Jake Allen

BleedBlue14

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Allen got some rest and an EV shutout. It's only one game but obviously the problem is not Allen, it's bad coaching.

Thanks for the pick and retained 50% cap.

Against a team that had lost 8 in a row. I’m not so sure you’ve watched the other starts Allen had. Regardless, it’s the same song and dance with Allen in net. We either lose 5-4 or he tosses a gem and only give up 2 goals or less and we get blanked or 1 goal. Somethings gotta give, I’m just not so sure that the fan base can be okay without a change of some sort ( coaching or personnel) within the next week or so. More specifically tomorrow.
 

Bleedred

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I think Allen is terrible, but I also think the bigger issue is Yeo. If this team got Quenneville, I think Allen turns into a top 10 goalie in the league.
No he won't.

He wasn't even all that good when Hitchcock coached there, and Hitchcock has a history of giving goalies career years. Cechmanek, Turek, Esche, all looked good under Hitchcock and looked poor elsewhere. Steve Mason looked like a future star in his rookie season under Hitchcock, then never looked good again until he changed scenery. Brian Elliott hasn't even had an average season yet without Hitchcock. Not before he played for Hitchcock, nor after.

And Jake Allen was a slightly above average backup/1b guy under Hitchcock.

I'm not defending Yeo by the way, just saying that Allen is likely nothing more than an average goalie at the very best.

Would the Blues be a top-10 team in the league with Quenneville/better coaching? Probably. They should be a top 10 teams in the league right now, but their goalie tandem just isn't good enough. If you take away their goalies, they easily have a top 10 roster in the league. But that doesn't mean the goalie would be top 10. Best case scenario is that he's a Martin Jones type that is a starting goalie on a really strong team, but not top 10 in the league.

By the way, in my little project I'm doing, Jake Allen has allowed the second most stoppable goals this year by my count. He's allowed 14, which is one behind Mike Smith. Braden Holtby and Cam Ward are giving him a run for his money right now and trail just behind him at 13. What do all these goalies have in common? None of them have a save percentage better than .900% (Holtby is at .900) on the season. I also have Craig Anderson at 13, but he's faced more shots than any of these other guys, if not more than anyone in the league and I bet he's probably even played more games this season than any other goalie in the league.
 

Bleedred

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Against a team that had lost 8 in a row. I’m not so sure you’ve watched the other starts Allen had. Regardless, it’s the same song and dance with Allen in net. We either lose 5-4 or he tosses a gem and only give up 2 goals or less and we get blanked or 1 goal. Somethings gotta give, I’m just not so sure that the fan base can be okay without a change of some sort ( coaching or personnel) within the next week or so. More specifically tomorrow.
I'm actually warming up to the idea of being okay with trading Cory Schneider for Jake Allen and then just buying out Allen after this year, as he'd be an easier and cheaper buyout to absorb. I believe he only has 2 years left, while Schneider has 3 after this.

The problem is that I'd have to hope that Armstrong and company haven't watched any tape of Schneider over the last 2 years (outside of his 3 starts against Tampa in the playoffs last year) and haven't looked at his save percentage the last two years, to see the colossal dropoff from the preceding years. Or that he's so frustrated with Allen that Schneider looks respectable at this point. I firmly believe Schneider is close to a toe tag on his playing career. At least as far as being good. At the very least, he'll never be good again, at least not consistently or for more than a temporary stretch.

And in the 3 starts he's had this year, he's gotten blown up in 2 of them and sunk the team completely in one of them where the score was close. And he looked like an old, retired, 50+ year old goalie in his last start, with how slow his movements and reactions are and how off they were. So if I'm a Blues fan, I don't want him either. It has been proposed before though.

I'd only do it to buyout Allen after this. I wouldn't take Allen as more than a reclamation project on a cheap backup style/1 year contract. It's possible he can keep his NHL career going with better coaching/goalie coaching and a change of scenery, but he would be pretty bad on his current cap hit.
 

airbus220

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Against a team that had lost 8 in a row. I’m not so sure you’ve watched the other starts Allen had. Regardless, it’s the same song and dance with Allen in net. We either lose 5-4 or he tosses a gem and only give up 2 goals or less and we get blanked or 1 goal. Somethings gotta give, I’m just not so sure that the fan base can be okay without a change of some sort ( coaching or personnel) within the next week or so. More specifically tomorrow.

It's only one game but I'm so very sure Allen played too many games. It's so obvious. Johnson wasn't bad recently but he shouldn't have played the last game too. The goalie problem is easily fixable.
 

BleedBlue14

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I'm actually warming up to the idea of being okay with trading Cory Schneider for Jake Allen and then just buying out Allen after this year, as he'd be an easier and cheaper buyout to absorb. I believe he only has 2 years left, while Schneider has 3 after this.

The problem is that I'd have to hope that Armstrong and company haven't watched any tape of Schneider over the last 2 years (outside of his 3 starts against Tampa in the playoffs last year) and haven't looked at his save percentage the last two years, to see the colossal dropoff from the preceding years. Or that he's so frustrated with Allen that Schneider looks respectable at this point. I firmly believe Schneider is close to a toe tag on his playing career. At least as far as being good. At the very least, he'll never be good again, at least not consistently or for more than a temporary stretch.

And in the 3 starts he's had this year, he's gotten blown up in 2 of them and sunk the team completely in one of them where the score was close. And he looked like an old, retired, 50+ year old goalie in his last start, with how slow his movements and reactions are and how off they were. So if I'm a Blues fan, I don't want him either. It has been proposed before though.

I'd only do it to buyout Allen after this. I wouldn't take Allen as more than a reclamation project on a cheap backup style/1 year contract. It's possible he can keep his NHL career going with better coaching/goalie coaching and a change of scenery, but he would be pretty bad on his current cap hit.

You sound like you are talking about Chad Johnson. We have one of him already. Also Cory Schneider’s contract is worse than Allen’s unless he is a very noticeable upgrade.
 
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Bleedred

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You sound like you are talking about Chad Johnson. We have one of him already. Also Cory Schneider’s contract is worse than Allen’s unless he is a very noticeable upgrade.
What do you mean I sound like I'm talking about Johnson? He was blown up in 2 of his 3 starts? Well he did have a shutout (or was it a one goal against game?) in one, which is something Schneider hasn't done in quite a while.

In fact Schneider has allowed 3 goals in his last 16 consecutive starts in the regular season and hasn't won any of them. The last time he allowed fewer than 3 in the regular season was December 27th of 2017. He did allow 2 goals in all 3 of his starts against Tampa in the playoffs, but his save percentage is .908% over his last 107 or 108 NHL games played, going back to October 2016. That's even including his excellent playoff series. I think it's about .907% if you take away those 3.5 games. It might even be .906% going back to November of 2016 and his last 95 or so games played, as he had one of his best October's in his career in 2016, before falling off about a week or so before Thanksgiving.

I do think he's been a bit unlucky to not have a single win in those 16 regular season starts, as a lot of goalies can have a win while allowing 3 goals. So he probably should have won 2-3 of those games, so the wins are irrelevant to me. What isn't irrelevant is his 16 straight regular season starts of allowing at least 3 goals. That's troubling. I'm waiting for him to have a 2 goal against game just on complete accident, with 3 shots hitting the post and 2 very soft goals against, but that hasn't even happened for him in the regular season since then and he's lost his starting job due to not making enough saves.

In conclusion, I think you are worse off with his contract than Allen's, as I believe the Blues are a cap ceiling team, if not close to it. I'm hoping we buy out Schneider after this year. I think it needs to happen. I super strongly believe it needs to happen. If he's not forced into LTIRement.
 

Meatball

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No he won't.

He wasn't even all that good when Hitchcock coached there, and Hitchcock has a history of giving goalies career years. Cechmanek, Turek, Esche, all looked good under Hitchcock and looked poor elsewhere. Steve Mason looked like a future star in his rookie season under Hitchcock, then never looked good again until he changed scenery. Brian Elliott hasn't even had an average season yet without Hitchcock. Not before he played for Hitchcock, nor after.

And Jake Allen was a slightly above average backup/1b guy under Hitchcock.

I'm not defending Yeo by the way, just saying that Allen is likely nothing more than an average goalie at the very best.

Would the Blues be a top-10 team in the league with Quenneville/better coaching? Probably. They should be a top 10 teams in the league right now, but their goalie tandem just isn't good enough. If you take away their goalies, they easily have a top 10 roster in the league. But that doesn't mean the goalie would be top 10. Best case scenario is that he's a Martin Jones type that is a starting goalie on a really strong team, but not top 10 in the league.

By the way, in my little project I'm doing, Jake Allen has allowed the second most stoppable goals this year by my count. He's allowed 14, which is one behind Mike Smith. Braden Holtby and Cam Ward are giving him a run for his money right now and trail just behind him at 13. What do all these goalies have in common? None of them have a save percentage better than .900% (Holtby is at .900) on the season. I also have Craig Anderson at 13, but he's faced more shots than any of these other guys, if not more than anyone in the league and I bet he's probably even played more games this season than any other goalie in the league.

If you don't mind my asking, what kind of project is it?

To the topic, decent game tonight (unlucky goal), but I think the Blues should move on as soon as possible for starting G options.
 

ColbyChaos

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The problem with Allen is that he plays for a team who has arguably the worst coach in the league (basically him and Carlyle). Pietro isnt even the first star Dman to regress playing for Yeo. He was good at being a spark coach replacing Hitchcock mid season but shouldnt be anything more than assistant long term. Openly willing to bet if Yeo is removed that entire team plays a lot better almost instantly including Allen. You cant blame the goalie when the entire team under-preforms massively.
 
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Meatball

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The guy flat out doesn't make saves. He's been in the league for 6 years, and you can count his impressive/wow moments with two instances: 1) Save against the Flames years ago. 2) 1 playoff series, years ago. I haven't seen a goalie that inspires less confidence in my life. I have also never seen a player with a worse attitude. If anyone is blackmailing anyone, it's this guy.

To put into perspective just how "undominate" this guy is... spanning this season and the last, Allen has started 61 games and has only recorded 1 shutout, total. We give up fewer than 30 shots per game, every season. He's basically achieved "manikin status." Put a manakin in there, instead, and it's going to save about as many shots and have a higher chance of shutting out a team. It's so sad to even have to talk about Allen. It's like talking about the towel boy in a conversation about the "top centers in the league." How does this guy come up? With all of the money Allen is stealing, don't be surprised if paranoia gets to him and he just goes on the run from the cops...

Mannequin, btw.
 

Bleedred

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If you don't mind my asking, what kind of project is it?

To the topic, decent game tonight (unlucky goal), but I think the Blues should move on as soon as possible for starting G options.
Stoppable goals correlation with save percentages

I don't update this thread daily, but I have been reviewing every game, every night on the out of town scoreboard thread on the Devils forum. I have watched every goal against this season, from every goalie that's played a minute this year and have been posting my reviews nightly and keeping track in a file on my computer of the stoppable goals allowed next to each goalies name and updating nightly. After years of reading ''That goalie doesn't suck! His team is awful! It's the DEE'S fault man! The coach sucks dude!'' and I've even seen it in this thread with the ''I think Allen will be a top 10 goalie in the league with Quenneville'' comment, I decided to do this to see if the poor save percentages align with poor play on the eye test and vice versa. It's still early and some goalies (backups) have only played a few games and even the starters haven't quite gotten to a sizable number yet, but I'm noticing the worst goalies in save percentage so far seem to be congruent with the eye test.

There are a few exceptions so far, like I think Fleury is one guy that hasn't played as poorly as his save percentage, while Bishop hasn't played as well as his. I've also found Crawford hasn't been as poor as his save percentage suggests. Rinne, Varlamov, Gibson, have all played as good as their save percentage has indicated. I only have Rinne down for 1 stoppable goal all season so far. Smith, Allen, Ward, Holtby and Price have all been as poor as their numbers have indicated. Bobrovsky had a very poor save percentage (it may have come up by now?) and I thought he wasn't playing quite as poorly as his save percentage indicated. I also thought Dubnyk was playing a bit better in save percentage than eye test. Same goes for Lehner. Not sure what Koskinen from Edmonton's numbers are (I know he has a shutout), but he's been abysmal on the eye test for me, in limited work.

McKenna and Hutchinson have been as bad as their numbers in very limited work. Jonathan Bernier has as well.

I didn't count the goal against Allen tonight as stoppable.
 
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SC2GM

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I didn't count the goal against Allen tonight as stoppable.

Well, that was nice of you. Even when giving Allen the benefit of the doubt, while he's busy playing slip n slide, your review, overall, is basically "yeah... those numbers that show he's the worst goalie in the league.... he earned them. He sucks so bad."

I agree, though. If they're not going to call an error on someone in baseball when they flat out miss the ball (don't get a glove on it), then hey... if you're never in the net when the puck goes in... then that sounds like the epitome of an unstoppable shot. Watching Jake Allen has to be sheer comedy for opposing teams.

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Thorton02

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I think Blues fans need to have more patience with Allen. I think he'll turn it around, and if he hasn't gotten any better by the trade deadline, you could look for an alternative. Same goes for Yeo. Give it more time.
 

airbus220

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I think Allen is terrible, but I also think the bigger issue is Yeo. If this team got Quenneville, I think Allen turns into a top 10 goalie in the league.

There are reasons why Allen had bad games in the past. But Allen had very good games too. It's like walking on a balance beam, sometimes people stumble and fall. This is fixable. There are reasons when you stumble, reasons when Allen can't make the save.
Last season the Blues were #7 in EVsave% (Allen/Hutton). Allen/Johnson are good enough to do it this season again and even better than that.
 

PiggySmalls

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Broduer for the lack of better terms, fixed Allen and then Allen decided to go back to what was comfortable to him. One of Allen’s biggest problem (outside him being a headcase) is he gets happy feet ALOT. When the puck is in his zone, he moves his feet back and forth like crazy. This leads to many of his push offs to start with his leg too far back and delays his ability to square up to the shooter. It gets even worse when he starts to lose track of the puck. It’s beyond frustrating. Broduer saw this and forced him to slow it down, he became better positionally and we all saw how that led to Allen carrying the Blues into the playoffs and basically single-handedly won the series vs. the Wild.
 

TomDelonge

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In this thread: People who don't watch blues games saying Allen isn't bad and that he will turn it around, assuming it must be the team faulting on him.

Also in this thread: Blues fans and western conference fans who see Allen on the regular and know he won't turn it around.
 

TomDelonge

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at the end of the day, whoever the other goalie is for the blues, the team plays better in front of them, the goalie plays better than allen and the team wins more games

and thats all i need to know

/Thread.

But seriously. Elliot, Hutton, Bishop, Halak. All people who outperformed Allen when they were here, and are outperforming him now and doing well in their roles. Management has a hard on for this guy and I have never understood why.
 
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PiggySmalls

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/Thread.

But seriously. Elliot, Hutton, Bishop, Halak. All people who outperformed Allen when they were here, and are outperforming him now and doing well in their roles. Management has a hard on for this guy and I have never understood why.

They are emotionally invested in him. Blues have never had a franchise goalie that they developed and won with, they want Allen to be that guy so bad. Their feelings towards him are no different then us Blues fans repeatedly coming back season after season thinking they will turn the page and win a cup. The bad thing is Army and company is paid to be more objective then this.
 
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