Jake Virtanen Part X: WJC 2016 RIP

[Pip]

Virtanen's skillset rarely comes along. Name some recent draft picks who can match Virtanen's size, skills, physical game, skating, shot, and draft year offensive production? It's not easy to acquire top 6 power forwards. Steve Bernier? Taylor Pyatt? Brad Isbister? Remember those guys? Zach Kassian cost us Hodgson. Any chance of getting Wayne Simmonds?

Granted, Virtanen wasn't exactly my pick for #6 but it is a reasonable one.

Tom Wilson

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Tom Wilson

He's not nearly as explosive...

 

[banme*]

Virtanen's skillset rarely comes along. Name some recent draft picks who can match Virtanen's size, skills, physical game, skating, shot, and draft year offensive production? It's not easy to acquire top 6 power forwards. Steve Bernier? Taylor Pyatt? Brad Isbister? Remember those guys? Zach Kassian cost us Hodgson. Any chance of getting Wayne Simmonds?

Granted, Virtanen wasn't exactly my pick for #6 but it is a reasonable one.

Tom Wilson

Nice one!

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Lol, people completely miss the point here.
When I said we need to be more physical, I disn't mean small players can't succeed.
Size isn't an issue if you can raise your game and intensity during the playoffs.
But in the last 3 playoff series, we saw how soft we are. Many players could not raise their game in the playoffs and even tried to avoid physical game. That's what I call softness.
Remember when Virtanen decided to fought Farham cause he won't take **** from other? I still can't believe fans hate his decision of stepping up for himself

 

[Pip]

Lol, people completely miss the point here.
When I said we need to be more physical, I disn't mean small players can't succeed.
Size isn't an issue if you can raise your game and intensity during the playoffs.
But in the last 3 playoff series, we saw how soft we are. Many players could not raise their game in the playoffs and even tried to avoid physical game. That's what I call softness.
Remember when Virtanen decided to fought Farham cause he won't take **** from other? I still can't believe fans hate his decision of stepping up for himself

Fighting Farham will make him a good playoff player?

 

[Cupless44]

A. Your argument is ridiculous.

B. My team full of gaudreaus, kanes, zuccarellos, parises will ****ing destroy your team of john scotts, mackenze stewarts, martin hanzals and brian boyles.

Wanting a bigger, physical hockey team does not mean Scotts or Stewarts. Big reach, nice try. Given a choice between skill in a small body or skill in big body give me the bigger skilled player.

No better example than the 2016 draft. Lots of skill in big packages. Give me Dubois over Keller. You think Matthews would be #1 overall if he was 5'9" and 170? No interest in a big, skilled payer like Laine? Would Chycrun be coveted so high if he was 180 at defence?

No one is suggesting that there isnt a place for smaller skilled players in the NHL but for every small high scoring junior that makes it, there are many who don't. Size is still a factor in the NHL..getting to the net, clearing the front of the net, winning board battles. To suggest size is not a factor is not reality.

 

[F A N]

Tom Wilson

Please read my post and then reply.

 

[Pip]

Please read my post and then reply.

My mistake. Missed that you specified only draft year production. Still think the comparison is pretty close.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Yup, players like Patrick Kane never lead the league in scoring, or win multiple cups. You're right again! How do you keep doing that?!

T-e-a-m. Look it up.

 

[mathonwy]

Did you just try to prove your point by pointing out that Seabrook, a huge guy, got levelled by Torres? How about that time Horton got knocked out by Aaron Rome? David Booth is about the same size as Virtanen and he missed a ton of time in his career. Virtanen himself has already had a shoulder injury and missed significant time.

I don't even have words for how dumb this argument is.

Wow....

I think people need some help with their reading comprehension.

You don't even know what my argument is but please.. keep telling me how dumb "it" is.

And the clip I posted... was in response to another poster. But keep jumping to conclusions though.

 

[Tiranis]

Wow....

I think people need some help with their reading comprehension.

You don't even know what my argument is but please.. keep telling me how dumb "it" is.

And the clip I posted... was in response to another poster. But keep jumping to conclusions though.

I know perfectly well what your argument is. It's just hilarious to see you post the Seabrook video shortly after. You've still shown exactly 0 evidence of smaller players being more injury prone than big players. Surely it wouldn't be that hard if you were right.

 

[mathonwy]

I know perfectly well what your argument is. It's just hilarious to see you post the Seabrook video shortly after. You've still shown exactly 0 evidence of smaller players being more injury prone than big players. Surely it wouldn't be that hard if you were right.

Hahahahahah...

You are still missing my point.

Whatevs man. If you can't debate this like an adult it's not worth my while.

 

[Tiranis]

It's your problem if you can't express yourself clearly, not mine.

And durability has correlation to the physical size of the player.

Ehlers at 6'0, 172lbs is probably not as durable as Virtanen at 6'1, 208lbs.

 

[groov2]

How has this thread magically turned into an Ehlers vs Virtanen thread again?

 

[Tiranis]

How has this thread magically turned into an Ehlers vs Virtanen thread again?

It hasn't.

 

[Cupless44]

How has this thread magically turned into an Ehlers vs Virtanen thread again?

Because the same posters, after almost 2 years, just cant get over it that we didnt draft Ehlers and have to talk about it add nauseum. You knew it was coming after the hatrick. We got somewhat of a break from it when Ehlers didnt score for 20 games.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

I don't understand how someone can be trumpeting Virtanen's durability given his injury history.

 

[Gaunce4gm]

I think this has a lot to do with McCann and Baertschi.

Let's say McCann peaks at 6'0 190
Baertschi is 5'11" 190

Bo is 6'0 205
Boeser 6'1 200

There's 4 future top 6 players for us moving forward
A line with Ehlers and Baertschi or McCann is really small all of a sudden and although size isn't everything the difference between adding a PWF big bodied player in Virtanen vs smaller Skill player in Ehlers makes your top six go from "Small and soft" to pretty average.

I agree always pick BPA and I'm not saying virtanen > ehlers or vice versa I'm saying a player of virtanens STYLE was what we were missing so from a filling a need perspective they did quite well I think.

 

[Tiranis]

I think this has a lot to do with McCann and Baertschi.

Let's say McCann peaks at 6'0 190
Baertschi is 5'11" 190

Bo is 6'0 205
Boeser 6'1 200

There's 4 future top 6 players for us moving forward
A line with Ehlers and Baertschi or McCann is really small all of a sudden and although size isn't everything the difference between adding a PWF big bodied player in Virtanen vs smaller Skill player in Ehlers makes your top six go from "Small and soft" to pretty average.

I agree always pick BPA and I'm not saying virtanen > ehlers or vice versa I'm saying a player of virtanens STYLE was what we were missing so from a filling a need perspective they did quite well I think.

But we have absolutely no idea what's going to happen or who we will draft before Virtanen is even ready for a top 6 role, if he ever even becomes good enough for it. That's why you draft BPA and sort it out later.

Another average sized center is absolutely not what the Red Wings needed the most but they still took Larkin and it paid off.

---

Anyway, I think the most intriguing thing about Virtanen is his ability to carry the puck through the neutral zone, I couldn't care less if he's physical or not. The problem is that coaches and GMs in the NHL seem to highly undervalue this skill (like they did with Kassian). I have some concern that eventually it's something that will be coached out of him in favour of chip & chase so he can get in and bang away at the defensemen.

 

[Gaunce4gm]

A good coach will realize that each of the 4 lines will need to enter the zone differently though. We can hope Travis Green will be the coach and will allow and encourage virtanen to enter the zone with the puck on his stick. I think a line like Bae Bo Virt would work well with a carry in approach as opposed to a Dorsett Cracknell Prust line where you just cross your fingers and hope they get the puck in deep maybe bang around for a few seconds and get off the ice

 

[tc 23]

You guys really have it out for Jake eh?

So sad.

It's not having it out for Jake. At this point in time, Jake is a Vancouver Canuck, for better or for worse. I'm confident that virtually every poster here is cheering for Jake to become the best player he can possibly be. The issue is that people are using some flimsy (and, quite frankly, occasionally ridiculous) arguments to rationalize having players like Jake over other players who are arguably better. In a vacuum, if two players are equal in every aspect except size, it's pretty clear that the player who's bigger is preferable, but the players Jake is being compared to in this thread are not of equal skill and ability.

No one's saying that Jake isn't a rare package of tools or that players with such a rare package of tools don't have some inherent value. People are arguing that we shouldn't tunnel vision on and/or obsess so hard over size and strength to the point that you outright dismiss another player simply because they don't hit often or aren't behemoths.

Regardless of size, the players who make it to this level can all take a hit or avoid hits well enough. If they couldn't, they wouldn't have made it to this level.

 

[Love]

I think this has a lot to do with McCann and Baertschi.

Let's say McCann peaks at 6'0 190
Baertschi is 5'11" 190

Bo is 6'0 205
Boeser 6'1 200

There's 4 future top 6 players for us moving forward
A line with Ehlers and Baertschi or McCann is really small all of a sudden and although size isn't everything the difference between adding a PWF big bodied player in Virtanen vs smaller Skill player in Ehlers makes your top six go from "Small and soft" to pretty average.

I agree always pick BPA and I'm not saying virtanen > ehlers or vice versa I'm saying a player of virtanens STYLE was what we were missing so from a filling a need perspective they did quite well I think.

Bo 205? Maybe at age 17. Closer to 220 right now.

His weight at the draft combine was 211 FYI.

 

[Ho Borvat]

No one's saying that Jake isn't a rare package of tools or that players with such a rare package of tools don't have some inherent value. People are arguing that we shouldn't tunnel vision on and/or obsess so hard over size and strength to the point that you outright dismiss another player simply because they don't hit often or aren't behemoths.

Regardless of size, the players who make it to this level can all take a hit or avoid hits well enough. If they couldn't, they wouldn't have made it to this level.

I think where I have trouble with the Virtanen pick, is he seems like the type of player you would value after you've acquired some elite skill players.

Most posters probably agree, JV projects as more of a middle-6 support player who plays an exciting, physical brand of hockey. Every team wants players like this, but its not really a player you build around.

The problem is, we're probably 5-6 years of rebuilding away from being a competitive team again. I think JV is a player you prioritize after you've acquired some elite-franchise building talent.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Way over. Closing this up. Please continue to the newly created Virtanen thread here:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2020619