Injury Report: Jake Muzzin - broken hand - out ~4 weeks

[BlueForever75]

If we can get Reilly, Muzzin and YES Ceci back I would be very happy. The Leafs may have found something with this 7 defensemen playing every night. It causes mismatches for oppositions when we play our 4th line cause one of Marner, Matthews, Nylander or Tavares can play there. I also like the fact that our D looks more rested and fresh. Play the D based on the game and situations. Play Muzzin, Holl and Ceci in PK roles, play Reilly, Barrie and Sandin in PP roles. Depending on type of game you play others more and others less. If its a blowout either way, you give less minutes to Muzzin, Reilly and Barrie. Rest them up and protect their health.

Reilly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci
Sandin

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You know that the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful data from those numbers. Liljegren has 9 games, and most barely any ice time. Not to mention Sandin is an offensive D so possession and goals will favor him over Liljegren who is first back. I don't need these numbers to see Sandin getting beat repeatedly defensively.

I am not even trying to take a side. Just calling it out as I see it. Sandin is the golden boy and can do no wrong on here. It's Marner vs Nylander all over again.

You are trying to take the side that Sandin is the Leafs worst defensive player and offers nothing offensively, and that Liljegren is a better player. and now you are saying the sample is too small because reality is different from your opinion

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Sandin without Liljegren: 54.6 cf% | 50.4 xgf%
Liljegren without Sandin: 33.3 cf% | 40 xgf%

Sandin is miles better, and does perfectly fine all on his own. Liljegren gets demolished. Also 8 points in 26 games is way better than 1 point in 9 games, so not sure why you're criticizing Sandin's offense

Why are you guys bashing our kiddie corp? We got 3 kids in Dermy, Sandin and Lily who are developing nicely. Not all will be linear. Some may be exponential. No one knows. No one really even has a clue. But we got 3 solid prospects here. They are all learning da game. We need to keep all of them and help them develop individually. Lets hope they all can develop into top pairing guys over time. It is ridiculous to even contemplate where each may end up. They will each develop and get to where they deserve to be. Dermy may win the Norris in 3 years who knows? Sandin may play on #1 pair next year who knows? Lily may be Reilly's partner next year who knows? I would say each scenario is unlikely but one guy may get exponential growth over summer. It does happen.

 

[Merrrlin]

You are trying to take the side that Sandin is the Leafs worst defensive player and offers nothing offensively, and that Liljegren is a better player. and now you are saying the sample is too small because reality is different from your opinion

Since Jan 1st^

Sandin has been alright, not great but fine as a 3rd pairing defender. I've especially liked his last few games away from Liljegren.

Liljegren, unfortunately, has been the worst of our 5 "depth" guys during this tough spell.

Big dick Marincin sitting there with a paltry 2.21 xGA/60 and a wonderful 60%xGF.

To put Marincin's numbers into perspective....

lol

 

[Kamiccolo]

You are trying to take the side that Sandin is the Leafs worst defensive player and offers nothing offensively, and that Liljegren is a better player. and now you are saying the sample is too small because reality is different from your opinion

No, I am saying that those who are roasting Liljegren are turning a blind eye to the fact Sandin hasn't been any better defensively and is not scoring after his first few games so what is he bringing to the table that Lillly doesn't, because lately it's nothing.

For example look at the last two games played. Liljegren was -2 and Sandin last game was -2. But stats don't tell the whole story. One goal, Liljegren was the only man back on the 2 on 1 and he played the pass who scored on the rebound Freddy gave up. 2nd goal he had the guy at the halfwall and Freddy let in a butter soft goal.

Now look at Sandin vs Van.



Sandin goes behind the net, gets physically bumped off the puck, looks around confused, and his man gets an easy tap in while he is a step behind.



2nd goal, Sandin beat cleanly infront of his own net for an easy goal.

But he got a secondary assist later on so I guess that makes up for it.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

No, I am saying that those who are roasting Liljegren are turning a blind eye to the fact Sandin hasn't been any better defensively and is not scoring after his first few games so what is he bringing to the table that Lillly doesn't, because lately it's nothing.

For example look at the last two games played. Liljegren was -2 and Sandin last game was -2. But stats don't tell the whole story. One goal, Liljegren was the only man back on the 2 on 1 and he played the pass who scored on the rebound Freddy gave up. 2nd goal he had the guy at the halfwall and Freddy let in a butter soft goal.

Now look at Sandin vs Van.



Sandin goes behind the net, gets physically bumped off the puck, looks around confused, and his man gets an easy tap in while he is a step behind.



2nd goal, Sandin beat cleanly infront of his own net for an easy goal.

But he got a secondary assist later on so I guess that makes up for it.

so two goals against for each player is a big enough sample when it comes to your argument, but their entire NHL track records are too small because it demonstrates the opposite. Got it, thanks

 

[Kamiccolo]

so two goals against for each player is a big enough sample when it comes to your argument, but their entire NHL track records are too small because it demonstrates the opposite. Got it, thanks

I feel like at this point you are purposefully trying to miss my point. I'm demonstrating that small sample sizes can show the same result but the eye test shows that the quality of chances against are higher against Sandin and lower for Liljegren but Liljegren has gotten worse puck luck.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I feel like at this point you are purposefully trying to miss my point. I'm demonstrating that small sample sizes can show the same result but the eye test shows that the quality of chances against are higher against Sandin and lower for Liljegren but Liljegren has gotten worse puck luck.

well as I showed you, your eye test is wrong. Sandin's underlying numbers are better

 

[crump]

These guys are young, they will make mistakes. They are still the best option right now. You can argue Dubas could have got a depth D in addition to Rosen (someone with more experience) but in reality there might not be much between them and a 6/7 guy from another team.

Sandin and Lily will have tough moments, so far we have played around them. Their only going to get better and the gaffs will reduce.

 

[Kamiccolo]

well as I showed you, your eye test is wrong. Sandin's underlying numbers are better

Me

"With such a small sample size there isn't enough time to flush out underlying real numbers to show real impact. There's too much statistical noise"

*Shows you a perfect example of two unlucky goals vs two clearly beaten goals with the point that in spreadsheets they wash out the same way*

You:

"Underlying numbers say you're wrong"

You don't see your broken logic? What would your response be if Matthews had horrific underling numbers in 9 games, you'd point out that his career numbers are much better and that given a bigger sample size they'll improve. So why the hesitation to do the same here?

You're underlying numbers without any context tell you Sandin is just as good as Muzzin and Rielly which is nonsense.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Me

"With such a small sample size there isn't enough time to flush out underlying real numbers to show real impact. There's too much statistical noise"

*Shows you a perfect example of two unlucky goals vs two clearly beaten goals with the point that in spreadsheets they wash out the same way*

You:

"Underlying numbers say you're wrong"

You don't see your broken logic? What would your response be if Matthews had horrific underling numbers in 9 games, you'd point out that his career numbers are much better and that given a bigger sample size they'll improve. So why the hesitation to do the same here?

You're underlying numbers without any context tell you Sandin is just as good as Muzzin and Rielly which is nonsense.

I wasn't even talking about goals against, so I'm not sure why you thought that example was necessary. Obviously Muzzin and Rielly play against tougher competition so there's not a good comparison to be made, but Sandin and Liljegren both play on the bottom pairing. The only reason Liljegren's are so much worse is because his performance has been worse.

The broken logic I am seeing is you insisting that Sandin is worse based on their performances so far, and then claiming we aren't allowed to look at their performances when you're shown evidence to the contrary. I wasn't trying to say the sample is extremely meaningful or anything, but that the sample we do have at least demonstrates who has played better

 

[Kamiccolo]

I wasn't even talking about goals against, so I'm not sure why you thought that example was necessary. Obviously Muzzin and Rielly play against tougher competition so there's not a good comparison to be made, but Sandin and Liljegren both play on the bottom pairing. The only reason Liljegren's are so much worse is because his performance has been worse.

The broken logic I am seeing is you insisting that Sandin is worse based on their performances so far, and then claiming we aren't allowed to look at their performances when you're shown evidence to the contrary. I wasn't trying to say the sample is extremely meaningful or anything, but that the sample we do have at least demonstrates who has played better

Seems the coach sides with me on this one

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Seems the coach sides with me on this one

You said you weren't taking a side, but I guess you'll say anything to avoid having to defend your ridiculous opinions. Why did you even argue with me at all when Keefe kept Sandin in against Vancouver and benched Liljegren if his lineup decisions automatically prove which player is superior? I hope you'll stay this consistent when it happens again, but I doubt it

 

[Kamiccolo]

You said you weren't taking a side, but I guess you'll say anything to avoid having to defend your ridiculous opinions. Why did you even argue with me at all when Keefe kept Sandin in against Vancouver and benched Liljegren if his lineup decisions automatically prove which player is superior? I hope you'll stay this consistent when it happens again, but I doubt it

I'm not taking a side. If the situations were reversed I would be saying to give Sandin a chance because Lilly hasn't been any better.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Seems the coach sides with me on this one

No, Keefe said it's just for rest, because he's a rookie.

 

[Kamiccolo]

No, Keefe said it's just for rest, because he's a rookie.

Right because he's going to come out to the media and say it's cause he's been sucking.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Right because he's going to come out to the media and say it's cause he's been sucking.

You claimed that Keefe agreed with you. He did not at any point do that; quite the opposite.

 

[tom leafers]

only three more weeks till muzzins back!

 

[stickty111]

You know that the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful data from those numbers. Liljegren has 9 games, and most barely any ice time. Not to mention Sandin is an offensive D so possession and goals will favor him over Liljegren who is first back. I don't need these numbers to see Sandin getting beat repeatedly defensively.

I am not even trying to take a side. Just calling it out as I see it. Sandin is the golden boy and can do no wrong on here. It's Marner vs Nylander all over again.

I have noticed that as well. Keefe removing Sandin from the lineup for today's game might indicate neither of Sandin or Lilly have outplayed each other.

 

[stickty111]

Sandin's underlying numbers are misleading. No one can tell me with a straight face Sandin has been better then Lilly defensively. Sandin has been walked twice leading to goals, and was a cause for the 2 goals against in the Vancouver game. Keefe switched up the Barrie-Sandin pairing after that, and Sandin got sent to 3rd pair duty with Rosen.

 

[ULF_55]

Sandin's underlying numbers are misleading. No one can tell me with a straight face Sandin has been better then Lilly defensively. Sandin has been walked twice leading to goals, and was a cause for the 2 goals against in the Vancouver game. Keefe switched up the Barrie-Sandin pairing after that, and Sandin got sent to 3rd pair duty with Rosen.

I place as much blame on Barrie for the one goal, as the puck was on his side of the ice, he coasted back watching. I can only speculate why he was in no rush to get to the boards to retrieve the puck.

We know Sandin is just a teenager, still learning the game and will make mistakes. He isn't a 28 year old veteran.

Remember the atrocious goal Andersen let and and some jumped on Liljegren for it? Liljegren played it fine, kept the player to a non scoring position, and so he just threw the puck at the net and Andersen flubbed it.

You need goaltenders to make some tough save, you need the veterans to lead, you expect rookies to have growing pains.

 

[saltming]

Holy hannibal's handrails!
I actually got sidetracked and thought this was the Lilegren thread with all this chatter

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Sandin's underlying numbers are misleading. No one can tell me with a straight face Sandin has been better then Lilly defensively. Sandin has been walked twice leading to goals, and was a cause for the 2 goals against in the Vancouver game. Keefe switched up the Barrie-Sandin pairing after that, and Sandin got sent to 3rd pair duty with Rosen.

Really everyone who plays with Barrie has sh*t defesnive numbers. And if you don't know why by watching the games well there is not much anyone can say. Do you remember when some morons on here thought Dermy was cr*p. Well guess what he played with Barrie during that time. No one can play effective defense with that guy. Maybe oddball Marty for some god knows reason. This is why these numbers mean didly to me. Anyone who tells me Marty is an NHL defender all I can do now is laugh. Marty gets pressured at all and he loses da puck every time. Barrie gets scared when anyone comes after him hard. When he decides to man up which happens every now and again he is effective.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Any updates?

 

[DarkKnight]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Muzzin. Too funny.