Jack Johnson or Jay Bouwmeester?

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Captain Conservative

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arnie said:
Johnson isn't even close to being in Bouwmeester's class. It seems like a lot of people respond to who is getting the most hype 2 hours ago. But Johnson is just a good prospect, but far from a conmsensus #2 in this upcoming mediocre draft. Bouwmeester was consensus #1 in the best top 4 picks in years. Bouwmeester had been the consensus #1 for 2 years before that draft!. It isn't even close.

Johnson is the consensus #2 in a draft containing the best prospect to come along in 10 years. Show me a ranking that doesn't have him 2nd, please, other than the nutballs at redline report who have :confused: Jack Skille :confused: ahead of him.
 

Hab Fan

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Captain Conservative said:
Johnson is the consensus #2 in a draft containing the best prospect to come along in 10 years. Show me a ranking that doesn't have him 2nd, please, other than the nutballs at redline report who have :confused: Jack Skille :confused: ahead of him.
Johnson has done everything asked of him, how about leading scorer in NTDP history for Dmen, leading in penalties also. Being left off WJRS last year was purely political, everyone with half a brain knows that. USA hockey didn't want ANYBODY to upstage kessel. USA hockey is trying desperately to counter Canada and Crasby with Kessel. Guess what USA, you blew it! Kessel is not even on the same planet with Sid and Johnson for that fact. Any team with brains will take Mueller over Kessel next year. Johnson and any comparisons are not fair to anyone, let the kid develop.
 

neg marron

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j-jo

trojan4 said:
Both Top Defensemen from their Draft Class... which player will have a better career and what star defensemen would you compare them to?

i think johnson is the real deal ,
j-bo is made of glass

can't wait to see the two of them head to head
let's see how j-bo responds to an open ice johnson hip check

the only edge j-bo has is that he's older and has more playing experience

but once johnson plays in the nhl that will be irrelevant
johnson will be a classic ideally playing with komisarek would be ideal
hopefully he'll go to the habs or the wings
 

Poochie_D

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J-Bo hasnt lived up to anything yet. Offensively hes produced nothing and defensively hes been average at best. Id rather take the risk of " a guy with no NHL experience"
 

Lauser3*

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Wally112pac said:
Jbo played for Canada in the World Cup.

He's also 1 of 36 players invited to their training and orientation camp this summer.

I'll take him.

Undeserving...the World Cup seems to be more and more like the All-Star game when it comes to the choosing of its players. After the last pro season he just had (what was it...scoreless in 25 straight games by the end of the Calder Cup?), he never should have been considered. Complete BS. But hey, he still has to make Team Canada first so let's wait and see...BTW, at this point, I rather take my chances with Johnson. Laters.
 

Zine

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Captain Conservative said:
Any sane person would clearly have to choose Jay Bouwmeester over Jack Johnson. Jay Bouwmeester is one of the top 6 or 7 Canadian defencemen playing hockey right now and starred for them at the World Championships and was a part of the winning World Cup Effort. Regardless of any error in team management, Johnson didn't even make the United States Junior squad. Of course, Bouwmeester has a 3 year head start on Jack. In 2 years we'll have a MUCH clearer idea of how Jack Johnson stacks up to Jay Bouwmeester.

While I'd take him over Johnson, let's not get carried away - Bouwmeester is nowhere near Canada's top 6 or 7 d-men. At least not yet.
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
Undeserving...the World Cup seems to be more and more like the All-Star game when it comes to the choosing of its players. After the last pro season he just had (what was it...scoreless in 25 straight games by the end of the Calder Cup?), he never should have been considered. Complete BS. But hey, he still has to make Team Canada first so let's wait and see...BTW, at this point, I rather take my chances with Johnson. Laters.

I trust Gretzky's and Co judgement.

You obviously don't. :dunno:
 

allelsefails

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If I'm looking for a Dman, it's Jay-Bo. Simply more proven.

If I'm looking for a #1 Dman, right now it's Jack-Jo. He's got the physical edge, heart and potential I want for a #1 Dman. He was very solid in the small handful of games I was able to see.

In contrast, the only scenario where Jay-Bo has excelled was playing for Team Canada, in which he was a complimentary player. Put him on a team where he is the go-to guy on the blueline and he has been mediocre. This past AHL season was extremely dissapointing for him, IMO. He never seemed to take charge when on the ice and, though points aren't the end all - be all for defensemen, he didn't show the offense everyone has been claiming he will have.
 

ZombieMatt

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I'm not certain where the controversy is. JJ may be a great prospect, but Jay Bouwmeester is one of Canada's top 12 defencemen RIGHT NOW. This guy turns 22 on September 27 and has 2 full years of NHL experience under his belt, playing for a very bad team (would have been three). Keep in mind he's years away from the peak of his development curve, and personally, if I'm a team that drafts JJ, I'd be happy if he EVER is as good as J-Bo is right now.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Matt MacInnis said:
I'm not certain where the controversy is. JJ may be a great prospect, but Jay Bouwmeester is one of Canada's top 12 defencemen RIGHT NOW. This guy turns 22 on September 27 and has 2 full years of NHL experience under his belt, playing for a very bad team (would have been three). Keep in mind he's years away from the peak of his development curve, and personally, if I'm a team that drafts JJ, I'd be happy if he EVER is as good as J-Bo is right now.

What he said.
 

Form and Substance

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I don't think J johnson's offense will ever truly pan out thus jay-bo takes the cake albeit very marginally. But who I'd want on my team in a playoff game, it's going to be Jjohnson.
 

loadie

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Matt MacInnis said:
I'm not certain where the controversy is. JJ may be a great prospect, but Jay Bouwmeester is one of Canada's top 12 defencemen RIGHT NOW. This guy turns 22 on September 27 and has 2 full years of NHL experience under his belt, playing for a very bad team (would have been three). Keep in mind he's years away from the peak of his development curve, and personally, if I'm a team that drafts JJ, I'd be happy if he EVER is as good as J-Bo is right now.

Ditto.
 

Pepper

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Rabid Ranger said:
I guess it depends on what you define as an accomplishment. There has to be some reason he's the top ranked defenseman in this draft, and according to more than one source the 2nd ranked prospect. As for Ovechkin, yeah he's played at a high level at every level except the one that matters most: The NHL.

What has Johnson accomplished so far?? IMHO he hasn't done anything.
 

Habs Icing

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Hab Fan said:
USA hockey didn't want ANYBODY to upstage kessel. USA hockey is trying desperately to counter Canada and Crasby with Kessel. Guess what USA, you blew it! Kessel is not even on the same planet with Sid and Johnson for that fact. Any team with brains will take Mueller over Kessel next year.


I know this is a J.B vs J.J. post but I couldn't let this pass. Kessel is on the same planet as Sid. This kid, Kessel, will blow your socks off once he reaches the NHL.

As for J.B. vs J.J. Two extremely different kinds of dmen.
 

Liquidrage*

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How is Jay one of Canada's Top 12 defesemen right now? I'd like to see someone actually attempt to support that.

I just don't see that or even close.

if I'm a team that drafts JJ, I'd be happy if he EVER is as good as J-Bo is right now.

So you'd be happy if you drafted a dman #2 overall and his max is he doesn't contribute points at all, he doesn't play rough or physical, and his defense isn't even average by NHL standards?
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Liquidrage said:
How is Jay one of Canada's Top 12 defesemen right now? I'd like to see someone actually attempt to support that.

I just don't see that or even close.

Not even close? Then obviously Team Canada disagrees with you, and so do I as a matter of fact.

Liquidrage said:
So you'd be happy if you drafted a dman #2 overall and his max is he doesn't contribute points at all,

Jay Bouwmeester scored 20 points in his latest NHL season. That was good enough for 79th among defensemen, which placed him in the top half as a 20 years old in his second season in the league only.

You call that "no points", I call that an ignorant statement.

I don't think a single defensemen who scored more than him that year was younger. Only a handful were in his age range.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

Liquidrage said:
he doesn't play rough or physical,

No argument there. But that is only an issue because it has been continually brought up by whiners and repeated by impressionable fans. I do hope he'll improve on that.

Liquidrage said:
and his defense isn't even average by NHL standards?

Goes with the rest of your post: off base completely. Jay's defense is not a worry at all. He's not a world-class shutdown as of now but he was solid. Considering his age and experience, he's on track.
 

Liquidrage*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Not even close? Then obviously Team Canada disagrees with you, and so do I as a matter of fact.

So you think Van Ryn is what, about #8? He's played two years on the same team as JBo and has *clearly* been better.

Putting JBo on the team was more for the future then now. They had to have some u-22's. And even without it, it's still a smart idea to put some kids on the team for the future.

You saying "Team Canada disagrees" is a very shallow point. It's as if you're chuckling as you say it.


Jay Bouwmeester scored 20 points in his latest NHL season. That was good enough for 79th among defensemen, which placed him in the top half as a 20 years old in his second season in the league only.

You call that "no points", I call that an ignorant statement.

Take age 100% out of this. No, don't reply that it matters. It doesn't. Go back and read the previous posts before doing so. Because the reply's context was if JJ TOPPED OUT where JBo is now.

So yeah, I'll call the guy ranking 79th "no point". .3 PPG isn't very good to me. 2 goals in 68 games isn't very good to me.

Not to mention that in this year's AHL playoffs he LITERALLY scored "no points". In like 20+ games.

I don't think a single defensemen who scored more than him that year was younger. Only a handful were in his age range.

Again, this is your strawman that isn't based on the context of the discussion.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

Sorry buddy. But you're off here. The facts are that *right now* JBo isn't in the Top 12 of Canadian dmen. He's been outplayed two years in a row by another Canadian Dman that no one would even come close to putting into this discussion. He's coming off an AHL playoffs where he was steady in a "future career AHLer" kinda way. Note, there's no way he's going to be only that. Just that was how he played apparently. And "not interested" isn't an excuse. I couldn't imagine any top NHL player being interested, yet I couldn't picture any of them not producing more.


No argument there. But that is only an issue because it has been continually brought up by whiners and repeated by impressionable fans. I do hope he'll improve on that.

It's an issue because some people expect more .

Goes with the rest of your post: off base completely. Jay's defense is not a worry at all. He's not a world-class shutdown as of now but he was solid. Considering his age and experience, he's on track.

I agree he's on track. But the #2 overall pick in this years draft tops out at where JBo is now on defense, that isn't good.

But really, considering you completely missed the context of the discussion and kept throwing age into it, which is 100% not relevant to what I replied to, you shouldn't be saying "off base completely" to me at this point. :)
 

Sammy*

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Poochie_D said:
J-Bo hasnt lived up to anything yet. Offensively hes produced nothing and defensively hes been average at best. Id rather take the risk of " a guy with no NHL experience"
:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Yeah, he hasnt lived up to anything. Only been a regular in the World Cup for the deepest Defense corp in the world.
I could be wrong, but I also think he was named best d-man at the Worlds a couple of years back.
Too funny. The fanboys out there who always love the prospects over guys who have actually proven something at a very high level.
 

easton122

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JBO's hype after the 02 draft has just grown bigger and bigger until now when it's just ridiculous. So many people are going to be so disappointed when this kid doesn't turn into Scott Niedermayer. As of right now Paul Martin has shown more promise than JBO in the NHL. I mean JBO playing in the AHL should've let him dominate this year. Just look at how Spezza and Pitkanen reacted after playing in the NHL. Spezza dominated and Pitkanen became a much better defensemen because he improved physically and defensively. JBO in the AHL is the same as JBO in the NHL. He is just there. He makes a few solid defensive plays but nothing over the top. He skates like the wind yet never uses it to his advantage. He doesn't do anything offensively besides skate the puck up and dump it in. Having 0 points in 25 games or so in the AHL playoffs just shows how great JBO will become. You guys have a great 3rd-4th defensemen on your hands here. He should be able to become a solid defensive defensemen who can chip in 35-40 points. I don't care how young JBO is he hasn't even shown a glimpse of being anything more than a decent top 4 defensemen.
 

Sammy*

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easton122 said:
. I don't care how young JBO is he hasn't even shown a glimpse of being anything more than a decent top 4 defensemen.
I take it you never saw the World Cup or the the World Hockey Championships?
And the Paul Martin comment is tooooo funny. Not only is Martin 2 1/2 years older, there isnt a GM in hockey who would take him over JBO.
 

Lauser3*

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Sammy said:
:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Yeah, he hasnt lived up to anything. Only been a regular in the World Cup for the deepest Defense corp in the world.
I could be wrong, but I also think he was named best d-man at the Worlds a couple of years back.
Too funny. The fanboys out there who always love the prospects over guys who have actually proven something at a very high level.

He's been a regular? Let's not forget he was named to the team after injuries to guys ahead of him...he wasn't a lock. Otherwise, why wouldn't he get picked automatically the 2nd (or was it 3rd) time around?

Furthermore, his lack of physical play isn't anything new...it's been an issue with him even before he was drafted and has continued to be 3 years of pro later. He still hasn't changed that part of his game and likely never will...as he stands now (6-4 and 218), he's the biggest p---y on the Panthers. No question.

Furthermore, the 20 points for Jaystine that Vlady pointed out for the last NHL season was more like 12, since he had about 8 secondary assists in the mix, which you actually don't have to do much to get aside from touching the puck. Much like the +/- rating where you only have to be on the ice for the most part. Of those 12 points, only 2 were goals. Unacceptable, considering it was his 2nd season in the NHL. Lyle Odelein, Pavel Trnka, Andreas Lilja, and Mathieu (f---ing) Biron scored more goals than him (along with Van Ryn). Again...unacceptable.

He was expected to be our #1 defenseman after Ozolinsh was traded, was given #1 ice time, but did not produce. His 2nd season with the team, he was outshined by Mike Van Ryn, who was brought in to support, not take the reigns and lead.

In San Antonio, he was expected to lead the team since he was one of the guys with the most NHL experience on it, but again failed. Fans there were extremely disappointed with his performance and noted his lack of effort. His supporters claim that the reason Jaystine has underperformed (played mediocre really) is because of the supporting cast around him. Well, in Florida, he had Jokinen and Luongo (who was nominated for the Vezina)...Van Ryn (a rookie at the time since he wasn't a full time NHLer until coming to Florida) still found a way to produce with the cast he had around. Jaystine had the 2nd most ice time by the end of that season but was outshined. Just like he was outshined by Joel Kwiatkowski in San Antonio.

He then goes to a very good team/organization in Chicago (Atlanta) and does well at the start but then goes 25 straight games without a single point. One of the highest drafted players on the entire team mind you as well as one of the ones with the most NHL experience. 25 straight...not even a secondary assist. BOTH Chicago goaltenders had points in that time, pro rookie Braydon Coburn had points in that time, and even Chicago's enforcer (Brennan) had points during that time. What does that tell you? Inconsistency.

Oh, "but he plays solid defensively?" Great, but he was a 1st round pick which means points are also expected of him...especially since he was a highly touted OFFENSIVE defenseman. You want to call him a two way defenseman instead of an offensive one? Go ahead, but that still implies OFFENSE.

Oh, "but he was on Team Canada and blah blah blah?" Yeah, but so were Rob Niedermayer and Kelly Buchberger at one point...does that make them elite players in the NHL as well? Please...mind you, I'd still take those guys on the Panthers, but they aren't exactly the cream of the crop. And neither is Bouwmeester.

Oh, "but he's a great and fast skater?" What good is that if you don't use it to your advantage, much like his size? I mean, the Panthers needed a defenseman, not a figure skater.

Oh, "but he won a gold medal?" So? I rather have a Stanley Cup. BTW...he's also been outshined by a defenseman taken right after him (Pitkanen). Laters.
 
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