Jack Johnson or Jay Bouwmeester?

[Habruti!]

There is various aspects to this argument.. The first I would like to recall is that it can take a long time to build a top end defensive talent. While some players reach there peak at a younger age, some other take additional time. I am one of the believers that JBo will take some time but will get there. The reason he was drafted so high and the reason he is still seen as someone that can be the next great D is the attributes he had (and still has) when he was drafted. So far I would tend to agree that he has not shown the progression in his game that would make anyone think he will be the next big one... But its too early to write him off.

Pitkanen: Pitkanen is not over-hyped, I think he deserve every little bit that he is given. He will be a top Dmen in the NHL and his a very complete Dmen. Is he better then JBo... I actually do not think so, but if he is behind its not by far...


I actually think that J-Johnson would be better compared to if it was Pitkanen then if it was JBo IMO. I like the guy and his character, I would love if my team could get a stab at him in the next draft. Has many mentionned before, we will have to wait and see in his case.

 

[Liquidrage*]

I hate to say this but Sammy has a point. J-Bo's strength is difficult to measure. We only look at goals and assists. That should be an afterthought for a defenseman. J-Bo is a great skater and seems to stay with his man very well. He did have a disappointing year in SA. He seemed to play no better in the minors. It is reasonable to question but the Panthers make it difficult to shine. Let's see how he does this year. Shouldn't we expect more from Pitkanen on the Flyers than J-Bo on the Panthers? Just a thought... It IS a TEAM sport.

1st, if it isn't points what is Jay doing out there? It isn't great defense. It isn't physical play. Yeah, in a sprint he can stay with a guy. But hockey isn't a sprint. He gets lost out there like most young players.

2nd, it's a team game that's why you don't compare team records to compare prospects. JBo is in a much easier place to shine. Note I said shine. Not collect kudos for making the playoffs. If he was playing for Hitch in Philly the 1st time he made a mistake in a game he'd barely see the ice again. In Florida he was handed, handed not earned, ice time. Pitkanen was handed a spot on the roster but that's about it. When he made a mistake his butt sat on the bench for a long time. JBo got to play though his mistakes.

It's easier to win games on a good team. Not score points. Not be a great individual.

You have to look at Philly when you try to make that comparision. You can't just say "good team = easier time for rookie". It's anything but. It's actually "Hitch doesn't want to play your rookie ass because you're a rookie so if you mess up you're gone and if you want to see the ice you better not screw up".

 

[borro]

1st, if it isn't points what is Jay doing out there? It isn't great defense. It isn't physical play. Yeah, in a sprint he can stay with a guy. But hockey isn't a sprint. He gets lost out there like most young players.

2nd, it's a team game that's why you don't compare team records to compare prospects. JBo is in a much easier place to shine. Note I said shine. Not collect kudos for making the playoffs. If he was playing for Hitch in Philly the 1st time he made a mistake in a game he'd barely see the ice again. In Florida he was handed, handed not earned, ice time. Pitkanen was handed a spot on the roster but that's about it. When he made a mistake his butt sat on the bench for a long time. JBo got to play though his mistakes.

It's easier to win games on a good team. Not score points. Not be a great individual.

You have to look at Philly when you try to make that comparision. You can't just say "good team = easier time for rookie". It's anything but. It's actually "Hitch doesn't want to play your rookie ass because you're a rookie so if you mess up you're gone and if you want to see the ice you better not screw up".

Great points LiquidRage. JBO did get more icetime. That can be good and bad. It is easier to develop under an active mentor. In general, all things considered, it should be easier to play for the Flyers right now than the Panthers. Not a ton easier, but easier nonetheless.

 

[Macman]

Jay is no where near Top 12 RIGHT NOW amongst Canadian Dmen. No where. Like I said, if you believe so then explain Van Ryn's exclusion. Because for 2 years now, on the same exact team, he's been better.

I'm not going to offer and opinion on how Jay-Bo has fared in Florida because I haven't seen him enough there to know. All I know is Bouwmeester has not only played internationally for Canada but he's excelled internationally. Have we forgotten that he was named top defencemen at the world championships as an 18 year old? He also played extremely well at the World Cup when Jovo went down. Obviously Hockey Canada sees something in the guy that you don't and they've been proven right. Top 12 in Canada? It's pretty obvious he is.

 

[Liquidrage*]

I'm not going to offer and opinion on how Jay-Bo has fared in Florida because I haven't seen him enough there to know. All I know is Bouwmeester has not only played internationally for Canada but he's excelled internationally. Have we forgotten that he was named top defencemen at the world championships as an 18 year old? He also played extremely well at the World Cup when Jovo went down. Obviously Hockey Canada sees something in the guy that you don't and they've been proven right. Top 12 in Canada? It's pretty obvious he is.

No. You just haven't read what I posted througout this thread. You think I'm arguing that Jay isn't a good pick for Team Canada. I've come right out and plainly said he's a good pick. Smart move on Canada's part.

What I have said is you just can't take his inclusion on Team Canada and use it as proof that he's one of the Top 12 Canadian Dmen playing in the NHL right now.
He isn't. There are lots of Canadian Dmen that right now are better. That most likely won't be true in a few years.

But Canada is smart to put him on the team. He's young and talented and just like there should be room on any NHL teams' roster for a blue-chip prospect or two or three, the same IMO should go for the National teams. Get the kids you know (or at least hope) will be the cornerstone of the team for years to come some exposure and experience. I think it's a great idea and a team like Canada can easily afford to do it with all the talent they have.

But arguing that Jay is Top 12 in the NHL amongst Canadian Dmen is rediculous. He just played 2 years in the NHL. He's play wasn't even close to that level. We don't need to base it on Canada putting him on the team. We can actually judge his play in the NHL. Where he hasn't scored a lot of points, he doesn't hit people, he doesn't play great defense, and he still was prone to young-dmen mistakes (just like every other dmen around his age typically is).

 

[Lauser3*]

Jacques Martin (Florida's coach) is on Team Canada...I'm sure he's got no pull with them though right? Laters.

 

[easton122]

JBO's hype is greater than Pitkanen.

JBO has done absolutely nothing to prove he is better than Pitkanen.

At this point after seeing what JBO brings to the table even if he starts developing nicely next year I would probably go with Jack Johnson. That is unfair to JBO because I prefer Johnson for his physical play moreso than anything else.

I agree with Liquidrage that these Top 12 Canadian defensemen comments are absurd. I mean put any of Canada's top defensemen at the AHL level and see what happens. Put JBO in the AHL and he's the same player he is in the NHL which IMO is regressing. Put JBO on a team loaded with superstars like Team Canada and all he has to do is not screw up. He didn't thrive like Pitkanen did running the PP last year for Philly on a cup contender. Pitkanen had a lot of defensive mistakes and lack luster physical play last year. This year in the AHL Pitkanen had John Slaney, Dennis Seidenberg, Freddy Meyer, and Randy Jones all as other offensive defensemen. Pitkanen saw his situation and adopted. If that doesn't deserve praise than I don't know what does. Pitkanen changed from a PP QB to a shutdown physical defensive defensemen. He threw big hits and shutdown top AHL players. He also provided 39 points or so on the board while experimenting.

Yes, it can be argued that JBO is a slow developer and I agree he is. You can use that argument for the future but you can't use it now. You can't say JBO is better than Van Ryn or Pitkanen because it's not really close.

 

[faucette78]

The coach of the Chicago Wolves just mentioned in a radio interview that "with out J-Bo we do not make it as far in the playoffs." But I don't really think that he knows what he is talking about. The funny thing about this thread is that it has become a j-Bo bashing thread. j-bo has work to do on his offence, but the tools are there and he will get better. J-jon is a good looking prospect, but lets wait and see about him before we really make any predictions.

 

[Til the End of Time]

There might be some truth to the statement "defensemen take longer to develop."

 

[ZombieMatt]

I refute any notion that the Canadian team selected Bouwmeester solely because he was young. This is CANADA. The nation which undeniably has the greatest defensive depth of all hockey playing nations. This is not a nation who needs to build its team up, band them together for a few years, and hope for a successful run in 4-5 years. This is a team which is the favourite going into every single major hockey competition. It has more than its fair share at every single conceivable age group that you may want to break it into. There is absolutely no need to take Bouwmeester over a guy who is, according to you, better, and *gasp* over the hill at 26 or 29. The Canadian team takes the best players for the roles which it wants to fill. This whole "wants to break them in" idea is a crock. Where was Rick Nash at the World Cup? Don't you think they'd want to break in the best goal scorer from the previous season? Get him some experience? Get him into some games. Get ready because all those 30 year olds are done and beyond their usefulness? Come on, give your head a shake. IF a decision was made to move him onto the team SOLELY because of his age, he might have skipped over two or three guys on the depth chart. He came on to the team because of a few injuries, skip him up a few spots, that still puts him basically in the top 12 according to Hockey Canada.

The team that selects Jack Johnson will be pleased if he develops into the calibre of defenceman that is chosen for a (non age specific) Canadian national team. And if he does it by the age of 20, he will have exceeded expectations.

Frankly, if Bouwmeester sucks half as much as some people are trying to claim, than why the hell would the strongest hockey nation in the world choose him for their team...furthermore give him substantial minutes, regardless of how old he is. It does not make any practical sense. Team Canada isn't exactly hurting for star defencemen. I could understand your argument if you were talking about Germany (no offence intended to Seidenberg and Ehrhoff) or heck, even the US's lacklustre defence.

 

[Liquidrage*]

There might be some truth to the statement "defensemen take longer to develop."

Absolutely. Especially in today's (read: Up until this year, we'll have to see what happens when they get back on the ice with new rules), where there is such an emphasis on defense and positional play and scorings been way down.

I don't think until a dman is around 23-24 and has a few years under his belt in the NHL can you really begin to make fair evaluations. And even then it's possible that at a later year they could just *get it* and all of a sudden be the player people wanted all along.

I'm interested to see just how much the rule changes and "philosphy" changes effect young dmen. Leetch had 71 points in 68 games as a 21 year old. I just don't think that's been possible in the league for several years now. But it might be that the young and offensively talented dmen that come into the league get more of an opportunity to shine with the changes. Of course, that red-line removal could back fire and we see coaches that teach their young guys to play so far back as to not get caught that it's actually counter-productive. Hope that doesn't happen, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[espo*]

YES!!

I refute any notion that the Canadian team selected Bouwmeester solely because he was young. This is CANADA. The nation which undeniably has the greatest defensive depth of all hockey playing nations. This is not a nation who needs to build its team up, band them together for a few years, and hope for a successful run in 4-5 years. This is a team which is the favourite going into every single major hockey competition. It has more than its fair share at every single conceivable age group that you may want to break it into. There is absolutely no need to take Bouwmeester over a guy who is, according to you, better, and *gasp* over the hill at 26 or 29. The Canadian team takes the best players for the roles which it wants to fill. This whole "wants to break them in" idea is a crock. Where was Rick Nash at the World Cup? Don't you think they'd want to break in the best goal scorer from the previous season? Get him some experience? Get him into some games. Get ready because all those 30 year olds are done and beyond their usefulness? Come on, give your head a shake. IF a decision was made to move him onto the team SOLELY because of his age, he might have skipped over two or three guys on the depth chart. He came on to the team because of a few injuries, skip him up a few spots, that still puts him basically in the top 12 according to Hockey Canada.

The team that selects Jack Johnson will be pleased if he develops into the calibre of defenceman that is chosen for a (non age specific) Canadian national team. And if he does it by the age of 20, he will have exceeded expectations.

Frankly, if Bouwmeester sucks half as much as some people are trying to claim, than why the hell would the strongest hockey nation in the world choose him for their team...furthermore give him substantial minutes, regardless of how old he is. It does not make any practical sense. Team Canada isn't exactly hurting for star defencemen. I could understand your argument if you were talking about Germany (no offence intended to Seidenberg and Ehrhoff) or heck, even the US's lacklustre defence.

 

[easton122]

Canada is awesome

and

JBO got robbed in the Norris race last season

 

[Epsilon]

JBO got robbed in the Norris race last season

I hope you're being sarcastic.

 

[Liquidrage*]

Frankly, if Bouwmeester sucks half as much as some people are trying to claim, than why the hell would the strongest hockey nation in the world choose him for their team...furthermore give him substantial minutes, regardless of how old he is. It does not make any practical sense. Team Canada isn't exactly hurting for star defencemen. I could understand your argument if you were talking about Germany (no offence intended to Seidenberg and Ehrhoff) or heck, even the US's lacklustre defence.

He doesn't suck. He's young.

If it was soley based on his level of play, then you need to explain why Van Ryn wasn't selected? Not to mention many other Canadian dmen who have out performed him in the NHL the last two years.

Lilja isn't Canadian but he's not even a legit NHL player that out performed JBo two years ago on the same team. I don't think you'd argue he was Team Canda material. Van Ryn last year outperformed him.
Now, mind, I think that's totally OK and JBo has all the talent to eventually blow these guys off the radar. But you can't tell me that "right now" he's one of Canada's best in the NHL.

I suppose you could argue that Jay's style of play is perfectly suited to the international game and in terms of matching that style he's one of the Top 12. I don't really believe it, but you could take that approach.
But if that's so, it really doesn't belong in this thread unless I assumed wrong and the comparisions weren't for their future in the NHL but for international play.

In the NHL, what has he proven so far? He hasn't scored much, he doesn't hit, his defense hasn't been great.


For two years in a row, his only two years in the league, he's had the worst +/- on his team. Overall he's ranked 79th and 91st in points amogst defensemen in points in his two years.
In 18 playoff games this year in the AHL he scored ZERO points. He again, had the worst +/- on his AHL team for the year. So in his last three years of professional hockey he's had the worst +/- on his entire team. He had less points in the regular season then Krajicek and Kwiatkowski, two other dmen on his own team. Overall, in AHL defensemen he ranked 36th.

Does that REALLY sound like a Team Canada resume to you?
You can argue stats don't tell the whole story, but please. I mean, that's pretty bad. They can at least tell part of the story, and the story they tell as of now doesn't scream Team Canada.
To me, none of that stuff is horrid. I definitely think people could make the case that he hasn't lived up to expectations yet. But I certainly wouldn't even be close to panic mode with him yet (calling Lauser, come in Lauser. Please be patient Lauser ). He's a young dman. But that certainly isn't the resume one would expect for Team Canada. Yet, because of his age and talent, I still think it's good to get guys like him envolved early.

 

[Puckhead]

JBO doesnt get much praise for neing on Florida, because the truth is it doesnt matter who is playing D on that team the whole team is young and inexperienced. There have been precious few D men who can come into the league and dominate. Look no further than the horse Pronger. It is a position that must be learned and it takes time to master. I have every confidence that JBO will be a dominate player in this league. As for the Martin comparison, that is just irrelevant. Martin has had the opportunity to play on one of, if not the best defensive team in the league over the last decade. Do you think if their fortunes were to be swapped that Martin would have done anything to garner praise on the Panthers? The fact is, JBO takes the heat, because he was expected to be Bobby Orr right out of the blocks, playing on a piss poor team while logging no 1 minutes and expected to make them what? a contender? Give him the time he needs and he will be a dominte D in this league. As for Johnson, I can't discount his skills, but only time will tell. The only real comparison that can be made that is somewhat accurate is comparing Bouwmeester to Johnson at the same points in their respected lives, and that is what they were able to do in their teens. To compare who will be better in 6 to 8 years, when judging them at the most difficult position to learn, is ludicrous. There are way too many intangibles like the team they play for, their teammates, their coaches, and their health. Best of luck to both of them and may they both become as dominant as we all make them up to be one day.

Any World Championship played on bigger ice shouldn't really matter (World Championships) and JBO played on an all-star team for the World Cup so all he had to do was be there and not screw up to garner praise.

The funny thing is Martin is 2 years older than JBO just like JBO is 2 years older than Jack Johnson. Martin has shown more at the NHL stage just like JBO has shown more at the NHL stage than Johnson. JBO is not definitely or way better than Johnson. He has had the opportunity to play on a team that wouldn't dare scratch him no matter what he did and now he has played on a team destined for the AHL championship but brought nothing to the table to help the team.

JBO = Being on the right teams at the right time. He's there but doesn't do too much and he gets a helluva lot of praise for it too...

 

[Puckhead]

I refute any notion that the Canadian team selected Bouwmeester solely because he was young. This is CANADA. The nation which undeniably has the greatest defensive depth of all hockey playing nations. This is not a nation who needs to build its team up, band them together for a few years, and hope for a successful run in 4-5 years. This is a team which is the favourite going into every single major hockey competition. It has more than its fair share at every single conceivable age group that you may want to break it into. There is absolutely no need to take Bouwmeester over a guy who is, according to you, better, and *gasp* over the hill at 26 or 29. The Canadian team takes the best players for the roles which it wants to fill. This whole "wants to break them in" idea is a crock. Where was Rick Nash at the World Cup? Don't you think they'd want to break in the best goal scorer from the previous season? Get him some experience? Get him into some games. Get ready because all those 30 year olds are done and beyond their usefulness? Come on, give your head a shake. IF a decision was made to move him onto the team SOLELY because of his age, he might have skipped over two or three guys on the depth chart. He came on to the team because of a few injuries, skip him up a few spots, that still puts him basically in the top 12 according to Hockey Canada.

The team that selects Jack Johnson will be pleased if he develops into the calibre of defenceman that is chosen for a (non age specific) Canadian national team. And if he does it by the age of 20, he will have exceeded expectations.

Frankly, if Bouwmeester sucks half as much as some people are trying to claim, than why the hell would the strongest hockey nation in the world choose him for their team...furthermore give him substantial minutes, regardless of how old he is. It does not make any practical sense. Team Canada isn't exactly hurting for star defencemen. I could understand your argument if you were talking about Germany (no offence intended to Seidenberg and Ehrhoff) or heck, even the US's lacklustre defence.

Very well put Matt. The fact that Canada could conceivably put together two medal caliber teams, and I realize that there are injuries and sometimes the best guys choose not to go, but the fact is JBO deserved to be on that team, and even if he never touched the ice, the powers that be on Canada's management team recognize that Bouwmeester will be their horse of the future and that it would be in the nations best interest to have him soak up as much experience as he could. The fact that he did not look out of place at his tender age, speaks volumes.

 

[Macman]

Does that REALLY sound like a Team Canada resume to you?
You can argue stats don't tell the whole story, but please. I mean, that's pretty bad. They can at least tell part of the story, and the story they tell as of now doesn't scream Team Canada.
To me, none of that stuff is horrid. I definitely think people could make the case that he hasn't lived up to expectations yet. But I certainly wouldn't even be close to panic mode with him yet (calling Lauser, come in Lauser. Please be patient Lauser ). He's a young dman. But that certainly isn't the resume one would expect for Team Canada. Yet, because of his age and talent, I still think it's good to get guys like him envolved early.

His resume internationally has been exceptional and that's why he continues to be picked for Team Canada, and rightly so. It's like the people who crap on Eric Brewer when he gets picked for Canada and he goes out there every time and plays great and has the gold medals to show for it. Have you seen Bouwmeester play internationally? When he was named the top defenceman at the worlds two years it wasn't a fluke. He was exceptional. Playing poorly for a Florida team that plays poorly as a whole doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. Obviously not to Hockey Canada, anyway.

 

[Liquidrage*]

His resume internationally has been exceptional and that's why he continues to be picked for Team Canada, and rightly so. It's like the people who crap on Eric Brewer when he gets picked for Canada and he goes out there every time and plays great and has the gold medals to show for it. Have you seen Bouwmeester play internationally? When he was named the top defenceman at the worlds two years it wasn't a fluke. He was exceptional. Playing poorly for a Florida team that plays poorly as a whole doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. Obviously not to Hockey Canada, anyway.

He's played no better and often worse then his peers on the same team that are not consider good let alone great players. You can't blame it on Florida when there's other D on Florida playing better. You can't blame it on San Antonio when other people D on the same team played better. You can't blame it on Chicago that he scored zero points in 18 playoff games. That was probably the best team in the AHL sans the Phantoms.

And while your point (which I myself mentioned as an angle people could take) about him playing better Internationally then in the NHL style of game is at the very least a valid angle, it doesn't justify people using him being on Team Canada as a sign that he's already great in the NHL. Which is basically how it came up.

You can't tell me someone that hasn't done crap in the NHL is already a great NHL player. You could tell me that you believe he will one day be a great NHL player. But saying he is right now is not accurate. He could be selected for Team Universe, and in the NHL he still hasn't done anything worth noting for a prospect of his credentials.

 

[Lauser3*]

His resume internationally has been exceptional and that's why he continues to be picked for Team Canada, and rightly so. It's like the people who crap on Eric Brewer when he gets picked for Canada and he goes out there every time and plays great and has the gold medals to show for it. Have you seen Bouwmeester play internationally? When he was named the top defenceman at the worlds two years it wasn't a fluke. He was exceptional. Playing poorly for a Florida team that plays poorly as a whole doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. Obviously not to Hockey Canada, anyway.

Olli Jokinen, Mike Van Ryn, and Roberto Luongo (you've heard of him right? the guy that was nominated for the Vezina Trophy in the last NHL season), all played on that same "poorly playing" team in Florida. Yet, they all had good seasons. As did Joel Kwiatkowski in San Antonio. As Andreas Lilja did during Jaystine's first pro year. If he breaks out next season, great.....but that's not going to change the three previous pro years where he hasn't played well. Consistency will determine whether he turns out to be a good player or not...but I can't believe the Bobby Orr comparisons are coming back? Are you f---ing kidding me? Not even close...he looks more and more like Mike Rathje out there. Not Bobby Orr or Chris Pronger...they play completely different styles altogher.

 

[Macman]

He's played no better and often worse then his peers on the same team that are not consider good let alone great players. You can't blame it on Florida when there's other D on Florida playing better. You can't blame it on San Antonio when other people D on the same team played better. You can't blame it on Chicago that he scored zero points in 18 playoff games. That was probably the best team in the AHL sans the Phantoms.

And while your point (which I myself mentioned as an angle people could take) about him playing better Internationally then in the NHL style of game is at the very least a valid angle, it doesn't justify people using him being on Team Canada as a sign that he's already great in the NHL. Which is basically how it came up.

You can't tell me someone that hasn't done crap in the NHL is already a great NHL player. You could tell me that you believe he will one day be a great NHL player. But saying he is right now is not accurate. He could be selected for Team Universe, and in the NHL he still hasn't done anything worth noting for a prospect of his credentials.

We're arguing apples and oranges, I guess. I haven't seen him enough in Florida and you obviously haven't seen him internationally because they sound like entirely different players.

 

[Crossbar]

The first I would like to recall is that it can take a long time to build a top end defensive talent. While some players reach there peak at a younger age, some other take additional time.

Good luck trying to explain that to the J-Bo haters.


I'll say it again, different players develope differently. Bouwmeester was rushed to the NHL straight out of Juniors, while Pitkanen (not by choice) stayed an extra year in Finland, which actually might've been beneficial for his developement.

You want to talk about instability in a organization? Since entering the NHL, Bouwmeester has gone through 3 (THREE) different head coaches (Mike Keenan and Rick Dudley/John Torchetti) all in a single season mind you, as well as 3 different assistant coaches (Mike Pelino, John Torchetti and Steve Ludzik). Keep in mind, the season prior to Bouwmeester's arrival, also did not start and finish with the same coaches (head coach Duane Sutter was replaced by Mike Keenan and newly hired assistant coaches Paul Baxter and George Kingston, then they were fired and replaced by John Torchetti and recently fired Duane Sutter at the end of the season). So let's total it up, that's 4 different head coaches (D.Sutter, Keenan, Dudley and Torchetti), 6 different assistant coaches (Baxter, Kingston, D.Sutter, Pelino, Torchetti and Ludzik) and 3 different General Managers (Torrey/Fletcher and Dudley) in a span of 3 seasons. With Jacques Martin, Guy Charron, a still unnamed assistant coach and Keenan now taking over as GM, it's about to be 5 coaches, 8 assistants and 4 general managers. I don't care how highly touted a player is, that typically is not the right stable environment to bring up ANY 18-19 year old player, unless at LEAST the right supporting cast is there (which it definitely wasn't for Florida). Then Bouwmeester is suddenly forced to play as the team's #1 defenseman? Yeah ok, no pressure there! If there are some highly touted rookie defensemen that have been able to shine through those same expectations in the past, then good for them, they beat the odds.......not every player is the same.

Meanwhile a stud prospect like Pitkanen, plays for the same Flyer management for the entire season and plays with a dominant supporting cast that made the playoffs every year prior to Joni's arrival......you're going to tell me that's not a major luxury to have??? To bring Joni up steadily, with the right veterans there teaching him, instead of being thrown to the dogs like Bouwmeester was put through?? Sure thing. I would've killed to have any ONE of Ragnarsson, Johnsson, Desjardins, Weinrich, Markov or Malakhov on the Panthers, let alone that entire group as our defensive core.....or Roenick, Recchi, Primeau, LeClair, Amonte, ect. as our forward core, lol there is just no comparison.

As for Mike Van Ryn outperforming Bouwmeester, so what? The guy was 24 years old that season and taken 4 drafts prior to Bouwmeester's draft year, it was about time, 'nuff said. IMO the only guy on the team close enough for a legit side-by-side comparison, that outplayed Jay offensively is Lukas Krajicek.....but Krajicek didn't play straight out of Juniors like Jay did (in fact, he stayed as an overager) and he was both FAR less physical and defensively sound than Jay was.

As for Bouwmeester and Team Canada, as I recall, it was his performance where he was named best d-man of the tourney, that earned him a spot on Team Canada's roster the following year. As the previous poster mentioned, when injury hit Canada's roster, Jay was given a chance and did not look out of place.....so much so that he remained on the roster the rest of the way. So what if Jay was a replacement player, sometimes that's all it takes. Just look at Vincent Lecavalier taking over (Yzerman's?) spot due to injury and then receiving MVP of the tourney.

 

[Pepper]

I'll say it again, different players develope differently. Bouwmeester was rushed to the NHL straight out of Juniors, while Pitkanen (not by choice) stayed an extra year in Finland, which actually might've been beneficial for his developement.

What do you mean 'not by choice'??

 

[Crossbar]

What do you mean 'not by choice'??

Didn't Joni have to stay in Finland because of military duties or something?

 

[espo*]

Canada is awesome

and

JBO got robbed in the Norris race last season

THX.You're right..............they are awesome.