Jake Allen 2018-19

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Tryblot

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Gonna stop you right there. That in and of itself is a fantastic save. Cross crease one timers are very difficult to stop.

Depending on the placement. Had it been to the corner of the net and he saved it I would agree with you but it was back to the center of the net along the ice. Like I said, any goalie would have made that save.
 

HolyJumpin

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I think people are too defensive about a goaltender that has only had a few blips of success since becoming the undisputed starter for the Blues. He's not saving goals, and while his team isn't helping him out right now (coaching change...Van Ryn ain't got it) the fact of the matter is that other teams' defensive lapses don't seem to end up in the net nearly as often as they do with Allen. That's the point of having a goaltender. There's nothing wrong with Allen being a backup goaltender, in fact he probably would be one of the best backups in the league. But he's not in the right place here and he needs to either get moved or play second fiddle on this team. If it's bad now, what's happening in January and February? Let him move on and let's get an experienced goaltender. I'd rather have goaltending be a strength than a weakness anymore.
 

steinerecliner

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I think people are too defensive about a goaltender that has only had a few blips of success since becoming the undisputed starter for the Blues. He's not saving goals, and while his team isn't helping him out right now (coaching change...Van Ryn ain't got it) the fact of the matter is that other teams' defensive lapses don't seem to end up in the net nearly as often as they do with Allen. That's the point of having a goaltender. There's nothing wrong with Allen being a backup goaltender, in fact he probably would be one of the best backups in the league. But he's not in the right place here and he needs to either get moved or play second fiddle on this team. If it's bad now, what's happening in January and February? Let him move on and let's get an experienced goaltender. I'd rather have goaltending be a strength than a weakness anymore.

Ok, my response is this, a lot of people have said trade Allen but nobody has said anything about who the hell is out there to replace him? Like be clear here, The Blues are against the cap so there really not money to just go sign anybody and it's not like there just an Elite goalie just sitting around playing for nobody. Season started if there was an Elite Goalie out there he would already been signed by a team. Second, what team right now is going to be the trade partner and take on the contract he has? So the best option right now and if he hurt for a length of time, they call up the top Goalie prospect in Husso and see if he is the answer. Than you go what if he not?

What are the chances at the trade deadline an Elite Goalie will be on the block, most teams that have one is likely in the run for the playoffs. Then you have to look at the free agent market next off season. Who is going to be out there? Again to clear cap space you still have to find a taker for Allen. There was a reason why Hutton didn't get signed because the Blues didn't want to spend all than money on two goalies and again Hutton is a career backup so while he doing good now, lets see how he is at 60ish games. My point at this moment who are you going to replace him with?
 

ChuckLefley

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Jan 5, 2016
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Attack? lol

By saying Allen is the worst starting goalie in the league that equates to attacking you? I guess pointing out Allen's horrible goal last night equates to somehow I'm mad too?? :popcorn:
I see you are still trying to distance yourself from any knowledge of goaltending and distract people from that lack of knowledge.

Thanks for admitting it. Enjoy your anger over the Blues blowing out the Hawks.
 

TruBlu

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I'm ambivalent on Allen at this point. Part of me wants him to go so we can see what happens. I don't really think things will improve, but I'm tired of hearing the goalie (sucks) narrative for our goalies. It's been that way for years.
 
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carter333167

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I'm ambivalent on Allen at this point. Part of me wants him to go so we can see what happens. I don't really think things will improve, but I'm tired of hearing the goalie narrative for our goalies. It's been that way for years.

I think most here believe that Allen is not an elite goaltender. Some would go so far as to say that he is barely an average goaltender at this point.

Like you, most are tired of discussing goaltenders but that discussion may well be a result of the fact that neither Halak, nor Elliott nor Allen were really elite goaltenders. This leads me to the point that this is an issue that rests with the front office.

Regarding Allen in particular, I think the front office has waited too long to develop options B and C. We have only one future back-up plan: it's Husso and the FO still doesn't think he's ready to be tested in the NHL.

In sum, I don't think we should blame ourselves for concentrating on goaltending. It's the most important position on the ice and DA hasn't been able to solve the riddle at this position. I think the FO has bungled the goaltending situation just a bit. I'll give DA a lot of credit for the ROR deal but goaltending needed some attention this summer as well (i.e, at least investigate trades for at least one other decent prospect or spend a high pick on goaltender).
 
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TruBlu

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I think most here believe that Allen is not an elite goaltender. Some would go so far as to say that he is barely an average goaltender at this point.

Like you, most are tired of discussing goaltenders but that discussion may well be a result of the fact that neither Halak, nor Elliott nor Allen were really elite goaltenders. This leads me to the point that this is an issue that rests with the front office.

Regarding Allen in particular, I think the front office has waited too long to develop options B and C. We have only one future back-up plan: it's Husso and the FO still doesn't think he's ready to be tested in the NHL.

In sum, I think the FO has bungled the goaltending situation just a bit. I'll give DA a lot of credit for the ROR deal but goaltending needed some attention this summer as well (i.e, at least investigate trades for at least one other decent prospect or spend a high pick on goaltender).
Yet, they were the top goalie tandem in the league. No one likes them now, and many hated them (one or the other) then. Just because the goalie is the last person that the puck goes through doesn't mean that he's at fault. Our defense isn't what it has been.
 

Evocable Manager

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Apr 20, 2016
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I'm ambivalent on Allen at this point. Part of me wants him to go so we can see what happens. I don't really think things will improve, but I'm tired of hearing the goalie (sucks) narrative for our goalies. It's been that way for years.
No it hasn't.

Elliott was statistically the best goalie in the league as a Blue. For whatever reason, Dizee hated him but he was great here.

Halak wasn't outstanding but he did win (with Elliott) the trophy for least goals against. We dumped him off for Miller who was crap.

Hutton was praised for his time in STL because he was god like.

Allen pisses people off because the organization chose him despite him never distinguishing himself from the pack. I can understand why Elliott was moved and why they picked Allen to be the "the guy," but the 4 year extension has been nothing but crippling. That pisses me off.
 

carter333167

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Yet, they were the top goalie tandem in the league. No one likes them now, and many hated them (one or the other) then. Just because the goalie is the last person that the puck goes through doesn't mean that he's at fault. Our defense isn't what it has been.

What good does it do to debate Halak vs Elliott or Allen at this point? Do you believe that any of them are great goaltenders? Elliott left STL and hasn't been great. Halak has been OK. Jake is probably the least consistent of the three.

In any case, I never stated that every goal is the goaltender's fault. Rather, I have argued that large sample sizes ( half a season, a full season, multiple seasons, etc.) don't typically lie about a goaltender's abilities.

More importantly, I made the point that we haven't been able to develop or acquire a clearly great goaltender over the last few years...unless Husso is that guy.
 

Mafisen

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Oct 14, 2018
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I'm no goaltending expert by any stretch of the imagination, but most goalies you see are quite aggressive and come out of the net to take away angles etc and that's their style. Allen on the other hand seem to sometimes come out and sometimes stay deep. He also seems to get his angles wrong, exposing the goal.

Like Kane's first last night. Kane entered the zone centrally and Allen is, correctly, central in the goal, albeit quite deep, well inside the crease, but when Kane moves over to his left, Allen's right, Allen doesn't follow and does not come out, leaving space on his blocker side. I thought that was very weird why he acted like that.

Does he not know where he is in the goal? Did he read the play badly and didn't expect a shot (is he generally bad at reading the game)?

Either way, I think his positioning is off quite often.
 

Robb_K

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I'm no goaltending expert by any stretch of the imagination, but most goalies you see are quite aggressive and come out of the net to take away angles etc and that's their style. Allen on the other hand seem to sometimes come out and sometimes stay deep. He also seems to get his angles wrong, exposing the goal.

Like Kane's first last night. Kane entered the zone centrally and Allen is, correctly, central in the goal, albeit quite deep, well inside the crease, but when Kane moves over to his left, Allen's right, Allen doesn't follow and does not come out, leaving space on his blocker side. I thought that was very weird why he acted like that.

Does he not know where he is in the goal? Did he read the play badly and didn't expect a shot (is he generally bad at reading the game)?

Either way, I think his positioning is off quite often.
Yes. I would say that Allen's skill at reading plays is below average. And that is one of his weaknesses as a goaltender. It goes hand-in-hand with his spells of poor positioning. Allen has good reflexes and athletic ability. But he counts on that too much. His slow reactions to plays forming, because of not reading the play early enough, or his reading the play incorrectly lead to being out of position, and leave too much of the net open. I'd much rather have a less athletic goaltender, who reads plays well and has excellent positioning habits, and is very consistent and disciplined. If The Blues had a goalie like that now, they'd have a much better record.
 

Spektre

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I see you are still trying to distance yourself from any knowledge of goaltending and distract people from that lack of knowledge.

Thanks for admitting it. Enjoy your anger over the Blues blowing out the Hawks.


Pretty sure you’re the only one mad since I’m not lol, I also don’t have any problem admitting I’m not a goalie savant. That still doesn’t help Allen from sucking so bad. Do you propose that if you know more about goaltending than I do somehow that makes Allen good?

I know Allen barely got hit by Sanford and laid on the ice face down like he got hit by a rhino. I’ve rewatched the collision now at least 15 times and it’s my opinion Allen faked it. That doesn’t make it a fact but it sure would line up with his mental makeup.
 

carter333167

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I'm no goaltending expert by any stretch of the imagination, but most goalies you see are quite aggressive and come out of the net to take away angles etc and that's their style. Allen on the other hand seem to sometimes come out and sometimes stay deep. He also seems to get his angles wrong, exposing the goal.

Like Kane's first last night. Kane entered the zone centrally and Allen is, correctly, central in the goal, albeit quite deep, well inside the crease, but when Kane moves over to his left, Allen's right, Allen doesn't follow and does not come out, leaving space on his blocker side. I thought that was very weird why he acted like that.

Does he not know where he is in the goal? Did he read the play badly and didn't expect a shot (is he generally bad at reading the game)?

Either way, I think his positioning is off quite often.

I would add to Robb's astute analysis the following:

Jake's positive attributes

1. Very fast legs (although I think this becomes a double edged sword for him at times)
2. Good glove hand (although I would typically expect better--ala Rinne---from someone with his reflexes)

Jake's Inconsistencies

1. Vision--Puck Tracking--I don't think he sees/tracks the puck as well as the elite goaltenders.
2. Overreliance on the butterfly slide as opposed side shuffle for lateral movement---Too fast to his knees
3. Generally inconsistent positioning (sometimes Ok but too often he gets in bad positions)
4. At this point, lack of confidence which translates to his style becoming a mishmash and not having confidence in any particular fundamental. (Example--he seems to be playing deeper in net this year which I doubt will work out well for him over the course of a season)
5. When things are going really badly for him, he starts cheating and doing butterfly slides to where he thinks the shot is heading.

I labelled the second list "inconsistencies" b/c there are times when these attributes are less of a problem. For example, on the play in which he was injured last night, I think he played the puck very well from start to finish. The key is to get that level of execution on the vast majority of shots he faces per night.

Over the course of the last 18 months or so, though, I think the many dips have shot his confidence to a degree that these problems have been more prevalent. He seems to panic more quickly now and show his hand to the shooter (he reacts before the shooter shoots or passes) and NHL shooters are so good that they can take advantage of an early move by the goaltender.

In any case, Jake may get it together and start playing well. I think a good stretch of play is what he needs more than anything else, mainly for his confidence.
 
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ChuckLefley

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Pretty sure you’re the only one mad since I’m not lol, I also don’t have any problem admitting I’m not a goalie savant. That still doesn’t help Allen from sucking so bad. Do you propose that if you know more about goaltending than I do somehow that makes Allen good?

I know Allen barely got hit by Sanford and laid on the ice face down like he got hit by a rhino. I’ve rewatched the collision now at least 15 times and it’s my opinion Allen faked it. That doesn’t make it a fact but it sure would line up with his mental makeup.
Let’s break this down.

-You still run away from trying to refute anything I said about those goals.
- You claim, because I have actual goaltending knowledge and you have none, that I am claiming Allen is good.
-You actually believe that Allen faked an injury with about a minute left in the second period, with the Blues up by one, having just made a fantastic save on Saad. “Barely got hit?” Yeah, his head just snapped back on its own. That’s asylum level crap, right there. Are you sure you aren’t that guy from Seattle who posted stuff about Butler only playing, a few years ago, because Butler Chevrolet was a sponsor.

It’s been fun, but you’ve bored me with your juvenile nonsense, so I’ll be moving on. Rage on!
 
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WeWentBlues

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I've defended Allen's play a lot this year but it seemed like all three of the Hawks goals last night were stoppable.
 

stl76

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Pretty sure you’re the only one mad since I’m not lol, I also don’t have any problem admitting I’m not a goalie savant. That still doesn’t help Allen from sucking so bad. Do you propose that if you know more about goaltending than I do somehow that makes Allen good?

I know Allen barely got hit by Sanford and laid on the ice face down like he got hit by a rhino. I’ve rewatched the collision now at least 15 times and it’s my opinion Allen faked it. That doesn’t make it a fact but it sure would line up with his mental makeup.
I don't want to wade too deep into this back-and-forth, but the bolded is just flat out crazy.

Allen's head snapped back pretty violently in that collision. It was ugly. Goalie masks are designed to protect against impacts from pucks not players...the idea that Allen faked a head injury for some reason, and that doing so would line up with his mental make up, is insane.
 

Spektre

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You’re trying really hard.

First one: first it’s impossible to kick the rebound to the opposite side, he makes a butterfly save and the puck goes in front due to the angle, not good, but the real issue is the fact that it’s 2 vs. 3 and two of the Blues are just watching and not doing anything.

Second one: The shot deflects off of someone (O’Reilly, I beleive) and changes direction, causing him to have to make a last second reflex save.

The third one: Bennet makes a nice move and Allen goes down to make the save but Bennet loses the puck. The real issue is that Neal comes down the slot all alone.

Fourth one: Shot to the far post, a save has to put a rebound out to the other side, it’s why you shoot to the far post in a situation like that. Once again, the D let’s the Hawks player get the puck and shoot it.

Fifth one: Bad goal, but much more difficult than people like you think.

Sixth one: Let’s see, stupid pass gives the puck to the Habs in the most dangerous spot on the ice. The shot gets deflected to the side and the player switches up to backhand it up into the net as Allen butterfly slides over. He played it perfectly. A highlight reel save is the only way he makes that save. Of course if Parayko doesn’t make the worst possible play he can make in that situation, it’s not even a save opportunity.

Six goals that you claim are all on Allen and someone with actual goalie coaching and playing experience shows you how they actually aren’t all on Allen.

Anything else?


You completely skip the 1st goal I posted. It’s one forward at an extreme angle from the wing, on his back hand. It’s 100% Allen’s fault and an extremely weak goal.

The 2nd goal I posted a screenshot of the moment the puck hits Allen. You can clearly see his entire left leg and pad. What you don’t see is the puck. It’s not the normal kick out save for the rebound. If you watch at normal speed you can see the slight hesitation from the time the puck hits Allen until the rebound comes out. If you are sure the puck hits his left leg please provide a screenshot.

The 3rd goal I won’t fault Allen too much. The puck was tipped coming through and I originally missed that.

The 4th with Bennet I stated it was a defensive break down. That still doesn’t keep Allen from having any role in the goal. Bennet never gets a shot off but inexplicably Allen is completely on the ice. He’s not simply in a butterfly, he’s completely sprawled out on the ice for no reason other than overreacting. Had Allen actually just performed a butterfly or been on his knees, it’s possible he could have reacted to Neal. I didn’t say and still don’t think Allen has 100% of the blame (like the 1st goal on the backhand) but it’s poor positioning.


The 5th one you chalk up to the old pass off the pad. I would completely agree with you except the wrist shot comes from top of the circle. The distance alone should allow Allen to steer the rebound more towards the corner. If the shooter is right on the door step and that rebound happens I don’t have a problem with it. When the wrist shot comes from 50 feet away it’s a horrible rebound to give up.

The 6th goal was again a back hand from far enough out it has to be stopped. I fully realize backhands are harder to read coming off the stick but it’s a save Allen has to make.

You talk about the Parayko gaffe goal as though I put it all on Allen. I didn’t even screenshot it because it was such a horrible play by Parayko. I simply said Allen could have done more effort wise.

Even the two backhands that are inexcusable you defend. I can only guess you would defend the 1st goal Kane scored Saturday night. That again was a horrible goal and 100% on Allen. There’s no excuse for him not being on top of the crease.

You then suspect me of being nuts because I dare question an athlete faking an injury. Yeah that’s never happened before in hockey. Also Allen has never had a track record of being a mental case right? I mean how many goalies in the 50 year history of the Blues had to skip a road trip to stay home in a mental timeout??? I can only think of one. I’m not Allen so I can’t say 100% he was faking or not. One thing I do know is normally when a person has pain in any area they normally tend to hold that area with their hands. Allen never did. He laid face down not moving, and when he finally did get up and skated off he never even took off his mask. Why? If your neck or head hurt, why would you leave your mask on instead of taking it off and rubbing or holding that area??? It makes no sense.

Anyway, it’s obvious you will defend Allen on any goal scored against and get extremely upset with anyone criticizing Allen (or probably any Blues player).
 
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Spektre

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I don't want to wade too deep into this back-and-forth, but the bolded is just flat out crazy.

Allen's head snapped back pretty violently in that collision. It was ugly. Goalie masks are designed to protect against impacts from pucks not players...the idea that Allen faked a head injury for some reason, and that doing so would line up with his mental make up, is insane.


You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m simply giving mine. I’ve never said it’s a fact Allen was faking but it looked weak and like my above post he never holds his head or neck or takes his mask off.
 

mk80

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Honestly people can be on whatever side of the Allen debate they want to be on...

I realize this Hawks game is a bit different due to the injury, but after a win I don't care how the goals against were scored or if Allen was at fault, if we get a win with him in net at the end of the day he stopped enough pucks to get the win.

Again in this case it's different because he left early injured. But on a smaller scale no matter how bad the goals against were he stopped enough pucks to exit with a 4-3 lead.
 

wannabebluesplayer

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Apr 16, 2012
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Honestly people can be on whatever side of the Allen debate they want to be on...

I realize this Hawks game is a bit different due to the injury, but after a win I don't care how the goals against were scored or if Allen was at fault, if we get a win with him in net at the end of the day he stopped enough pucks to get the win.

Again in this case it's different because he left early injured. But on a smaller scale no matter how bad the goals against were he stopped enough pucks to exit with a 4-3 lead.

I understand you're point, but you're putting a lot of pressure on the rest of your team when you struggle making routine saves. The Blues aren't a team built to win every game 7-6 or 5-4. They won't be very successful this season with Jake or Ocho Cinco if they have to consistently score 4+ goals to win. Sometimes, you have to win some games 2-1, 1-0, etc. I've defended Allen at times, but the last two years combined with this start aren't a good look at all. Maybe a change of scenery or a push back to a half/half role would be best for Allen, but Chad Johnson isn't the 1A/1B goalie to do that with, but maybe Binnington (I doubt it) or Husso (again, I doubt it) are. Or, maybe the Blues can move Allen to another team and let him get a fresh start, ala Dubnyk. Cory Schneider isn't a bad potential move as a change of scenery may help him. He's due more money however, so at this point, I think I'd be more comfortable turning the net over to Husso because at least teams tend to rally around and protect a younger goaltender.
 

TruBlu

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What good does it do to debate Halak vs Elliott or Allen at this point? Do you believe that any of them are great goaltenders? Elliott left STL and hasn't been great. Halak has been OK. Jake is probably the least consistent of the three.

In any case, I never stated that every goal is the goaltender's fault. Rather, I have argued that large sample sizes ( half a season, a full season, multiple seasons, etc.) don't typically lie about a goaltender's abilities.

More importantly, I made the point that we haven't been able to develop or acquire a clearly great goaltender over the last few years...unless Husso is that guy.
I wasn't specifically saying you were guilty of that mindset. I just get tired of the bashing that constantly happens in this thread. It seems like no matter who we have in goal it is never enough. Allen is inconsistent. He's not a star goalie, but I think the team can win with him in net. Until a better option comes open we are stuck with him. I'm open to picking up someone else just to move on, although I'm sure the next goalie will probably not be good enough for the fan base. It's like when we win the team won, but when we lose, the goalie lost us the game.
 

542365

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I just don't even see how this is a discussion anymore. It's been determined, with over 200 games of evidence, that he's a dreadful goalie. The only discussion we should be having is how do we get out from under that contract to be able to bring in another goalie. Husso might not be the solution, he may be just as bad or worse than Allen, but we know for a fact that Jake is not the solution to our goaltending. We know for a fact he's a well below average starting goalie who probably would be best served in a backup role somewhere.

So how do we go about getting a starter? Handing the reigns to Husso is a good way to ruin a promising prospect. He should be given the opportunity to be the backup next year and maybe given some starts this year if the team continues down the path they're on. How much would Bobrovsky cost? Would he be worth it considering his terrible start to this season? Could we pry Luongo out of Florida(though I think he has a NTC and specifically wanted to go to Florida from Vancouver if memory serves)? Lundqvist seems like a Ranger for life through hell or high water so I don't see him going anywhere, but maybe wouldn't hurt to ask(salary would be an issue, though). Jonathan Quick loves LA from all reports, but maybe if LA goes down the tubes and the Blues rebound he might be willing to come here? I can't think of any other even remote possibilities, but maybe there are others out there.

There are only 15 or so consistently solid goalies in the league, so drafting our own seems like our best option, but we haven't had much success in that route outside of maybe Ben Bishop. Regardless we have to do something. Yes, the defense is bad and needs to be improved either internally through coaching or through additions/subtractions from the group, but our goaltending is even worse than our defense. It's the more urgent need and should be addressed ASAP, not in the offseason.
 
Apr 30, 2012
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Depending on the placement. Had it been to the corner of the net and he saved it I would agree with you but it was back to the center of the net along the ice. Like I said, any goalie would have made that save.
Where the shooter put the puck is irrelevant to this. The point is that it’s very difficult for a goaltender to go across the crease to stop a one timer. You’ve got to get a great push to even get your leg across in time. In addition to staying balanced enough to try to get your body/arms over too.

Getting your body in a position where you have a chance for the puck to hit you is 90% of goaltending.
 
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