Jake Allen

[ezcreepin]

I have to imagine, given the goalies available and how the market will shape up in a few weeks, if Allen goes down to an injury, I don't believe they will call up Husso. I would expect them to keep him playing in the AHL as opposed to playing backup to Johnson. I would, however, expect them to either claim a goalie off waivers OR trade for a guy like Pickard to be a 1B/backup to Johnson. I don't think this is a bad idea, and I actually think Pickard could serve as good enough starter given the opportunity. This is all assuming Allen gets hurt or is traded (which I doubt happens), but I think the conversation is interesting.

 

[Dbrownss]

Of all the goals against Allen, the worst has been that 5th goal in game 1. I completely forgot about chest pads changing. Listening to NHL network, a few goalies have said they aren't saving pucks they normally would. It's hard to give Allen the benefit of the doubt....but something to consider.

 

[ezcreepin]

Wow, why is Elliott still in goal for the Flyers. Giving him the Roy treatment I suppose

 

[HighNote]

Wow, why is Elliott still in goal for the Flyers. Giving him the Roy treatment I suppose

He was under siege that whole game. 23 shots against in the first period alone.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Why are we still wasting time with Jake Allen?

 

[carter333167]

Why are we still wasting time with Jake Allen?

I don't know, but the decision is confusing because:

1. it has the potential to single-handedly wreck this season;
2. It cost us a playoff berth last year. Indeed, if Hutton had not been a world beater in his appearences, we probably would have had a top ten pick.
3. we have a very good 23 year old goalie in Husso (a fundamentally sound goalie) who arguably should be getting playing time, at least as a back-up, in the NHL now;
4. Most teams. after two straight seasons of a mid-season meltdown, probably would have moved on to other options.
5. At this point, most fans have lost trust in Jake and the fan reaction tends to pit the fans vs the players who naturally defend whomever is in their lockerroom.
6. It's probably in everyone's best interest, including Jake's best interest, for him to get a fresh start somewhere else.
7 This goes to point #1 but, if it all fails mid-season, the decision to change mid-season causes problems in the lockerroom and disrupts the continuity of that particular season.

One other point: I fear that, because we are giving up so many goals, Yeo will preach a collapse and turtle around Jake to block shots, which will have a very negative impact on generating a dynamic offensive transition. We then will be in the rinse and repeat, chicken and egg debate of how the Blues lack of scoring is causing losses. The teams that are offensively dynamic in transition and which aggressively press the play forward (e.g., Pens, Predators) concede an occassional break the other way b/c they have confidence that their goalie will step up and they view the added offense as favorable choice over a full turtle.

 

[TruBlu]

What if we get a "system goalie" to take his place and it changes nothing? Who will be the whipping boy then? Would we blame the system goalie or the team playing in front of him?

 

[CitizenSnips]

Armstrong giving him a long term contract that quickly was a bad idea before it was an idea.

Looking back, it could be, but at the time it seemed like we got him for a good length and dollar amount. It wasn't like we signed him for 6 million for 8 years or anything. I'm not calling you out here, but its the same thing with the Miller trade. If we would have won the cup or made it to the finals, Army looks like a genius. Same with the JBo trade. At the time of the trades / signings, they looked very good in my eyes.

The one he doesn't get a pass on is Jori, that was just terribad. I do not want to derail this thread, I just think back at the time when he was signed, it seemed like a fair contract to me

 

[carter333167]

What if we get a "system goalie" to take his place and it changes nothing? Who will be the whipping boy then? Would we blame the system goalie or the team playing in front of him?

If by "system goalie," you mean a fundamentally and positionally sound goalie, then you will get a better read on how our defensive structure is working b/c said goalie will be more predictable for the defenseman to defend.

In either case, regardless of whether the goalie is erratic with his positioning or is a quiet, positionally strong goalie. the goalie must do better against low and average danger chances than Jake has done in the last two seasons. The narrative that Jake's woes have been caused our defense simply don't hold water.

Aside from the discussion of Jake, if the Blues' plan is to leave Husso at SA for the entire year, I think it constitutes a mistake on numerous levels. My thoughts on Husso have as much to do with Johnson and general goalie development as they do with Jake.

B/c you have been an ardent supporter of Jake, I'll also go out on a limb and predict what I would expect to see as the differences between Jake and Ville. I think with Ville we would see the following:

1. Fewer 5 hole goals and generally fewer goals that go through the body (i.e., between the arms and the body;
2. Fewer goals into the top corners from the point (a killer against teams like the Preds) b/c Ville appears to stand taller on his knees in the butterfly than Jake who routinely crouches in the butterfly and makes himself smaller in net (thus exposing more net in the top corners).
3. A quieter style in general
4. Less early anticipation of the pass, trusting the D-men to take the backdoor and concentrating instead on the shooter. I think Jake is a bit gun shy of the cross ice pass.
5. Probably fewer short side goals.

 

[ManyIdeas]

Am I the only one that thinks out of the four goalies of the Blues/Sabres last season, we ended up with the most concerning two?

To be fair, I had no issue with that Jets game aside from 5th goal. Don't remember most of the Hawks game though, so not a good judge there. I think Allen has looked fine I guess

 

[Alklha]

Am I the only one that thinks out of the four goalies of the Blues/Sabres last season, we ended up with the most concerning two?

To be fair, I had no issue with that Jets game aside from 5th goal. Don't remember most of the Hawks game though, so not a good judge there. I think Allen has looked fine I guess

I'd agree with you.

Two games is too early to judge Jake Allen. I'm still not really interested in hearing anyone defending his record this season. Starting goalies make saves that they "shouldn't make", they stop plenty of breakaways, they stop all kinds of shots. Going through his goals one-by-one and saying "that one isn't bad, that one isn't bad, that one isn't bad" isn't proving anything. Good goalies on pathetic defensive teams still put up good numbers. Just look at Dubnyk in Edmonton where he was .916, .914 & .920 before his horrendous final season of .894 and they cut ties.

Allen has done absolutely nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Celtic Note]

Looking back, it could be, but at the time it seemed like we got him for a good length and dollar amount. It wasn't like we signed him for 6 million for 8 years or anything. I'm not calling you out here, but its the same thing with the Miller trade. If we would have won the cup or made it to the finals, Army looks like a genius. Same with the JBo trade. At the time of the trades / signings, they looked very good in my eyes.

The one he doesn't get a pass on is Jori, that was just terribad. I do not want to derail this thread, I just think back at the time when he was signed, it seemed like a fair contract to me

You still make the JBo trade in hindsight. It was too good to pass up, even if he wasn’t the right defensemen for our team, which is still my position today.

The Miller trade was a bad idea from the get go. Goaltending wasn’t sinking our playoff runs. Our offense wasn’t good enough. Plus, it was obvious to those who did their research that Miller wasn’t a good fit. I always thought he was overrated anyway. People where hedging bets on a lotto ticket with Miller.

Jake, if I am remembering correctly, still had RFA years. So doing a bridge was possible. The bridge also made sense, because that was Jake’s first year playing significant games. Goalies tend to be up and down. We already knew Jake’s history had more than enough ups and downs. Those concerns warranted a longer look.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Before we start trying to get a system goalie, we should probably start getting a system first. Sorry, but this team defensively looks like a complete crapshoot.

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

I'd agree with you.

Two games is too early to judge Jake Allen. I'm still not really interested in hearing anyone defending his record this season. Starting goalies make saves that they "shouldn't make", they stop plenty of breakaways, they stop all kinds of shots. Going through his goals one-by-one and saying "that one isn't bad, that one isn't bad, that one isn't bad" isn't proving anything. Good goalies on pathetic defensive teams still put up good numbers. Just look at Dubnyk in Edmonton where he was .916, .914 & .920 before his horrendous final season of .894 and they cut ties.

Allen has done absolutely nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt.

Such a money post!

Just look at Hellebuyck in game one. Dude stood on his head and made numerous great saves on shots that he had no business stopping. Allen? Not so much.

It has been 221 games now and Allen has proven to be one thing: unreliable. Why would anyone expect him to change?

 

[topshelf331]

After watching San Antonio highlights, I'd let the kids stay there for now. They are winning and look to be having fun. Bring them up when needed. And if our team starts limiting chances and Allen is still letting up softies, then call up Husso.

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

Before we start trying to get a system goalie, we should probably start getting a system first. Sorry, but this team defensively looks like a complete crapshoot.

Let's see how we look with Edmundson back in the lineup with Pietrangelo. I expect that to make a world of difference.

 

[Ranksu]

Such a money post!

Just look at Hellebuyck in game one. Dude stood on his head and made numerous great saves on shots that he had no business stopping. Allen? Not so much.

It has been 221 games now and Allen has proven to be one thing: unreliable. Why would anyone expect him to change?

They are blind fan boys.

 

[HighNote]

I don't know, but the decision is confusing because:

1. it has the potential to single-handedly wreck this season;
2. It cost us a playoff berth last year. Indeed, if Hutton had not been a world beater in his appearences, we probably would have had a top ten pick.
3. we have a very good 23 year old goalie in Husso (a fundamentally sound goalie) who arguably should be getting playing time, at least as a back-up, in the NHL now;
4. Most teams. after two straight seasons of a mid-season meltdown, probably would have moved on to other options.
5. At this point, most fans have lost trust in Jake and the fan reaction tends to pit the fans vs the players who naturally defend whomever is in their lockerroom.
6. It's probably in everyone's best interest, including Jake's best interest, for him to get a fresh start somewhere else.
7 This goes to point #1 but, if it all fails mid-season, the decision to change mid-season causes problems in the lockerroom and disrupts the continuity of that particular season.

One other point: I fear that, because we are giving up so many goals, Yeo will preach a collapse and turtle around Jake to block shots, which will have a very negative impact on generating a dynamic offensive transition. We then will be in the rinse and repeat, chicken and egg debate of how the Blues lack of scoring is causing losses. The teams that are offensively dynamic in transition and which aggressively press the play forward (e.g., Pens, Predators) concede an occassional break the other way b/c they have confidence that their goalie will step up and they view the added offense as favorable choice over a full turtle.

I agree with most everything except the bold. We're probably nearing that time where we should be moving on from Allen, if we aren't already there.

 

[Evocable Manager]

I agree with most everything except the bold. We're probably nearing that time where we should be moving on from Allen, if we aren't already there.

Except he did cost us a playoff berth.

In two months he won two games. Meanwhile Hutton was the NHL's best goalie. The difference wasn't a coincidence.

 

[Alklha]

Except he did cost us a playoff berth.

In two months he won two games. Meanwhile Hutton was the NHL's best goalie. The difference wasn't a coincidence.

I think that the problem with the argument is that we had so many issues that cost us that place.

If Allen was better we would have made the playoffs.

If we weren't taking so many too many men on the ice penalties and were better disciplined on zone entries and exits then we'd have made the playoffs.

If we had a better PP... If we hadn't insisted on playing a crippled Bouwmeester for 3 months... If we hadn't played the majority of games with only four top-6 calibre forwards... etc.

Last season was a bit of a perfect storm, while Allen was one of the main issues there were plenty of others.

 

[carter333167]

I do think that Jake is on his last strike with Armstrong. I don't expect that DA will be patient if he sees consistently sub-par play. DA said as much when he discussed his summer exit interview with Jake at the end of last season.

 

[Evocable Manager]

I think that the problem with the argument is that we had so many issues that cost us that place.

If Allen was better we would have made the playoffs.

If we weren't taking so many too many men on the ice penalties and were better disciplined on zone entries and exits then we'd have made the playoffs.

If we had a better PP... If we hadn't insisted on playing a crippled Bouwmeester for 3 months... If we hadn't played the majority of games with only four top-6 calibre forwards... etc.

Last season was a bit of a perfect storm, while Allen was one of the main issues there were plenty of others.

There's no denying we had issues.

However, what was the most glaring?

Our shit PP, too many men on the ice, Bouwmeester infected, lack of forward talent group of a team managed to pull off wins with Hutton and seemingly dissolved entirely with Allen.

In reality if he stops a basic point shot with 8 seconds left were a playoff team.

However I moreso blame Yeo for the disaster last season than Allen in the grand scheme of the season. The fact Butler played that game or that Allen even hit 50 games is beyond me. I don't even wanna go into the rest.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

The power play was relatively worse in comparison to the league average than The Blue’s goaltending was. Yes, a lot of that is credit due to Hutton. But he DID get those starts. Hard to believe this is the type of argument we get to have around here now. Anyway, I think the PP was a bigger source of blame, if the exercise is about replaying last year and trying to change one thing.

But the biggest blame there (to me) may go to Armstrong for the personnel handedness, or maybe for hiring Yeo and the assistants. Yeo gets plenty of blame there too. It remains to be seen if there is competence to change that now that the personnel is different.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Start Chad

 

[Brian39]

I'm not overly concerned with Allen so far, but I'm also not overly impressed. I would describe his play as "fine" through the first 2 games. No better and no worse. He was very good in the Jets game for about 50 minutes and then allowed a stoppable breakaway. The 5th goal was awful, but the game was over at that point so I really don't care about that one. Goals 1, 3 and 4 were all goals that beat every goalie in the league 95+% of the time. He wasn't as good against Chicago. He looked less comfortable and was sliding too much for my liking. I wouldn't describe any of the goals as "bad" goals, but he should have stopped one of Toews' first two goals. The OT winner and Kane's snipe were another couple shots that are goals 95% of the time against any goalie in this league. He also had a number of very good saves, including a point blank stop on Kane when our D somehow watched him come right down the middle, a great poke check (and subsequent save) and a series where he stopped Anisomov twice on a cross ice one timer and rebound. Again, taken as a whole, I'd say his play was fine.

With that said, he's not a Vezina candidate. Anyone expecting him to do for this team what Hellebuyck does for the Jets is going to be disappointed. You'll be disappointed by Husso too (at least for the first year or two). I love Hellebuyck and he has been one of my favorite non-Blues prospects since 2012/13 when he absolutely carried U Mass-Lowell to the Frozen Four with a .950 SV% for the season. I watched him play a ton before he hit the NHL and had more confidence in his ability to be an NHL starter than I do with Husso (who I'm also very, very high on). And then he got to the NHL and looked below average as a 22, 23 and young 24 year old. It's easy to forget that the Jets gave Steve Mason two years at $4.1 mil per year last summer because they were concerned about Hellebyuck's ability to be an adequate starter.

The odds of Husso being able to just come in as an above average NHL starter are almost zero. For better or worse, the expectation this season just shouldn't be that we can realistically have a top end NHL goalie. We don't have that in our organization at the moment. I think Husso can be that in 2-3 years, but I also think that his development is best served by learning how to handle a starter's load at the AHL level.

I'm not sold that Allen can be an average goalie this year, but I'm also not sold that he can't. The 1st 2 games of the season haven't swayed me either way and I think he played about how I'd expect an average NHL starter to play most nights when the defensive structure is a dumpster fire. He'll need to sprinkle in some games where he bails the team out, but it is unrealistic to expect him to do so every night. Regardless of who is in net for us, you're in for a long, frustrating season if you think any goalie in our organization can be a top end starter throughout the season this year. This roster was built to be good enough to have success with an average starter and the cap structure reflects that. Allen is the 20th highest paid goalie in the league and Johnson is the 45th highest paid. Very few teams have less money invested in their tandem and we used every cent of those savings on the rest of the roster.