Jagr or Orr?

Zine

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Feb 28, 2002
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WHen Toe was playing I knew one day guys like you would point to his stats and trophies.

Dude he had the easiset career of any athlete in history...he was protected by guys on and off the ice; the oilers were in the easiest division in league history and waltzed to the finals every year playing AHL level teams. The first time they won the cup they played the islanders who had been hammered by the habs...Oilers had a 9 day layoff - think that didnt help? I could go on....

I dont care how many goals he scored as a 10 year old, every nhler forward scored in bunches as a kid. Born in Jan he was the biggest kid on the ice until he was 15.

EVer see a slashing call against him?

I just know you were born yesterday...I dont hate a guy who I have in my top 20...only fanatics would think that

I rank Gretzky as the 3rd best NHL forward.

The proof is in the fact that once Gretzky left Edmonton, his level of dominance greatly diminished -- IMO its b/c he was no longer being 'protected' to the extent he was with the Oilers.
He was still winning scoring titles, but nothing like the 50+ point seperations he used to have over the next highest scorers. Also, Gretzky was only 27 when he left so he was still EASILY in his prime.

Compare Lemieux to a post-Edm Gretzky and its an easy advantage to Lemieux......that even takes into account comparing them at the same age. In addition, Lemieux was like 1000x more injured.

I also take Howe over Gretzky because, in addition to his dominance and longevity, Howe fought his own battles. Imagine Gordie's (or Lemieux's) dominance if nobody ever layed a finger on them.
 

KariyaIsGod*

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I rank Gretzky as the 3rd best NHL forward.

The proof is in the fact that once Gretzky left Edmonton, his level of dominance greatly diminished -- IMO its b/c he was no longer being 'protected' to the extent he was with the Oilers.
He was still winning scoring titles, but nothing like the 50+ point seperations he used to have over the next highest scorers. Also, Gretzky was only 27 when he left so he was still EASILY in his prime.

Compare Lemieux to a post-Edm Gretzky and its an easy advantage to Lemieux......that even takes into account comparing them at the same age. In addition, Lemieux was like 1000x more injured.

I also take Howe over Gretzky because, in addition to his dominance and longevity, Howe fought his own battles. Imagine Gordie's (or Lemieux's) dominance if nobody ever layed a finger on them.

This is the dumbest argument anybosy comes up with the discredit Wayne.

He wasn't protected. How can you hit what you can't catch?

Furthermore, its like revolver said, why take a penalty on him when he'll just score on you while you sit in the box.

I guess Wayne was protected by the fact that the NHL wasn't composed of morons...:biglaugh:

Secondly, it's quite clear, by examining the history of sports, that athletes hit their primes at different ages. I would say that Gretzky's prime was earlier on in his career.

Even discounting that though, Gretzky was still dominant after his departure from Edmonton. The 91 back injury certainly limited his productivity onward but the truly pertinent factor in Lemieux's longevity vs. Gretzky's rapidly declining skills was the fact that Wayne had some many more games on his body. The wear and tear of such a massive amount of NHL games wore him down. It didn't do that to Mario.

Most impressive though is Gretzky's ability to retain the highest PPG of all-time despite his career being far longer than Lemieux's... It's easier to keep a PPG high when you play less games.
 

armani

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Apr 8, 2005
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Jagr is one of the top-5 forwards of all-time IMHO.

Orr is the best D-man of all-time. PERIOD.

It's Orr for me.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Feb 27, 2002
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LOL............Frank who?

I guess you're right about the under-rated thing.:)

He was a star forward in the PCHA, was the leading scorer on the Seattle Metropolitans when they became the first American team to win the cup.

Lemieux never won a cup without Jagr either.
Except that Lemieux was the star and Conn Smythe winner of both cups. Jagr was a support player.
 

JCD

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I rank Gretzky as the 3rd best NHL forward.

The proof is in the fact that once Gretzky left Edmonton, his level of dominance greatly diminished -- IMO its b/c he was no longer being 'protected' to the extent he was with the Oilers.
He was still winning scoring titles, but nothing like the 50+ point seperations he used to have over the next highest scorers. Also, Gretzky was only 27 when he left so he was still EASILY in his prime.

Compare Lemieux to a post-Edm Gretzky and its an easy advantage to Lemieux......that even takes into account comparing them at the same age. In addition, Lemieux was like 1000x more injured.

I also take Howe over Gretzky because, in addition to his dominance and longevity, Howe fought his own battles. Imagine Gordie's (or Lemieux's) dominance if nobody ever layed a finger on them.

This is simply false. Gretzky was still putting up >2 points per game for his 1st 3 seasons in LA. Yes, it was down from the 2.5 he was putting up during his peak years, but he was still dominating the league.

The reason he wasn't running away with the scoring by 50 points had more to do with this guy named Mario entering the league and Wayne missing time due to his back injury than out than a significant drop-off in Wayne's play.

Wayne stopped notching 2+ points per game when he hit 30. Same age that Mario did, so saying Mario had a clear advantage is just false. More importantly, had Mario managed to play as many games as Wayne did in his career, he STILL wouldn't match Wayne in points.
 

Bring Back Bucky

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May 19, 2004
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WHen Toe was playing I knew one day guys like you would point to his stats and trophies.

Dude he had the easiset career of any athlete in history...he was protected by guys on and off the ice; the oilers were in the easiest division in league history and waltzed to the finals every year playing AHL level teams. The first time they won the cup they played the islanders who had been hammered by the habs...Oilers had a 9 day layoff - think that didnt help? I could go on....

I dont care how many goals he scored as a 10 year old, every nhler forward scored in bunches as a kid. Born in Jan he was the biggest kid on the ice until he was 15.

EVer see a slashing call against him?

I just know you were born yesterday...I dont hate a guy who I have in my top 20...only fanatics would think that


That must have been a bitter time for many, since it was the end of the era where there was an unwritten rule that teams had to let the habs win a cup every couple of years. Those were the days when there was a steadfast understanding that you had to let Smokey LeBedspins score so he could preserve enough dignity to find employment hawking sugary sports drinks and manhood enhancers to sustain a supply of pall malls and Dr. McGillcutty's Rootbeer schnapps during retirement.
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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I rank Gretzky as the 3rd best NHL forward.

The proof is in the fact that once Gretzky left Edmonton, his level of dominance greatly diminished -- IMO its b/c he was no longer being 'protected' to the extent he was with the Oilers.
He was still winning scoring titles, but nothing like the 50+ point seperations he used to have over the next highest scorers. Also, Gretzky was only 27 when he left so he was still EASILY in his prime.

Compare Lemieux to a post-Edm Gretzky and its an easy advantage to Lemieux......that even takes into account comparing them at the same age. In addition, Lemieux was like 1000x more injured.

I also take Howe over Gretzky because, in addition to his dominance and longevity, Howe fought his own battles. Imagine Gordie's (or Lemieux's) dominance if nobody ever layed a finger on them.

Gretzky did become less dominant after he left Edmonton but of course was still very, very Great in LA and still winning scoring titles.

But the 1993 playoffs showed Gretzky could still be the best player on the planet and bring his play to a level of domination that only he and few others have ever been able to do.

The whole "protected" thing with Gretzky is overrated. Gretzky was protected for sure but he was the smartest player ever and rarely put himself in positions he could be physically dominated. His hockey smarts are the reason he didn't get hit that often. People tried to lay him out they just never could.
 

nmbr_24

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Jun 8, 2003
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I lived outside of Boston in the late 60's, 70's and 80's, i would say I saw Orr play about 400 games if you include the games I saw on TV.
I have been living in Pittsburgh for a while, and I sawe quite a few games from Jagr when he was at his best.
IMHO Orr is quite a bit better than Jagr, Jagr is no slouch, he just isn't in the same class as Orr. Only Gretzky and Lemiuex are. I must have seen 300 games Jagr played, there is no comparison.
Jagr is a great player and I don't want to sound like I am saying he is not, I just put him in a class of player with the likes of Guy LaFluer, Maurice Richard, Mike Bossy, Steve Yzerman, Bobby Hull, every single one a hall of famer, just like Jagr.
 

chooch*

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I lived outside of Boston in the late 60's, 70's and 80's, i would say I saw Orr play about 400 games if you include the games I saw on TV.
I have been living in Pittsburgh for a while, and I sawe quite a few games from Jagr when he was at his best.
IMHO Orr is quite a bit better than Jagr, Jagr is no slouch, he just isn't in the same class as Orr. Only Gretzky and Lemiuex are. I must have seen 300 games Jagr played, there is no comparison.
Jagr is a great player and I don't want to sound like I am saying he is not, I just put him in a class of player with the likes of Guy LaFluer, Maurice Richard, Mike Bossy, Steve Yzerman, Bobby Hull, every single one a hall of famer, just like Jagr.

Fair enough, so you saw the Rocket play?

Putting Lafleur in the same class as an Izzerman or one dimensional Bossy weakens your analysis.
 

chooch*

Guest
Gretzky did become less dominant after he left Edmonton but of course was still very, very Great in LA and still winning scoring titles.

But the 1993 playoffs showed Gretzky could still be the best player on the planet and bring his play to a level of domination that only he and few others have ever been able to do.

The whole "protected" thing with Gretzky is overrated. Gretzky was protected for sure but he was the smartest player ever and rarely put himself in positions he could be physically dominated. His hockey smarts are the reason he didn't get hit that often. People tried to lay him out they just never could.

SensRule2011, you have a funny definition of domination, a guy who is a minus player on the year and leads the league in evenstrength goals against and has a McSorley on the ice to watch his back every shift. And yet...because he racks up some garbage points on a team with a losing record....well....Mary Hart agrees with you.

If you were imrpessed with 99's 93 playoffs youre a no hoper. Youre too far gone.
 

chooch*

Guest
Fair enough. He should be in a class with Serge Savard and Andy Capp, non?

Thank you for your gaittention but I'm not interested. perhps you can contact the federation. and please no more private emails form you or yoru mom. Thank you.
 

Bring Back Bucky

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May 19, 2004
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Thank you for your gaittention but I'm not interested. perhps you can contact the federation. and please no more private emails form you or yoru mom. Thank you.

Sorry, chaunch, but I'm sticking to the topics and keeping off the personal bit. And get some class, you don't talk about people's moms. Thanks in advance for getting some manners.
 

mcphee

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Feb 6, 2003
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Fair enough, so you saw the Rocket play?

Putting Lafleur in the same class as an Izzerman or one dimensional Bossy weakens your analysis.
Sit on my couch Chooch ? Let's talk, let's get to the bottom of this. You worshipped Guy Lafleur as a youngster. I don't blame you, he was a great player. I alos enjoyed watching him from his first game when they played him at C beteen Yvan and Frank, until the bitter end. He played with a flair like no other.

So, you feel strongly about him. Strongly enough that others who are fans of other players, often players who they were privileged to grow up watching, must be ridiculed. If someone loved Yzerman, you must call him Izzerman or decide Bossy, the great pure scorer, must be dismissed as one dimensional. Never mind the Isles season ticket holders who saw him develop from the skinny kid up from the Laval Nationals to a tremendous winger playing on a historic line. Yes, you must attack them because in being a fan of these players, they are somehow disrespecting Guy.

Now, it's getting to be tough sledding. Is it a feeling of being faithful to Lafleur's legacy, or more a sad need to be right ?

You seem resentful of McSorley and Semenko believing that they should devote themselves to making Wayne Gretzky's time on the ice as pleasant as possible. Imagine the 2 of them spending time hopelessly devoted to someone else. You know, like you and Guy.

The way I see it, admittedly, a disjointed and unsupportable view, Bobby Orr played a game different than the others on the ice. Not for long enough, but still, no one was like him. Mario,like Orr, could separate himself from everyone else, his combination of skill and size made him close to ustoppable. Gretzky couldn't match the skill for skill attributes that the others did,but with his incredible vision and understanding of the game, he accomplished more than either. The game is decided by the total of goals and no one created or scored more. You could easily choose any of those 3 as your greatest and wouldn't be wrong. Jagr's another wonderful player. You see him weave around checkers,power around a d man, and tuck the puck into an open side. Gretzky couldn't make that play, never. He would find a way though, and find it more often.

Yes, I know, western conference, weak, no checking, whooping it up after an empty net goal, bodyguards, maximizing your net worth by trading on the good name you've made for yourself, the cad, and today's latest, the born in January thing, [planned parenthood I'm sure, Walter you genetic engineeer you]

You don't really believe this stuff do you ? It's tired schtick isn't it ? What's your motivation ? Just curious, my wife's watching Ghost Whisperer and I had nothing else to do.
 

mcphee

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Feb 6, 2003
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Sorry to hear about your friend. Will the cookbook have a poutine recipe? Donairs and poutine actually go together. I met a HF member in Edmonton before game six and was amazed to watch him scarf a super donair AND a poutine.
Jim was 86, he didn't get cheated. I hadn't seen him in years, just remembered having to buy him a thesaurus to get him to quit using the C word in the office.

I'm going the healthy route for the recipes, poor kid lives on microwave stuff.
 

Bring Back Bucky

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May 19, 2004
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Sit on my couch Chooch ? Let's talk, let's get to the bottom of this. You worshipped Guy Lafleur as a youngster. I don't blame you, he was a great player. I alos enjoyed watching him from his first game when they played him at C beteen Yvan and Frank, until the bitter end. He played with a flair like no other.

So, you feel strongly about him. Strongly enough that others who are fans of other players, often players who they were privileged to grow up watching, must be ridiculed. If someone loved Yzerman, you must call him Izzerman or decide Bossy, the great pure scorer, must be dismissed as one dimensional. Never mind the Isles season ticket holders who saw him develop from the skinny kid up from the Laval Nationals to a tremendous winger playing on a historic line. Yes, you must attack them because in being a fan of these players, they are somehow disrespecting Guy.

Now, it's getting to be tough sledding. Is it a feeling of being faithful to Lafleur's legacy, or more a sad need to be right ?

You seem resentful of McSorley and Semenko believing that they should devote themselves to making Wayne Gretzky's time on the ice as pleasant as possible. Imagine the 2 of them spending time hopelessly devoted to someone else. You know, like you and Guy.

The way I see it, admittedly, a disjointed and unsupportable view, Bobby Orr played a game different than the others on the ice. Not for long enough, but still, no one was like him. Mario,like Orr, could separate himself from everyone else, his combination of skill and size made him close to ustoppable. Gretzky couldn't match the skill for skill attributes that the others did,but with his incredible vision and understanding of the game, he accomplished more than either. The game is decided by the total of goals and no one created or scored more. You could easily choose any of those 3 as your greatest and wouldn't be wrong. Jagr's another wonderful player. You see him weave around checkers,power around a d man, and tuck the puck into an open side. Gretzky couldn't make that play, never. He would find a way though, and find it more often.

Yes, I know, western conference, weak, no checking, whooping it up after an empty net goal, bodyguards, maximizing your net worth by trading on the good name you've made for yourself, the cad, and today's latest, the born in January thing, [planned parenthood I'm sure, Walter you genetic engineeer you]

You don't really believe this stuff do you ? It's tired schtick isn't it ? What's your motivation ? Just curious, my wife's watching Ghost Whisperer and I had nothing else to do.

It took two years for someone to draft this masterpiece. Post of the year.:clap:
 

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