Injury Report: Jake Muzzin - broken hand - out ~4 weeks

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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A month, which we knew before the TDL
Both Rielly and Ceci were supposed to be mid-march. You can't prepare for a defenseman going down every single game, much less the one defenseman that is most difficult to replace. There's only so much that it's reasonable to protect against.
If you can disprove I'm correct go for it but I feel pretty good about it right now
Lol. Interesting way of making claims.
We didn't foresee injuries or our lack of defensive experience which could be a problem?
We don't have a defensive experience problem when healthy. No, I doubt they expected their best remaining defenseman to go down for the 2nd time this season in the game right after the trade deadline to a completely different fluke injury.
So an actual example of what you wanted doesn't fit now?
It's not an example of what I wanted. They are not comparable situations at all. Shatternkirk was a declining player, he was a player in their biggest area of depth, he was stuck behind their two best defensemen they weren't getting rid of anytime soon, and Washington gave a stupid return for him, when St Louis was more out of it. Also, one example wouldn't make a trend.
We didn't actively try to create a market
You have zero evidence of this.
Can't negotiate a contract
Can't get trades right
Paralyzed when decisions need to be made
Negotiates good contracts.
Makes good trades.
Doesn't panic and make stupid knee-jerk reactions to things.

Sounds like a good GM to me.
 

Kiwi

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The Naki
Both Rielly and Ceci were supposed to be mid-march. You can't prepare for a defenseman going down every single game, much less the one defenseman that is most difficult to replace. There's only so much that it's reasonable to protect against.

Lol. Interesting way of making claims.

We don't have a defensive experience problem when healthy. No, I doubt they expected their best remaining defenseman to go down for the 2nd time this season in the game right after the trade deadline to a completely different fluke injury.

It's not an example of what I wanted. They are not comparable situations at all. Shatternkirk was a declining player, he was a player in their biggest area of depth, he was stuck behind their two best defensemen they weren't getting rid of anytime soon, and Washington gave a stupid return for him, when St Louis was more out of it. Also, one example wouldn't make a trend.

You have zero evidence of this.

Negotiates good contracts.
Makes good trades.
Doesn't panic and make stupid knee-jerk reactions to things.

Sounds like a good GM to me.

So you can't protect for A injury, to anybody? Or realize you have an experience deficit beforehand?

Prove it wrong, you know I'm right, you just don't want to prove management's monumental incompetence

When healthy? We didn't know two of our experienced defenseman were injured at the time? And we had no experience to help cover an injury? another fluke injury? We've got 4 guys on IR and this is unforeseeable? :laugh:

A team that realized they weren't a cup chance and sold so they could put those assets towards the future when they were in a better situation? Yeah just like that

Just his behavior and inability to make a ******* decision on what he wanted to do because of his incompetence

Historically overpay RFA'S
****** up the Kadri trade, our best trade chip so bad we need to do it again this off-season
Couldn't make a decision at the TDL

Teams getting worse, doesn't know what the problem is, inability to make decisions, yeah he's just awesome :laugh:
 

Dekes For Days

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So you can't protect for A injury, to anybody?
They had protections for injury. The quality goes down as you get to #9 on the list, as it does for any team.

The rest has already been addressed in my previous reply.
 

Kiwi

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They had protections for injury. The quality goes down as you get to #9 on the list, as it does for any team.

The rest has already been addressed in my previous reply.

So that stops you from getting somebody with a bit of experience to help out? Since were obviously still trying to make a playoff push
 

Dekes For Days

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So that stops you from getting somebody with a bit of experience to help out?
No, it doesn't prevent it. You could go out and get 15 defensemen if you wanted, just in case 10 go down. Doesn't make it a smart or necessary move.
 

Kiwi

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No, it doesn't prevent it. You could go out and get 15 defensemen if you wanted, just in case 10 go down. Doesn't make it a smart or necessary move.

So the team with multiple defensive injuries already and is pushing for the playoffs doesn't need some experience to help on the backend? :laugh:

Looks pretty smart now doesn't it?
 

LeafsOHLRangers98

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Jun 13, 2017
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They had protections for injury. The quality goes down as you get to #9 on the list, as it does for any team.

The rest has already been addressed in my previous reply.
Exactly. We've had our projected top 6 D play exactly ONE game together this year. And Muzzin got hurt in that game.

Our depth on the back end has been tested as much as anybody.
 

Zizzzzy

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The Leafs just won a huge game, the game time thread is locked, and there's no post-game thread yet.... So I chose this one.

Go Leaf Go!!!!! f*** yeah!!!
 

NewEraGM

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Liljegren is a top prospect. What he has done in the AHL at his age is incredibly impressive.
Just to be clear here, I’m not saying he is not a good prospect...but he is not a top prospect. As in top 10-20 prospect. Sandin? Yes. TL? No. Still a good prospect, just not a top prospect. 3rd year in AHL...plenty of D from his draft are putting up similar play in AHL and many are in NHL.
 

Dekes For Days

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Just to be clear here, I’m not saying he is not a good prospect...but he is not a top prospect. As in top 10-20 prospect. Sandin? Yes. TL? No. Still a good prospect, just not a top prospect. 3rd year in AHL...plenty of D from his draft are putting up similar play in AHL and many are in NHL.
1. If they have a permanent spot in the NHL, they are no longer a prospect. Not sure why you are including those.
2. You keep saying 3rd year in AHL, while ignoring that he started in the AHL 2 years earlier than most. This would be the rookie AHL year for most prospects.
3. No, most defensemen of Liljegren's age are not producing like he is in the AHL, not to mention playing top pairing, all situations, and excelling.

He is definitely a top 10-20 defensive prospect; overall I guess it's subjective, as is what a "top prospect" is. Point is, he is not unreasonable to have as your #9-10 on your defensive depth chart.
 

NewEraGM

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Liljegren is a top prospect. What he has done in the AHL at his age is incredibly impressive.
Even cale fleury has similar stats in his first year and he is no where near being a top prospect...valimaki, brannstrom and Timmins are all better D prospects imo from his draft. Even in 2018 and 2019 draft, I’d consider Bouchard, Dobson, smith, Miller, sandin, romanov, Addison, byram, seider, broberg are clearly superior. And then TL falls into the next tier with like 10 other D prospects (heinola, soderstrom, bjornfot, Bernard-docker, etc)
 

NewEraGM

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1. If they have a permanent spot in the NHL, they are no longer a prospect. Not sure why you are including those.
2. You keep saying 3rd year in AHL, while ignoring that he started in the AHL 2 years earlier than most. This would be the rookie AHL year for most prospects.
3. No, most defensemen of Liljegren's age are not producing like he is in the AHL, not to mention playing top pairing, all situations, and excelling.

He is definitely a top 10-20 defensive prospect; overall I guess it's subjective, as is what a "top prospect" is. Point is, he is not unreasonable to have as your #9-10 on your defensive depth chart.
He’s somewhere between #15-20 D prospect...that is not a top prospect young man....sandin is top 10 quite easily but not TL.
 

Dekes For Days

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Even cale fleury has similar stats in his first year and he is no where near being a top prospect...valimaki, brannstrom and Timmins are all better D prospects imo from his draft. Even in 2018 and 2019 draft, I’d consider Bouchard, Dobson, smith, Miller, sandin, romanov, Addison, byram, seider, broberg are clearly superior. And then TL falls into the next tier with like 10 other D prospects (heinola, soderstrom, bjornfot, Bernard-docker, etc)
I'm not going to bother going through all of your names, but you're hugely underrating Liljegren. Most of those guys aren't on the same level.

For example, let's examine your claim that Fleury has "similar stats"...

Fleury, over his age 20 and 21 season, has played at a 31 point pace in the AHL and a 2 point pace in the NHL.
Liljegren, over just his age 20 season, has played at a 63 point pace in the AHL and a 9 point pace in the NHL.
 

NewEraGM

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I'm not going to bother going through all of your names, but you're hugely underrating Liljegren. Most of those guys aren't on the same level.

For example, let's examine your claim that Fleury has "similar stats"...

Fleury, over his age 20 and 21 season, has played at a 31 point pace in the AHL and a 2 point pace in the NHL.
Liljegren, over just his age 20 season, has played at a 63 point pace in the AHL and a 9 point pace in the NHL.

Fine not fleury then, but all the others. Or at least 10 of them even if I give every toss up to you. Point is: he is not a top D prospect (for me that’s top 5-10 at the position) . You’re being a homer for saying he’s a top D prospect. Everyone outside of leafs fans would agree

again, I’m not saying he’s bad. He is good, just not a top prospect. It’s okay, sont worry about it
 

Dekes For Days

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Fine not fleury then, but all the others.
Let's look at a couple others...

Liljegren, over his age 20 season, has played at a 63 point pace in the AHL and a 9 point pace in the NHL.
Valimaki, over his age 20 season, played at a 57 point pace in the AHL and a 10 point pace in the NHL.
Timmins, over his age 21 season, has played at a 56 point pace in the AHL and a 0 point pace in the NHL.

Considering Liljegren is one of the top and most relied on players in his age group in the AHL for aspects outside of production, not really sure what you're basing your claim on.
You’re being a homer for saying he’s a top D prospect.
No, I'm being truthful. You just threw out a bunch of names and said they're better, with nothing to substantiate that.
 

NewEraGM

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Let's look at a couple others...

Liljegren, over his age 20 season, has played at a 63 point pace in the AHL and a 9 point pace in the NHL.
Valimaki, over his age 20 season, played at a 57 point pace in the AHL and a 10 point pace in the NHL.
Timmins, over his age 21 season, has played at a 56 point pace in the AHL and a 0 point pace in the NHL.

Considering Liljegren is one of the top and most relied on players in his age group in the AHL for aspects outside of production, not really sure what you're basing your claim on.

No, I'm being truthful. You just threw out a bunch of names and said they're better, with nothing to substantiate that.


Lol yes because points are everything...you are a hockeydb nerd who just looks at points.

no chance TL is widely accepted as being a top 5-10 D prospect in the league. The only reason you think that is because you’re a leafs fan. Such a homer
 

Kamiccolo

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Lol yes because points are everything...you are a hockeydb nerd who just looks at points.

no chance TL is widely accepted as being a top 5-10 D prospect in the league. The only reason you think that is because you’re a leafs fan. Such a homer

No offense but since when have the Leafs ever gotten wide acceptance about anything positive? Even when we had Matthews 1st OA a main talking point was how Laine was a better prospect. It took a guy who is about to score 50 goals at 22 to even get acceptance that the Leafs had a top 5 prospect.

And any slight on Lilly can be said to Sandin. At least Lilly is physical and strong. Sandin is weak but tries to play bigger which is encouraging. But both have been beaten defensively, but Sandin has been beaten more. He is our worse defensive player right now and doesn't produce offense.

Yet gets a pass.
 

Dekes For Days

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Lol yes because points are everything...you are a hockeydb nerd who just looks at points.
You are the one that first brought up production, and now suddenly, when you're proven wrong, it doesn't matter. You must have also missed the part where I said:
Considering Liljegren is one of the top and most relied on players in his age group in the AHL for aspects outside of production, not really sure what you're basing your claim on.
Meanwhile, you have thrown a bunch of names out, you have provided zero support or substantiation for why those players are better or even on the same level, and you are now resorting to personal attacks as your claims are proven wrong.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

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No offense but since when have the Leafs ever gotten wide acceptance about anything positive? Even when we had Matthews 1st OA a main talking point was how Laine was a better prospect. It took a guy who is about to score 50 goals at 22 to even get acceptance that the Leafs had a top 5 prospect.

And any slight on Lilly can be said to Sandin. At least Lilly is physical and strong. Sandin is weak but tries to play bigger which is encouraging. But both have been beaten defensively, but Sandin has been beaten more. He is our worse defensive player right now and doesn't produce offense.

Yet gets a pass.
Sandin without Liljegren: 54.6 cf% | 50.4 xgf%
Liljegren without Sandin: 33.3 cf% | 40 xgf%

Sandin is miles better, and does perfectly fine all on his own. Liljegren gets demolished. Also 8 points in 26 games is way better than 1 point in 9 games, so not sure why you're criticizing Sandin's offense
 
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Kamiccolo

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Sandin without Liljegren: 54.6 cf% | 50.4 xgf%
Liljegren without Sandin: 33.3 cf% | 40 xgf%

Sandin is miles better, and does perfectly fine all on his own. Liljegren gets demolished. Also 8 points in 26 games is way better than 1 point in 9 games, so not sure why you're criticizing Sandin's offense

You know that the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful data from those numbers. Liljegren has 9 games, and most barely any ice time. Not to mention Sandin is an offensive D so possession and goals will favor him over Liljegren who is first back. I don't need these numbers to see Sandin getting beat repeatedly defensively.

I am not even trying to take a side. Just calling it out as I see it. Sandin is the golden boy and can do no wrong on here. It's Marner vs Nylander all over again.
 
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