby in 2006?
View attachment 144527


Another snippit: Martin St.Louis in 2006
View attachment 144529
Martin St.Louis in 2013
View attachment 144531

Surely St.Louis couldn't have been better as a 37-38 year old than 30-31 year old...? Scoring must've been at least as hard in 2006?

You might hate that logic, but Ovechkin's and Sedins' numbers from 2015 look remarkably similar to their numbers from 2007. Thus they provide a much more stable reference than Marty St. Louis, who's a widely recognized aberration you just red-herringed a tiny bit in here.

Even without them anyway, just sizing up the top ten in scoring from those respective years, Benn looks like a typical gap champ, whereas Lecavalier was going against the peak or near-peak Crosby, peak or near-peak Thornton, the Pizza Line, etc.

What I'm saying is that Vinny was a candidate for the best player in the world when there was a top-notch scrum of all age groups competing for it. In comparison, Jaime had to deal with tumbleweed rolling through deserted streets (exaggeration to illustrate my opinion).

 

[Laineux]

You might hate that logic, but Ovechkin's and Sedins' numbers from 2015 look remarkably similar to their numbers from 2007. Thus they provide a much more stable reference than Marty St. Louis, who's a widely recognized aberration you just red-herringed a tiny bit in here.

I'd argue that Sedin's are almost as much of an aberration as St.Louis. And Marty was already in his prime here, right following his 1st Art Ross.

Ovechkin is widely considered to have been better when he was younger because of his 05/06, and particularly 07-10 seasons. His calender year of 2007 is really an outlier when you compare it to all of his other calender years in that stretch - it was his worst season in that timeframe by far.

Even without them anyway, just sizing up the top ten in scoring from those respective years, Benn looks like a typical gap champ, whereas Lecavalier was going against the peak or near-peak Crosby, peak or near-peak Thornton, the Pizza Line, etc.

What I'm saying is that Vinny was a candidate for the best player in the world when there was a top-notch scrum of all age groups competing for it. In comparison, Jaime had to deal with tumbleweed rolling through deserted streets (exaggeration to illustrate my opinion).

Oh, I don't disagree that Lecavalier had tougher competition and that there was maybe a lull of top end talent in 14-16. Even accounting for that, I see them as very comparable, which I said in my original post.

 

[Dingo]

I don't get your point. Is leading in goals or scoring when overall scoring is down somehow better? Every player had the same chance as Vinny to score in 06/07 the same as every player had the same chance as Benn did in 14/15.

I mean that a large part of the reason scoring was up those two years was due to number of powerplays. Some guys feast on powerplys and aren’t necessarily dominant otherwise. Lecavalier’s spike year would suggest that he took advantage of powerplays that year, and then had an otherwise ‘good’ career. He lead the league in even strength goals, though, which makes that whole theory look like a coincidence, even though his season numbers are probably still inflated a bit that year.
Did he play on a line with MSL that year? I think he did, and that that probably helped as much as anything.

 

[Troubadour]

I'd argue that Sedin's are almost as much of an aberration as St.Louis. And Marty was already in his prime here, right following his 1st Art Ross.

Ovechkin is widely considered to have been better when he was younger because of his 05/06, and particularly 07-10 seasons. His calender year of 2007 is really an outlier when you compare it to all of his other calender years in that stretch - it was his worst season in that timeframe by far.

Oh, I don't disagree that Lecavalier had tougher competition and that there was maybe a lull of top end talent in 14-16. Even accounting for that, I see them as very comparable, which I said in my original post.

That's true. Ovi had a mini-slup between his rookie year and his monster reign that ended in spring 2008, but I still think he was better than in 2015. You're probably right the Sedins were comparable to Marty as far as longevity and (in)consistence go, but I don't think they had as much of a roller-coaster ride that would make them as useleful as Marty for debunking my reference myth which stands on three pillars

Well, my post was originally aiming at everyone who may have forgotten that Lecavalier did have a nice sharp peak there, kinda hidden within a two-season run. Not saying they're incomparable or even that he was better than Benn, just more impressive to my eyes.

 

[Sensinitis]

I always like to bring up playoffs...so here I go

Remembering playoff Lecavalier...there were some great moments, for sure, like the assist on Fedotenko’s goal in game 7 of the finals (Flames fans might say that game should never have happened). But in general Vinnie reminds me of Jumbo Joe in terms of playoff performance. A bit underwhelming overall. I know he won world cup MVP, but I actually re-watched some tape of the Finland game...The Sakic/Lemieux tandem were clearly a step above the rest of the team.

I think Jamie Benn’s been a better performer on the big stages. Olympics, he wasn’t even invited to camp...then went on to outplay a guy like Getzlaf (imo). There were a lot of great forwards on that team but he definitely stood out as a key contributor.

In the playoffs with Seguin out, he was really good. And i think he has more good stuff to show, and will have more opportunity as they’re building something interesting over there in Dallas. Watching Stars game, you can tell he’s the best player even if surrounded by a few other star players, kind of like Vinnie in a way, except Vinnie seemed to be somewhat behind StLouis, and even Richards back in 04 playoffs.

 

[GlitchMarner]

In the playoffs with Seguin out, he was really good. And i think he has more good stuff to show, and will have more opportunity as they’re building something interesting over there in Dallas. Watching Stars game, you can tell he’s the best player even if surrounded by a few other star players, kind of like Vinnie in a way, except Vinnie seemed to be somewhat behind StLouis, and even Richards back in 04 playoffs.

Richards was quite a lot better than Lecavalier in the playoffs the year the Lightning won the Cup.

NHL.com - Stats

Richards led all forwards in TOI (23:28 TOI per game) in those playoffs. Lecavalier averaged 19:39 TOI per game.

Richards: 12 goals, 26 points, +5

Lecavalier: 9 goals, 16 points, -2

Vinny was basically a nice 2C in that run.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

A peak should be at least 3 years min in my eyes.

You’re thinking of prime. Typically 3-5 years for most players. Peak can be just one season.

 

[psycat]

You’re thinking of prime. Typically 3-5 years for most players. Peak can be just one season.

Tell that to 20 games peak Crosby.

 

[The Panther]

You’re thinking of prime. Typically 3-5 years for most players. Peak can be just one season.

I don't think peak can be just one season. Otherwise, why not just call it "best season"? You have to show that you can maintain it beyond one year, or it's just a trivial outlier (see: Jacques Richard).

I personally would break it down something like this:
- Season (self-explanatory)
- Peak (two to four seasons in a row, more or less)
- Prime (five to ten seasons)
- Career (entirety of games played, but with considerably less emphasis on player's post-prime years)

 

[sr edler]

You have to show that you can maintain it beyond one year, or it's just a trivial outlier (see: Jacques Richard).

If it’s really an outlier or not depends a lot on the context of the season, i.e. usage (ice time) in relation to other seasons, linemates, if you got Cheechoo’d by someone, etc..

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lecavalier

His peak level is underrated, he was burning the league while bringing intangibles, then had some injuries which slowed him down.

He has the playoffs heroics.

It's close but Vinny takes it for now.