Jack Eichel

[Snuggs]

If I can keep Larkin/Seider I figure out the Eichel deal.

I don't get peoples problem with paying for him. No team will get him for free... but Eichel/Larkin/Seider is the best combo I can think of for a rebuild that's ( not probable, but possible ). I'm not saying a deal is likely but who's better than Eichel that we can actually go get? Draft/Trade/UFA? Idk?

An again, not likely but Werenski is a nice thought, Barkov should be the goal/prize with or without Eichel on the team. The home run is having a competitive enough team with cap space to sign both and put Red Wings over the top.

Eichel move, with keeping Larkin/Seider combined with Werenski signing and Barkov... Ok. Now you've got something rolling. Also very, very, VERY! unlikely but for now it's still possible and infront of the Red Wings.

Bottom line, I'd like Eichel but I'm not willing to do a ugly deal/over pay.

 

[Oddbob]

If I can keep Larkin/Seider I figure out the Eichel deal.

I don't get peoples problem with paying for him. No team will get him for free... but Eichel/Larkin/Seider is the best combo I can think of for a rebuild that's ( not probable, but possible ). I'm not saying a deal is likely but who's better than Eichel that we can actually go get? Draft/Trade/UFA? Idk?

An again, not likely but Werenski is a nice thought, Barkov should be the goal/prize with or without Eichel on the team. The home run is having a competitive enough team with cap space to sign both and put Red Wings over the top.

Eichel move, with keeping Larkin/Seider combined with Werenski signing and Barkov... Ok. Now you've got something rolling. Also very, very, VERY! unlikely but for now it's still possible and infront of the Red Wings.

Bottom line, I'd like Eichel but I'm not willing to do a ugly deal/over pay.

My issue is the injury situation and the opinion on him makes him seem less respected than other top players. Not sure if he is a good leader or not, and the risky injury situation makes me want to pass on getting him.

 

[Winger98]

My issue is the injury situation and the opinion on him makes him seem less respected than other top players. Not sure if he is a good leader or not, and the risky injury situation makes me want to pass on getting him.

To some degree I think you're as good a leader as the people around you. I mean, if the Wings never surrounded yzerman with any real talent what's he going to lead them to? He shows up every day, he plays his rear off, he plays on one leg through pain/injury...doesn't matter if you don't have a team around you. Apparently, Eichel has been playing through an assortment of injuries for awhile now. The guy is clearly making an effort at that point. Maybe to the point where it would be best if he just went on the IR instead.

I'm curious what Buffalo is thinking on the neck surgery. It sounds like Eichel wants something called a "cervical disk replacement," something that's been more common in Europe and has only recently been approved by the FDA for the States. If they agree that Eichel needs surgery, it seems the choices is between what Eichel wants and a fusion. Considering the track record for fusion surgeries aren't great, that careers seem to be impacted in a serious way, the back continues to degenerate, etc. ...roll the dice on the replacement. My only guess is that Buffalo leans towards surgery not being needed at all, but considering they apparently okayed him to play with a perpetually broken rib and some sort of abdominal injury that I still haven't seen a clarification on I'm not sure I'd be too gung ho for trusting Buffalo's medical staff.

 

[MBH]

Everyone wants to go home. Until they get a nice fat contract to play for a team with a chance to win.

 

[TCNorthstars]

If I can keep Larkin/Seider I figure out the Eichel deal.

I don't get peoples problem with paying for him. No team will get him for free... but Eichel/Larkin/Seider is the best combo I can think of for a rebuild that's ( not probable, but possible ). I'm not saying a deal is likely but who's better than Eichel that we can actually go get? Draft/Trade/UFA? Idk?

An again, not likely but Werenski is a nice thought, Barkov should be the goal/prize with or without Eichel on the team. The home run is having a competitive enough team with cap space to sign both and put Red Wings over the top.

Eichel move, with keeping Larkin/Seider combined with Werenski signing and Barkov... Ok. Now you've got something rolling. Also very, very, VERY! unlikely but for now it's still possible and infront of the Red Wings.

Bottom line, I'd like Eichel but I'm not willing to do a ugly deal/over pay.

I've got no problems giving up Larkin to get Eichel. Plus we need to make way for the new captain!

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

To some degree I think you're as good a leader as the people around you. I mean, if the Wings never surrounded yzerman with any real talent what's he going to lead them to? He shows up every day, he plays his rear off, he plays on one leg through pain/injury...doesn't matter if you don't have a team around you. Apparently, Eichel has been playing through an assortment of injuries for awhile now. The guy is clearly making an effort at that point. Maybe to the point where it would be best if he just went on the IR instead.

I'm curious what Buffalo is thinking on the neck surgery. It sounds like Eichel wants something called a "cervical disk replacement," something that's been more common in Europe and has only recently been approved by the FDA for the States. If they agree that Eichel needs surgery, it seems the choices is between what Eichel wants and a fusion. Considering the track record for fusion surgeries aren't great, that careers seem to be impacted in a serious way, the back continues to degenerate, etc. ...roll the dice on the replacement. My only guess is that Buffalo leans towards surgery not being needed at all, but considering they apparently okayed him to play with a perpetually broken rib and some sort of abdominal injury that I still haven't seen a clarification on I'm not sure I'd be too gung ho for trusting Buffalo's medical staff.

86% success rate within the first 6 months. 90% success rate within the first year.

The alternative of PT PT PT and more PT gets old to hear, and sometimes it never gets better despite the PT. (Speaking from personal experience.)

I can't speak for disc replacement surgery considering it's so new (In America, anyway) but when surgery is considered an option it's going to impact your mobility as a whole but it can become a requirement to maintain quality of life. You're talking about an injury that can cause weakness in limbs as well as radiating pains.

Degenerative disc problems are a real motherf***er.

 

[Winger98]

86% success rate within the first 6 months. 90% success rate within the first year.

The alternative of PT PT PT and more PT gets old to hear, and sometimes it never gets better despite the PT. (Speaking from personal experience.)

I can't speak for disc replacement surgery considering it's so new (In America, anyway) but when surgery is considered an option it's going to impact your mobility as a whole but it can become a requirement to maintain quality of life. You're talking about an injury that can cause weakness in limbs as well as radiating pains.

Degenerative disc problems are a real motherf***er.

Sorry, I know fusions are successful in the sense that we can lead our every day lives afterward, I meant that when we see NHLers get it we see them have similar issues again in a short time frame. we saw it with Zetterberg where by year three post-surgery he couldn't practice and had to gut out that last season. He was still productive, but he also clearly wasn't what he was.

I'm guessing Buffalo is pushing the physical therapy thing hard but if Eichel has been doing that and it's not helping, or at least not helping to a point where Eichel feels it's worth it... I don't know but if surgery is the last recourse we have fusions which we know isn't going to be a long term "fix" for Eichel as a hockey player or this other thing that a couple of MMA guys have had. I doubt either surgical option is great, but if they think Eichel will be more "eichel like" and for a long time with the disk replacement...May as well go for it. You're not getting prime eichel either way.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Sorry, I know fusions are successful in the sense that we can lead our every day lives afterward, I meant that when we see NHLers get it we see them have similar issues again in a short time frame. we saw it with Zetterberg where by year three post-surgery he couldn't practice and had to gut out that last season. He was still productive, but he also clearly wasn't what he was.

I'm guessing Buffalo is pushing the physical therapy thing hard but if Eichel has been doing that and it's not helping, or at least not helping to a point where Eichel feels it's worth it... I don't know but if surgery is the last recourse we have fusions which we know isn't going to be a long term "fix" for Eichel as a hockey player or this other thing that a couple of MMA guys have had. I doubt either surgical option is great, but if they think Eichel will be more "eichel like" and for a long time with the disk replacement...May as well go for it. You're not getting prime eichel either way.

Fusions tend to have less impact on your day to day life in lumbar spine fusions, from what I was told by my doctor. (They discussed an L4, L5 fusion) since those vertebrae flex less than others. The higher on your back or in your neck they are, the more difficult it is and the more maintenance will be required since those areas flex more. But yeah, to your point, Eichel's trade value is about to dip pretty low.

 

[Oddbob]

86% success rate within the first 6 months. 90% success rate within the first year.

The alternative of PT PT PT and more PT gets old to hear, and sometimes it never gets better despite the PT. (Speaking from personal experience.)

I can't speak for disc replacement surgery considering it's so new (In America, anyway) but when surgery is considered an option it's going to impact your mobility as a whole but it can become a requirement to maintain quality of life. You're talking about an injury that can cause weakness in limbs as well as radiating pains.

Degenerative disc problems are a real motherf***er.

No one is denying that this thing is terrible, but from Buffalo's perspective they are paying him 10+ mil a year, and the surgery is considered risky. Both the team and Eichel's personal doctor second opinions have said non-surgical route is the way to go, so I don't blame the team with the risks involved.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

If we win the 1st or 2nd would you trade Raymond and our two first rounders this year for him? I imagine we’d be outbid but that’s the highest I’d go. As others said, trading Larkin plus futures kind of defeats the purpose timing wise

 

[WF19]

If we win the 1st or 2nd would you trade Raymond and our two first rounders this year for him? I imagine we’d be outbid but that’s the highest I’d go. As others said, trading Larkin plus futures kind of defeats the purpose timing wise

I would do 2 firsts and anything aside from Raymond and Seider.

 

[SirloinUB]

Interestingly, the sabres beat writer went through some possibilities and from the wings suggested “Raymond or Zadina and a collection of picks and prospects.” He also noted that while seider is our top prospect forwards would be more appealing to Buffalo.

I’m not sure what an appropriate “collection”
would be?


If that’s the case I’d do Zadina + 7th + any prospect not named Raymond (or obviously Seider). I’d even add one of our extra 2nd rounders this year.

To be fair, some of the other offers more impact now and ours is more future heavy but considering the dead money they have with Okposo and skinner that might make more sense for them than a deal centered around Matt tkachuk or kuznetsov (just some other examples from the article).


I’d be pretty comfortable with Zadina + 7th + Veleno/Berggren + 47th. I’d even turn that slash between Veleno & Berggren into a +.


Bertuzzi - Eichel - Vrana
Fabbri - Larkin - Raymond

would be a legit top 6.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Interestingly, the sabres beat writer went through some possibilities and from the wings suggested “Raymond or Zadina and a collection of picks and prospects.” He also noted that while seider is our top prospect forwards would be more appealing to Buffalo.

I’m not sure what an appropriate “collection”
would be?


If that’s the case I’d do Zadina + 7th + any prospect not named Raymond (or obviously Seider). I’d even add one of our extra 2nd rounders this year.

To be fair, some of the other offers more impact now and ours is more future heavy but considering the dead money they have with Okposo and skinner that might make more sense for them than a deal centered around Matt tkachuk or kuznetsov (just some other examples from the article).


I’d be pretty comfortable with Zadina + 7th + Veleno/Berggren + 47th. I’d even turn that slash between Veleno & Berggren into a +.


Bertuzzi - Eichel - Vrana
Fabbri - Larkin - Raymond

would be a legit top 6.

Dude Raymond isn't going to be on the Wings next year. I also hate the idea of having 2 guys that have had back/neck surgery in our top 6 forwards and on the top line.

 

[SirloinUB]

Dude Raymond isn't going to be on the Wings next year. I also hate the idea of having 2 guys that have had back/neck surgery in our top 6 forwards and on the top line.

Dude, I was looking at it from a long term perspective.

Sign a guy like Ryan for a year if you just want to bridge a year. Or get a guy like Hoffman/Tatar on a 2 or 3 year contract to hold down the spot until Raymond is ready and then use them as depth after Raymond is ready.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Dude, I was looking at it from a long term perspective.

Sign a guy like Ryan for a year if you just want to bridge a year. Or get a guy like Hoffman/Tatar on a 2 or 3 year contract to hold down the spot until Raymond is ready and then use them as depth after Raymond is ready.

Fair enough. I'm skeptical about Eichel right now, though. He's obviously a top 10 center in the league (when healthy) but I have sincere doubts he will be back to his 40 goal, 95 point pace of 2 seasons ago after his injury. Spinal injuries aren't the kind of injuries you ever fully recover from. The surgeries and the PT is mostly to prevent them from getting worse.

I don't think we'll be the guys to take the gamble on him.

Maybe Calgary, because they need to move on from Monahan but Eichel doesn't seem like a Sutter style of player.
Maybe Nashville because they've never had a marquee, elite forward in their prime. (Old Kariya and old Forsberg don't count)
Maybe Boston because they are aging up the middle with Krejci and Bergeron in their mid to late 30s without much help on the way.
Maybe Minnesota because they have the prospect pool to pull a big trade from it without missing a beat.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Dude Raymond isn't going to be on the Wings next year. I also hate the idea of having 2 guys that have had back/neck surgery in our top 6 forwards and on the top line.

As much as I love Bert & knowing what a special type of player he is, unique combo of blah, blah, blah, use that to our bargaining power advantage.

(do a mutually agreed upon by all 3 parties Sign & trade). That's 1 less back injury risk that could go wrong long term, while inflating the price paid a bit with term

Bert + '21 1st + '21 1st (Wsh). If bidding war ensues, add Ras/Tuomisto, or maybe upgrade either to Berggren if SY is 110% sold on Eichel & he's green lit medically.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

As much as I love Bert & knowing what a special type of player he is, unique combo of blah, blah, blah.

(do a mutually agreed upon by all 3 parties Sign & trade). That's 1 less back injury risk that could go wrong long term, while inflating the price paid a bit with term

Bert + '21 1st + '21 1st (Wsh). If bidding war ensues, add Ras/Tuomisto, or maybe upgrade either to Berggren if SY is 110% sold on Eichel & he's green lit medically.

I think even that is overpay for Eichel. I think after he's traded we're all going to look back and say, "That's IT?!" similar to the Joe Thornton trade. Disgruntled star with a possible career threatening/limiting injury wanting out.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I think even that is overpay for Eichel. I think after he's traded we're all going to look back and say, "That's IT?!" similar to the Joe Thornton trade. Disgruntled star with a possible career threatening/limiting injury wanting out.

You're probably right 60/40? As the thread & similar discussion of acquiring Eichel migrates, I've found myself adding to my original offer. I hereby retract Berggren & Ras. Tuomisto is the "sweetener". With 3+ injuries & hefty cap hit + only 1yr left before his NTC kicks in BUF is on the clock. Right now they're claiming "there's no internal issue /Eich, contrary to his statements". So they're in denial (not likely), or just wanna save face & change the public perception of it. Also, GM's aren't that dumb, they know smoke/fire.

@OgeeOgelthorpe how would you adjust my last offer (if it included Bert + (2) '21 1sts?)

 

[HisNoodliness]

Interestingly, the sabres beat writer went through some possibilities and from the wings suggested “Raymond or Zadina and a collection of picks and prospects.” He also noted that while seider is our top prospect forwards would be more appealing to Buffalo.

I’m not sure what an appropriate “collection”
would be?


If that’s the case I’d do Zadina + 7th + any prospect not named Raymond (or obviously Seider). I’d even add one of our extra 2nd rounders this year.

To be fair, some of the other offers more impact now and ours is more future heavy but considering the dead money they have with Okposo and skinner that might make more sense for them than a deal centered around Matt tkachuk or kuznetsov (just some other examples from the article).


I’d be pretty comfortable with Zadina + 7th + Veleno/Berggren + 47th. I’d even turn that slash between Veleno & Berggren into a +.


Bertuzzi - Eichel - Vrana
Fabbri - Larkin - Raymond

would be a legit top 6.

Yeah a deal centered around 7th OA + Zadina I can do. I don't know if I like moving Berggren and Veleno too though, would rather trade Fabbri or something instead of one of them just so that our forward prospect pipeline isn't totally decimated. I don't know how the actual price shakes out but that deal is about an the limit of what I'd do.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

You're probably right 60/40? As the thread & similar discussion of acquiring Eichel migrates, I've found myself adding to my original offer. I hereby retract Berggren & Ras. Tuomisto is the "sweetener". With 3+ injuries & hefty cap hit + only 1yr left before his NTC kicks in BUF is on the clock. Right now they're claiming "there's no internal issue /Eich, contrary to his statements". So they're in denial (not likely), or just wanna save face & change the public perception of it. Also, GM's aren't that dumb, they know smoke/fire.

@OgeeOgelthorpe how would you adjust my last offer (if it included Bert + (2) '21 1sts?)

It's import to consider that there's more miserable players in Buffalo than Eichel.

Sabres' Sam Reinhart: 'No one wants to go through a rebuild' | wgrz.com (From 2021)

Ristolainen has had talks about moving on from Sabres: report (from 2019)

Buffalo Sabres defenceman Rasmus Ristolainen 'fine' with trade away from team - TSN.ca (from 2021)

So Eichel, Ristolainen and Reinhart all want out of Buffalo. I doubt we could get all 3 in a trade but 2 of them for sure.

Eichel + Reinhart or Ristolainen + Okposo's corpse for Rasmussen + B level prospect (Tuomisto/Wallinder) + Bertuzzi + WSH 1st in 2021 + a 2nd or 3rd

or...

Eichel + Reinhart or Ristolainen + Okposo's corpse for DET 1st in 2021 + Bertuzzi + a 2nd in 2021

We'll also have a boatload of cap space for 3 or 4 more years that we could eat a salary like Okposo in return which is Buffalo adding negative value to the deal. Eichel, Okposo and Reinhart/Ristolainen = $21.2 million to Detroit. Buffalo only gets about $5 million in return from Bertuzzi and Rasmussen.

So Buffalo goes from being a team at the cap ceiling this season to one at the floor next year. It also puts them in the Shane Wright sweepstakes (Not that they weren't anyway), and we know that they're a team that isn't above a total tank job. They may even look at that as their next bet at a true rebuild. (But probably not because Buffalo is gonna Buffalo.)

Detroit gets a real number one center and a legit top 6 scoring RW or a legit 2nd pair offensive defenseman at a discount for eating 2 more seasons of Okposo's garbage cap hit. We have a top 6 that may even carry us to a playoff berth.

Zadina - Eichel - Reinhart
Vrana - Larkin - Fabbri

Or...

Vrana - Eichel - Zadina
Fabbri - Larkin - Berggren (if he's ready)

XXX - Seider
XXX - Ristolainen
XXX - Hronek

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

It's import to consider that there's more miserable players in Buffalo than Eichel.

Sabres' Sam Reinhart: 'No one wants to go through a rebuild' | wgrz.com (From 2021)

Ristolainen has had talks about moving on from Sabres: report (from 2019)

Buffalo Sabres defenceman Rasmus Ristolainen 'fine' with trade away from team - TSN.ca (from 2021)

So Eichel, Ristolainen and Reinhart all want out of Buffalo. I doubt we could get all 3 in a trade but 2 of them for sure.

Eichel + Reinhart or Ristolainen + Okposo's corpse for Rasmussen + B level prospect (Tuomisto/Wallinder) + Bertuzzi + WSH 1st in 2021 + a 2nd or 3rd

or...

Eichel + Reinhart or Ristolainen + Okposo's corpse for DET 1st in 2021 + Bertuzzi + a 2nd in 2021

We'll also have a boatload of cap space for 3 or 4 more years that we could eat a salary like Okposo in return which is Buffalo adding negative value to the deal. Eichel, Okposo and Reinhart/Ristolainen = $21.2 million to Detroit. Buffalo only gets about $5 million in return from Bertuzzi and Rasmussen.

So Buffalo goes from being a team at the cap ceiling this season to one at the floor next year. It also puts them in the Shane Wright sweepstakes (Not that they weren't anyway), and we know that they're a team that isn't above a total tank job. They may even look at that as their next bet at a true rebuild. (But probably not because Buffalo is gonna Buffalo.)

Detroit gets a real number one center and a legit top 6 scoring RW or a legit 2nd pair offensive defenseman at a discount for eating 2 more seasons of Okposo's garbage cap hit. We have a top 6 that may even carry us to a playoff berth.

Zadina - Eichel - Reinhart
Vrana - Larkin - Fabbri

Or...

Vrana - Eichel - Zadina
Fabbri - Larkin - Berggren (if he's ready)

XXX - Seider
XXX - Ristolainen
XXX - Hronek

Yep, "the smoke/fire" covers all those players.

$12m/2yrs dead cap for Okposo will deflate the value somewhat, but not so much that BUF sells that "low" on both Eich & Reinhart.

However, presuming they did...

I like the 1st trade which we keep our own '21 1st. Bert is the casualty +Ras & Tuomisto. I'd prefer Reinhart over Risto (RD surplus) who can't/doesn't defend well.

Vrana-Eichel-Zadina (don't think Z is ready for 1st line duty yet)
Fabbri-Larkin-Reinhart
Berggren-Veleno-Erne/Raymond (when he's ready)
Smith-LGD-Pearson?

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I wouldn't trade anything for Eichel, that contract is way too huge and that injury is way too risky. Even if healthy, 10m for a guy with his career statline is a bad contract. In the current cap environment no one not named McDavid should be getting that kind of contract.

Even if Buffalo eats 3m you could end up with a contract that makes Nielsen's look like a steal. Now you are stuck with a 7-10m albatross OR a guy on LTIR, and you lose a good prospect and picks on top of it. You have maybe a 10% chance of Eichel coming back healthy and in top shape and making that contract look good.

No thanks. I'd rather throw 6m at RNH and 7m at Hamilton. Let the Rangers keep making the dumb moves.

 

[SirloinUB]

Yeah a deal centered around 7th OA + Zadina I can do. I don't know if I like moving Berggren and Veleno too though, would rather trade Fabbri or something instead of one of them just so that our forward prospect pipeline isn't totally decimated. I don't know how the actual price shakes out but that deal is about an the limit of what I'd do.

I get where you are coming from and mostly agree but at the end of the day I wouldn’t fret any of these other prospects when trading for a guy of the eichels caliber. A couple points:

1) we are getting a top 10 Center back so I’m less worried about total value going the other way.

2) with Eichel/Larkin/Ras down the middle I don’t see as much need for Veleno.

3) similar on wing, with Vrana, Raymond, Bert and to a lesser extent Fabbri I don’t see much need for Berggren.

4) we still have some other intriguing prospects like Mastrosimone, Bradley, soderblom, etc. No sure bets but some pieces in the pipeline.

5) we still have a late 1st, two seconds, a bunch of late picks and all future picks.

at the end of the day, we’d have an excellent young core, and lots of future pieces to work with so if takes Berggren, Veleno and even one more pick, I do that all day long.

Some people have brought up Eichel’s injuries which is a fair concern but all trades are pending a physical so assuming our doctors will sign off on Eichel, I jump at this.

 

[SirloinUB]

I wouldn't trade anything for Eichel, that contract is way too huge and that injury is way too risky. Even if healthy, 10m for a guy with his career statline is a bad contract. In the current cap environment no one not named McDavid should be getting that kind of contract.

Even if Buffalo eats 3m you could end up with a contract that makes Nielsen's look like a steal. Now you are stuck with a 7-10m albatross OR a guy on LTIR, and you lose a good prospect and picks on top of it. You have maybe a 10% chance of Eichel coming back healthy and in top shape and making that contract look good.

No thanks. I'd rather throw 6m at RNH and 7m at Hamilton. Let the Rangers keep making the dumb moves.

Lol at comparing the contracts of Eichel and Nielsen.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Some people have brought up Eichel’s injuries which is a fair concern but all trades are pending a physical so assuming our doctors will sign off on Eichel, I jump at this.

Uwe Krupp passed a physical to sign with the Wings. Just saying. Edit: lol his injury was also a herniated disc. Womp womp.

edit: Standard physicals are also really bad at detecting possible degenerative nerve changes due to cervical spine damage and possible stenosis that can easily result from spinal damage. I've spent a decade working in acute\subacute rehab and I've seen at least several dozen patients with paresis in one (and sometimes) multiple limbs that came on gradually and was missed by multiple doctors and neurologists, following seemingly benign injuries to the neck\back.

Like I said, I wouldn't touch this with a 10 (million dollar) foot pole. There is a metric shit-ton of risk here. There is a lot more extant evidence for athletes having to retire or playing at a reduced level following this type of injury than there is for athletes returning at a high level.