Jake Allen

[Stupendous Yappi]

Still haven't heard @Brian39 take on Allen's performance and his early predictions about Allen being good back-up goaltender and contract being good where Allen really stands now.

I’ll bite.

if he performs all season like the first 2 starts, that represents a big step back in quality from what he was providing last season as a backup (start counting from when Binnington was called up) statistically.

If he performed like the last season period I referenced, he would be a very good backup and at a price that is not great, but is acceptable. If he performs like the first 2 games only, they should find a way to replace him by the trade deadline.

 

[Evocable Manager]

It's this line of thinking that entrenched Allen in the Blues' crease for the better part of the past decade. The organization can't afford to anoint any goalie to the NHL roster until they're ready.

But Allen isn’t even ready for the NHL so what’s the difference?

Sure he played well after Binnington jumped on the scene but how many games did he play? 5? 6? He was still statistically awful last season, was dreadful the year before and was even horrible in 2016-2017 outside of a stretch of 15 games where he was red hot.

How long are we going to hold onto his few and far between stretches where he isn’t complete garbage and think he’s a competent goalie?

I’m not saying Husso is the answer but Allen certainly isn’t.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It's this line of thinking that entrenched Allen in the Blues' crease for the better part of the past decade. The organization can't afford to anoint any goalie to the NHL roster until they're ready.

I feel like you didn’t read my whole post at all.

I read it as "get Husso developed to the point that he can be NHL-ready for next season." And I don't disagree with that notion, but he's going to be Group VI after this season barring something unexpected. [Like, say, Binnington going down with an injury for a swath of the season and us putting Husso in the #1 spot because we don't trust Allen there.] So, if he's NHL-ready someone else may bite on him and we'll have to lob a 1-way deal for semi-decent coin (possibly up to $1.5 million). At that point, (a) we need to decide if he's worth that, and (b) if so, we need to hope he's amenable to coming back as a backup who's potentially not going to be playing for the #1 spot any time soon.

If it's Fitzpatrick that needs to be the guy, fine. I don't know if I see it happening that quickly, especially since he's in the ECHL again, but weirder things have happened. But if Husso walks and Fitzpatrick isn't ready, I think we need to move quickly to secure a backup. I'm not even opposed to finding that guy this season, but I think that requires the organization to decide that Husso isn't the heir-apparent for the backup spot and Fitzpatrick isn't ready, and finding someone to take Allen before we start assessing options.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Quite the pickle the Blues are in.

 

[Blueston]

I read it as "get Husso developed to the point that he can be NHL-ready for next season." And I don't disagree with that notion, but he's going to be Group VI after this season barring something unexpected. [Like, say, Binnington going down with an injury for a swath of the season and us putting Husso in the #1 spot because we don't trust Allen there.] So, if he's NHL-ready someone else may bite on him and we'll have to lob a 1-way deal for semi-decent coin (possibly up to $1.5 million). At that point, (a) we need to decide if he's worth that, and (b) if so, we need to hope he's amenable to coming back as a backup who's potentially not going to be playing for the #1 spot any time soon.

If it's Fitzpatrick that needs to be the guy, fine. I don't know if I see it happening that quickly, especially since he's in the ECHL again, but weirder things have happened. But if Husso walks and Fitzpatrick isn't ready, I think we need to move quickly to secure a backup. I'm not even opposed to finding that guy this season, but I think that requires the organization to decide that Husso isn't the heir-apparent for the backup spot and Fitzpatrick isn't ready, and finding someone to take Allen before we start assessing options.

Devon Williams continues to outplay Fitz. Would be funny if he was Binny-lite, outplaying and outlasting the more highly touted prospects.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

But Allen isn’t even ready for the NHL so what’s the difference?

Sure he played well after Binnington jumped on the scene but how many games did he play? 5? 6? He was still statistically awful last season, was dreadful the year before and was even horrible in 2016-2017 outside of a stretch of 15 games where he was red hot.

How long are we going to hold onto his few and far between stretches where he isn’t complete garbage and think he’s a competent goalie?

I’m not saying Husso is the answer but Allen certainly isn’t.

He played 13 regular season games after Binnington’s first start, with a save percentage the rest of the year of .922, including a couple shut-outs. From 1/7/18 when Binnington got the shut-out at Philadelphia, Allen performed above his career best season statistical performance level for the remainder of the season. It’s half a season, not a cherry picked stretch.

If the Blues had a backup who played that well, I’d be thrilled. If Allen played that well this year, I’d be thrilled.

There is a tendency on this forum for hyperbole about Allen’s performance. But can we use the facts please?

I’m not defending his 2 poor starts this season. But it’s the above numbers that I have in mind when I said previously (and was ridiculed) that I was fine with Allen as the back-up, even if he’s overpaid this season.

 

[DeuceNine]

Maybe it was a mistake to start him in a home game.

I thought about this. I also still contend we need to play him ONLY against power teams, so he can stay focused. More than one goalie coach we've had said that he really isn't paying too much attention until the puck hits our blue line.

 

[MissouriMook]

When do you play Allen again?

We've got back-to-backs coming up against Boston and Detroit, both on the road, on the 26th and 27th. Do you risk losing both games playing Binnington against Boston and Allen in Detroit?

Then you've got November 1st and 2nd, versus CBJ and at Minnesota. I think you play him on the road here.

Then you've got November 5th and 6th, at Vancouver and at Edmonton. The following week it is November 15th and 16th at CBJ and versus Anaheim.

Do you consider giving Binnington both games of a back to back in any of these situations? Our schedule has been pretty mild the first few weeks of the season so it's not like he's worn down at all now, but you can dig a hole that becomes tough to get out of if you don't take advantage of the opportunities to get your #1 guy a night off when the schedule offers it.

 

[Ranksu]

Is there available decent goaltenders what we could try to get cheap and than byout Allen?

 

[Em etah Eh]

Is there available decent goaltenders what we could try to get cheap and than byout Allen?

You can't buy out a player mid season. Would have to buy him out next year.

They could waive him and save like 900K which would then be used for the replacement goalie. So either way, you're still paying 4.35ish in cap for a backup goalie. Unless somebody claims Allen, which I don't see happening right now.

 

[67Blues]

You can't buy out a player mid season. Would have to buy him out next year.

They could waive him and save like 900K which would then be used for the replacement goalie. So either way, you're still paying 4.35ish in cap for a backup goalie. Unless somebody claims Allen, which I don't see happening right now.

Allen would sail through waivers like Taco bell does through me.

 

[DubyDubyDo]

When do you play Allen again?

We've got back-to-backs coming up against Boston and Detroit, both on the road, on the 26th and 27th. Do you risk losing both games playing Binnington against Boston and Allen in Detroit?

Then you've got November 1st and 2nd, versus CBJ and at Minnesota. I think you play him on the road here.

Then you've got November 5th and 6th, at Vancouver and at Edmonton. The following week it is November 15th and 16th at CBJ and versus Anaheim.

Do you consider giving Binnington both games of a back to back in any of these situations? Our schedule has been pretty mild the first few weeks of the season so it's not like he's worn down at all now, but you can dig a hole that becomes tough to get out of if you don't take advantage of the opportunities to get your #1 guy a night off when the schedule offers it.

I thought he would see his first start on the back-to-backs, so much for that.

Just please not on Nov. 1. I'm going to that game.

 

[Em etah Eh]

Allen would sail through waivers like Taco bell does through me.

I thought the waiver period lasted at least 24 hours though...

 

[Em etah Eh]

I thought he would see his first start on the back-to-backs, so much for that.

Just please not on Nov. 1. I'm going to that game.

We did the 12 game plan again this year, and our first game of the year was Saturday vs MTL. At least we got one period of entertainment out of it...

 

[Ranksu]

So our only chance is Allen gets injured and placed to IR? Than we van use his salary for another goaltender?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

So our only chance is Allen gets injured and placed to IR? Than we van use his salary for another goaltender?

Well, there is the crazy possibility that he can pull it together like he did last year.

I don't see any realistic way they move on from Allen mid-season. I think the only scenario that is very plausible is that they carry 3 goalies for a while, and call up Husso. I suppose they could move Allen to the AHL at that point if Husso proves to be ready to be the NHL back-up. The team would be paying the same in real dollars, but they'd actually have a tiny bit more cap space, since Husso's salary is 700K and Allen's salary would have close to a million that would not count against the cap any more (if he were in the AHL).

So I guess its a realistic scenario, if the team think Husso is the better option.

The first 2 starts were pretty poor for Allen, but I think its too early to conclude that he has no chance of playing like last year yet. He had a good quality start percentage last half of last season. That's what we should be hoping for from Allen. If he can muster that, there's no reason to do something drastic. I also wonder at the development impact of Husso getting limited starts as a back-up. He missed so much time last year, I think he needs to play a lot.

 

[67Blues]

Well, there is the crazy possibility that he can pull it together like he did last year.

I don't see any realistic way they move on from Allen mid-season. I think the only scenario that is very plausible is that they carry 3 goalies for a while, and call up Husso. I suppose they could move Allen to the AHL at that point if Husso proves to be ready to be the NHL back-up. The team would be paying the same in real dollars, but they'd actually have a tiny bit more cap space, since Husso's salary is 700K and Allen's salary would have close to a million that would not count against the cap any more (if he were in the AHL).

So I guess its a realistic scenario, if the team think Husso is the better option.

The first 2 starts were pretty poor for Allen, but I think its too early to conclude that he has no chance of playing like last year yet. He had a good quality start percentage last half of last season. That's what we should be hoping for from Allen. If he can muster that, there's no reason to do something drastic. I also wonder at the development impact of Husso getting limited starts as a back-up. He missed so much time last year, I think he needs to play a lot.

I'd rather Husso get the starts in the AHL and roll with a 50/50 chance that Allen plays well on the 20 games that he will appear in. Husso needs to get a lot of ice time and continue to develop and I don't see him getting much up here as Binny's backup. Move Allen or buy him out over the off season.

 

[MissouriMook]

Well, there is the crazy possibility that he can pull it together like he did last year.

I don't see any realistic way they move on from Allen mid-season. I think the only scenario that is very plausible is that they carry 3 goalies for a while, and call up Husso. I suppose they could move Allen to the AHL at that point if Husso proves to be ready to be the NHL back-up. The team would be paying the same in real dollars, but they'd actually have a tiny bit more cap space, since Husso's salary is 700K and Allen's salary would have close to a million that would not count against the cap any more (if he were in the AHL).

So I guess its a realistic scenario, if the team think Husso is the better option.

The first 2 starts were pretty poor for Allen, but I think its too early to conclude that he has no chance of playing like last year yet. He had a good quality start percentage last half of last season. That's what we should be hoping for from Allen. If he can muster that, there's no reason to do something drastic. I also wonder at the development impact of Husso getting limited starts as a back-up. He missed so much time last year, I think he needs to play a lot.

I think that is absolutely the plan for the first half of the year, but I could see a scenario (where Allen doesn't get it straightened out and Husso is playing well in the A) where they move forward with your other point above, burying Allen in the AHL and having Husso getting a start every third game to get some experience. This assumes that Allen's play is to the point where it is costing us points in the standings, or certainly to the point where Husso replacing him isn't expected to cost us more. I can't see a scenario where Allen's play is poor enough that they put him on waivers to bury him, but that another team is willing to take on his contract rather than allowing him to pass through waivers.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I think that is absolutely the plan for the first half of the year, but I could see a scenario (where Allen doesn't get it straightened out and Husso is playing well in the A) where they move forward with your other point above, burying Allen in the AHL and having Husso getting a start every third game to get some experience. This assumes that Allen's play is to the point where it is costing us points in the standings, or certainly to the point where Husso replacing him isn't expected to cost us more. I can't see a scenario where Allen's play is poor enough that they put him on waivers to bury him, but that another team is willing to take on his contract rather than allowing him to pass through waivers.

Maybe they would bring up Husso after the roster limit goes away, after the trade deadline. But they need to bank a bit of cap space (though he wouldn't take much of it). And run with 3 goalies. It allows Husso to get a taste of the NHL and get a couple starts at least. But despite posters like Ranksu wanting to jettison Allen right now, the team made their decision and are running with him as the back-up this year. He needs to be better, and needs to play better than the first couple starts. We'll see.

Fortunately, Binnington has played as well or even better than most of us hoped for. He isn't showing any signs of not being able to hold down the starter's responsibility effectively. If the biggest problem is who the back-up is, and the starter is solid, the team can live with that and make the playoffs.

 

[Blueston]

Maybe they would bring up Husso after the roster limit goes away, after the trade deadline. But they need to bank a bit of cap space (though he wouldn't take much of it). And run with 3 goalies. It allows Husso to get a taste of the NHL and get a couple starts at least. But despite posters like Ranksu wanting to jettison Allen right now, the team made their decision and are running with him as the back-up this year. He needs to be better, and needs to play better than the first couple starts. We'll see.

Fortunately, Binnington has played as well or even better than most of us hoped for. He isn't showing any signs of not being able to hold down the starter's responsibility effectively. If the biggest problem is who the back-up is, and the starter is solid, the team can live with that and make the playoffs.

You don’t need to run with 3 goalies. You wanna bring up Husso then just send Allen down. Not bloody likely he gets claimed. And if he does the cap relief would be a blessing.

 

[Celtic Note]

If we carry three goalies, that is just extra cap going towards the ceiling unless there is a LTIR situation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but sending Allen down to the AHL does not reduce his cap hit since he has a one-way contract.

I think the only way Husso is up this season is with an injury or a trade.

 

[Blueston]

If we carry three goalies, that is just extra cap going towards the ceiling unless there is a LTIR situation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but sending Allen down to the AHL does not reduce his cap hit since he has a one-way contract.

I think the only way Husso is up this season is with an injury or a trade.

You can bury up to a certain amount. Think it is $1mm.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

You don’t need to run with 3 goalies. You wanna bring up Husso then just send Allen down. Not bloody likely he gets claimed. And if he does the cap relief would be a blessing.

I’m just saying how I think the team would approach it.

Husso would make 700K in NHL salary, and roughly 1M of Allen’s cap hit CAN be buried.

 

[STL fan in MN]

You can bury up to a certain amount. Think it is $1mm.

$1.075M to be exact. NHL minimum (which is $700k this season) + $375k.

As the NHL minimum goes up how much can be burried in the minors also goes up.

 

[DeuceNine]

When do you play Allen again?

We've got back-to-backs coming up against Boston and Detroit, both on the road, on the 26th and 27th. Do you risk losing both games playing Binnington against Boston and Allen in Detroit?

Then you've got November 1st and 2nd, versus CBJ and at Minnesota. I think you play him on the road here.

Then you've got November 5th and 6th, at Vancouver and at Edmonton. The following week it is November 15th and 16th at CBJ and versus Anaheim.

Do you consider giving Binnington both games of a back to back in any of these situations? Our schedule has been pretty mild the first few weeks of the season so it's not like he's worn down at all now, but you can dig a hole that becomes tough to get out of if you don't take advantage of the opportunities to get your #1 guy a night off when the schedule offers it.

Play Allen on the road against the stronger of the two teams in back to backs. Prove me wrong Jake and I'll be quiet.