Jagr or Orr?

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,958
1,774
Rostov-on-Don
Be honest, how many points would ORR put up today in this no hold, no hook, Ice Capades of a hockey league we're watching now?

Be honest.

:handclap:


Honestly....if Orr played today he'd probably be moved to forward. It's far to risky for a d-man (even of his talent) to consistantly lead the rush in todays game.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
Honestly....if Orr played today he'd probably be moved to forward. It's far to risky for a d-man (even of his talent) to consistantly lead the rush in todays game.
The beautiful part about Orr is he wasn't just a puck-rushing defenceman. He was a once-in-the-history-of-the-game all-round force. There has never been a player who has excelled in every aspect of the game like Bobby Orr. He wasn't just the best skater we've ever seen. He saw and thought the game at a level matched by few. He was great defensively. He was strong and he definitely wasn't afraid to be physical or block a shot.

He paved the way for guys like Park, Potvin, Robinson and Salming to play the way that they did. He made it possible for guys like Coffey and Housley to play the way that they did from the blue-line. One of the reasons that the 80s/early 90s were so offensive is that the game has never had so many offensively-capable defencemen. Why were defencemen putting up those numbers? Bobby Orr. The 80s are not as high-scoring if not for Bobby Orr.

And Nalyd Psycho was bang-on with his post earlier. The only thing (and it's a big thing) that Jagr hasn't done is be a marquee player on a Cup champion. And there's no more important piece for a hockey player's legacy than to be the best player/key player on a Cup champion.
 

trevchar1971

Registered User
Jun 1, 2006
509
0
The beautiful part about Orr is he wasn't just a puck-rushing defenceman. He was a once-in-the-history-of-the-game all-round force. There has never been a player who has excelled in every aspect of the game like Bobby Orr. He wasn't just the best skater we've ever seen. He saw and thought the game at a level matched by few. He was great defensively. He was strong and he definitely wasn't afraid to be physical or block a shot.

He paved the way for guys like Park, Potvin, Robinson and Salming to play the way that they did. He made it possible for guys like Coffey and Housley to play the way that they did from the blue-line. One of the reasons that the 80s/early 90s were so offensive is that the game has never had so many offensively-capable defencemen. Why were defencemen putting up those numbers? Bobby Orr. The 80s are not as high-scoring if not for Bobby Orr.

And Nalyd Psycho was bang-on with his post earlier. The only thing (and it's a big thing) that Jagr hasn't done is be a marquee player on a Cup champion. And there's no more important piece for a hockey player's legacy than to be the best player/key player on a Cup champion.[/QUOTE]

It's what every true superstar needs....validation.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,958
1,774
Rostov-on-Don
And Nalyd Psycho was bang-on with his post earlier. The only thing (and it's a big thing) that Jagr hasn't done is be a marquee player on a Cup champion. And there's no more important piece for a hockey player's legacy than to be the best player/key player on a Cup champion.

I'm not so sure.

Many seem to give Bourque a free pass on the fact he was never 'a marquee player' on a cup winning team -- yet, he's easily regarded within the top 5 d-men ever.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
I'm not so sure.

Many seem to give Bourque a free pass on the fact he was never 'a marquee player' on a cup winning team -- yet, he's easily regarded within the top 5 d-men ever.
Really? Bourque wasn't a "marquee player" on Colorado in 2001? Yeah, he was only a first-team all-star and a Norris finalist that year. Blake was the final missing piece for Colorado's roster, but no doubt about it, Bourque was a marquee player on that team. And Bourque was Boston's top player in 1988 and 1990 when they reached the Stanley Cup final. No team with Jagr as its best player has ever been past the second round.

I've often wondered whether Bourque would be No. 2 on more lists (ahead of Shore and Harvey) if he won more than one Cup? In the same breath, would Hull and Mikita be higher on more lists if they won more than one Cup? Would Hall and Hasek be the consensus top goalies ever if they won as many Cups as Sawchuk, Roy and Plante?

Keep in mind that Bourque also holds the record for consecutive appearances on a post-season all-star team.
 

NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS

Registered User
Feb 28, 2006
13,542
5,771
Blake was IMO only the third best defenseman during the cup run. Bourque was the main defender in pretty much every key situation. It's like saying Neidermayer wasnt a key player on the Devils since they had Stevens too.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,958
1,774
Rostov-on-Don
Really? Bourque wasn't a "marquee player" on Colorado in 2001? Yeah, he was only a first-team all-star and a Norris finalist that year. Blake was the final missing piece for Colorado's roster, but no doubt about it, Bourque was a marquee player on that team. And Bourque was Boston's top player in 1988 and 1990 when they reached the Stanley Cup final. No team with Jagr as its best player has ever been past the second round.

I've often wondered whether Bourque would be No. 2 on more lists (ahead of Shore and Harvey) if he won more than one Cup? In the same breath, would Hull and Mikita be higher on more lists if they won more than one Cup? Would Hall and Hasek be the consensus top goalies ever if they won as many Cups as Sawchuk, Roy and Plante?

Keep in mind that Bourque also holds the record for consecutive appearances on a post-season all-star team.

Regular season awards aren't relevant to this matter, Jagr has a ton too.
By marquee player, I meant what you and Nalyd earlier confirmed - best player/key player on a cup winning team....Bourque was never that. Best defensemen perhaps, but he never 'led' a team to the cup; which is what Jagr takes a lot of slack for despite being a key member on a cup winning team (especially in '92). Make no mistake, the Avs were Burnaby Joe's team.

Obviously its something more difficult for a d-man to do; but the point still stands. Heck, look no further than Lidstrom - he won a Conne Smythe.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
14
No Bandwagon
Visit site
Regular season awards aren't relevant to this matter, Jagr has a ton too.
By marquee player, I meant what you and Nalyd earlier confirmed - best player/key player on a cup winning team....Bourque was never that. Best defensemen perhaps, but he never 'led' a team to the cup; which is what Jagr takes a lot of slack for despite being a key member on a cup winning team (especially in '92). Make no mistake, the Avs were Burnaby Joe's team.

Obviously its something more difficult for a d-man to do; but the point still stands. Heck, look no further than Lidstrom - he won a Conne Smythe.

That's why I'm hesitant to put Bourque as a clear cut top 5 d-man. He's in that tier, but guys like Robinson, Lidstrom and Kelly have those great cup performances.

What really helps Bourque though is the 1990 playoffs.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,958
1,774
Rostov-on-Don
That's why I'm hesitant to put Bourque as a clear cut top 5 d-man. He's in that tier, but guys like Robinson, Lidstrom and Kelly have those great cup performances.

What really helps Bourque though is the 1990 playoffs.

I'm hesitant to put too much emphasis on cup victories - seeing that it's a team game. No matter how good you are, you must be given the opportunity AND have sufficient talent to work with in order to succeed. Lemieux never won anything until he had talent around him. In fact, the remaining Oilers didn't need Gretzky for them to win a cup (1990).
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
I'm hesitant to put too much emphasis on cup victories - seeing that it's a team game. No matter how good you are, you must be given the opportunity AND have sufficient talent to work with in order to succeed. Lemieux never won anything until he had talent around him. In fact, the remaining Oilers didn't need Gretzky for them to win a cup (1990).
But Lemieux's place in the game was really cemented by that 1991 Cup win. That was when people started to talk about him in the same breath as Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Hull, Richard, Beliveau, etc.

You mention Gretzky, but that was a much different Oiler team in 1990 than 1988. The two best players in the playoffs in 1990 were Ranford and Simpson. Ranford was a back-up in 1988. He was a Conn Smythe winner in 1990. Simpson was a really good player in 88 (did score 56 goals) but he was nowhere near as good in 1988 as he was in the 1990 playoffs. The Kid Line was there in 1990. Tikkanen played the best hockey of his career in the 1990 post-season. Messier was the Hart winner that year. It's not just a matter of they traded Gretzky, everyone stayed at the same level, and they won the Cup. A lot of guys played the best hockey of their career in that post-season.
 

KariyaIsGod*

Guest
In the '70s, Orr, in the '90s, Jagr.

By the way, I though a guy named Wayne Gretzky did pretty well too.

Don't mention him.

He's the 12th greatest player of all-time on chooch's list.

He's a hack and he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jagr...
 

Czech Your Math

I am lizard king
Jan 25, 2006
5,169
303
bohemia
If you go back 40 years to 1966, you end up picking up some prime years for guys like Hull & Mikita plus Howe & Beliveau still had some good NHL years left which surely pushes Jagr out of your top 5. It doesn't make since to rate players for a set period of time such as 40 or 35 years. Either rate them all time or don't rate them at all. As far as Chooch's premise that Jagr is better than Orr--Ridiculous!!

Basically, I'd go back to expansion, as it's a harder comparison when there are not only significantly shorter schedules, but only six teams in the league and perhaps more difference in ice time, etc. I wonder how many Cups Jagr may have won in a six team league, since he expended a lot of energy just getting mediocre Penguin teams to the playoffs.

Really don't see any of those players mentioned as significantly better than Jagr in peak or career offensive production, although it's highly unlikely Jagr has as long a career as Gordie Howe, and so probably won't eclipse Howe's adjusted totals. So the argument for those players comes down to defense, leadership, etc. which are hard to measure. Jagr's a +245, which doesn't compare to someone like Orr, but is still impressive and more so if you notice the absence of his various teammates on the all-time +/- leaders. He's won 2 Cups, has 67 goals and 155 points in the playoffs so far, has captained two NHL teams as well as Czech medalists, has won triple gold internationally, along with his 3 Pearsons, 5 Rosses, etc.

I don't put Jagr ahead of Orr, who was a fantastic and revolutionary player. I see Orr or Lemieux as the two best non-goalies of the past ~40 years and probably ever.
 
Last edited:

UvBnDatsyuked

Registered User
Apr 30, 2005
2,186
1
Not as close as some may believe.... Orr by a mile.

Agree. Not even close.

I catch myself not giving the respect many old timer's deserve. BUT Orr is the exception. Everything I read, video's I see, player interviews I watch - Clearly points to Orr as one of the best Hockey players and Athletes of ALL TIME
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
24,415
14
No Bandwagon
Visit site
I'm hesitant to put too much emphasis on cup victories - seeing that it's a team game. No matter how good you are, you must be given the opportunity AND have sufficient talent to work with in order to succeed. Lemieux never won anything until he had talent around him. In fact, the remaining Oilers didn't need Gretzky for them to win a cup (1990).

Cream rises to the top. Seriously. How many great players never win? Maybe if you run into dynasties, but Jagr plays in a dynasty-less era. Marcel Dionne failed to win a cup because Marcel Dionne failed to bring his best in the playoffs. Sure, a guys like Brad Park (particularly in '78) and Tony Esposito got the shaft, but they are the exception, not the rule.
 

One Winged Angel

You Can't Escape
May 3, 2006
16,531
3,454
Long Island
This isn't even debatable, Orr by a landslide.

Bobby Orr may have had the advantage of being the first defenseman to rush the puck from coast to coast and go deep into the offensive zone, but that still doesn't take away from the talent he had.

This is actually laughable.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,958
1,774
Rostov-on-Don
"It's far to(o) risky for a D-man"??

ORR wasn't just a "d-man"

:biglaugh:

amazing, do some research :shakehead


It's true. Orr would NOT be given free reign to roam all over the ice like he used to. Watch the old games....how many times was Orr deep in the offensive zone? It's suicide for a d-man to be caught there today. The game is not the simplistic north/south, stay in your lane, easy recovery game of old. I don't care how good Orr was defensively, someone that far out of position is too easy to exploit today. One turnover or small misque and its an odd man break the other way.
Today, his talents would be better suited at the forward position.

Orr was one of the best ever but let's not get carried away. He certainly didn't dominate all the time and on every shift. No player does...Gretzky, Lemieux, Kharlamov, Howe and Richard didn't either -- although that's what we like to remember them doing.
 

Jason MacIsaac

Registered User
Jan 13, 2004
22,221
5,936
Halifax, NS
Be honest, how many points would ORR put up today in this no hold, no hook, Ice Capades of a hockey league we're watching now?

Be honest.

:handclap:
A better question is how many points would Orr have with proper surgery and players not being able to hack at his knees. Niedermayer can put a point per game up, I say Orr would be over 2 points per game.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->