Player Discussion Jack Eichel Part 1

[tsujimoto74]

I'm not good with stats. Can anyone explain what these numbers mean.

I'm not sure what ShotContr60 is, but the rest is pretty straight-forward:
Shots assisted on per 60 mins played
Shots taken per 60 mins played
Offensive zone entries w/ puck control per 60 minutes played
Percentage of offensive entries w/ possession
Defensive zone exits w/ puck control per 60 mins played
% of defensive exits w/ possession

So basically: Jack generates shots and shooting opportunities for his teammates at an elite level. He is one of the very best players in the league at moving the puck out of the D-zone and into the O-zone while maintaining possession. The latter correlates with the creation of scoring chances, so it kind of goes hand in hand with his raw offensive stats and the shot numbers in the chart.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm not sure what ShotContr60 is, but the rest is pretty straight-forward:
Shots assisted on per 60 mins played
Shots taken per 60 mins played
Offensive zone entries w/ puck control per 60 minutes played
Percentage of offensive entries w/ possession
Defensive zone exits w/ puck control per 60 mins played
% of defensive exits w/ possession

So basically: Jack generates shots and shooting opportunities for his teammates at an elite level. He is one of the very best players in the league at moving the puck out of the D-zone and into the O-zone while maintaining possession. The latter correlates with the creation of scoring chances, so it kind of goes hand in hand with his raw offensive stats and the shot numbers in the chart.

Shot Contribution is just Shots + Shot Assists

 

[Ace]

I'm not good with stats. Can anyone explain what these numbers mean.

It means if he hadn’t played with Girgensons and Pominville he’d be on the cover of NHL 19.

And also if you play fantasy hockey get on him early before they figure it out.

 

[sabrebuild]

It means Tim Murray had established a reputation of selling young roster players, prospects and picks... for older and more established quick fixes. And there's no reason to believe after these last few years of ROR, Kane, Bogo and Lehner not working out, that he wouldn't have done the same thing again.

Give Murray some credit for making some solid picks outside of Nylander... but by leaving that group more or less alone this offseason and last, and continuing to add to it, Botts has already shown a bit more tact and patience than Murray. And I think that facilitating a better farm team will pay dividends.


The difference is Compher was a throw-in on the ROR deal... obviously Zads, Grigorenko (at the time) and the 1st were the haul there. Pu was the centerpiece for Skinner. That's a huge swing in terms of value.

I agree that Murray traded bigger pieces more often, but the discussion is about did he empty the cupboards as has been cried about.

And even if we assume he would have made moves last year, that means there were still good pieces to trade. So you agree he didn’t empty the cupboard.

I still have a hard time crediting Botts for tanking, as patience. Getting Dahlin will give him a pass from a lot of people for last year. But if the lottery plays out and instead getting lucky, we got Brady Tkachuk, as much as I think he will be good, that is a horrible waste of prime Eichel, Risto, O’Reilly, etc. without a lot to show for it.

So I think my original premise holds up. The cupboards went from exceptional to well above average because of graduations and some busts. The traded young talent loss was minimal. At this point Zadorov is the only young player traded who could really help this team, tho Compher and armia would be okay bottom 6.

Having time to reflect, the pieces traded have never been the problem. The return of Kane and Bogo was the issue. Both for the game and injuries they brought and for the big move element of expectations.

 

[Dreakon13]

I agree that Murray traded bigger pieces more often, but the discussion is about did he empty the cupboards as has been cried about.

And even if we assume he would have made moves last year, that means there were still good pieces to trade. So you agree he didn’t empty the cupboard.

I still have a hard time crediting Botts for tanking, as patience. Getting Dahlin will give him a pass from a lot of people for last year. But if the lottery plays out and instead getting lucky, we got Brady Tkachuk, as much as I think he will be good, that is a horrible waste of prime Eichel, Risto, O’Reilly, etc. without a lot to show for it.

So I think my original premise holds up. The cupboards went from exceptional to well above average because of graduations and some busts. The traded young talent loss was minimal. At this point Zadorov is the only young player traded who could really help this team, tho Compher and armia would be okay bottom 6.

Having time to reflect, the pieces traded have never been the problem. The return of Kane and Bogo was the issue. Both for the game and injuries they brought and for the big move element of expectations.

I don't mean "tanking" when I say "patience". Dahlin is a huge get for this team, Botts lucked into that for sure... but Rochester is looking like a solid team this year, without Dahlin or Mittelstadt... and with more organizational depth than usual. That's both due to Murray's drafting and Botts trades/signings/drafting. And not trading every promising young player away.

I think our pipeline has sucked for a long time. Barely enough depth to keep Rochester going, no less the Sabres. Maybe we weren't the bottom of any prospect pool lists because every year we seemed to have one or two big names either jumping into the NHL or entering the organization in general... but it never went more than 2, 3, 4 players deep before we'd start dipping into the guys who barely belong in the AHL. It feels different this year.

Maybe it's not fair to give Botts too much credit for simply keeping and using the players already in the system, and adding pieces to it... but going a few years as we did getting rid of so many young roster players, prospects and picks for the quick fixes... I'm excited to see how this plays out.

 

[sabrebuild]

I don't mean "tanking" when I say "patience". Dahlin is a huge get for this team, Botts lucked into that for sure... but Rochester is looking like a solid team this year, without Dahlin or Mittelstadt... and with more organizational depth than usual. That's both due to Murray's drafting and Botts trades/signings/drafting. And not trading every promising young player away.

I think our pipeline has sucked for a long time. Barely enough depth to keep Rochester going, no less the Sabres. Maybe we weren't the bottom of any prospect pool lists because every year we seemed to have one or two good players graduating... but it never went more than 2, 3, 4 players deep before we'd start dipping into the guys who barely belong in the AHL. It feels different this year.

First paragraph, I agree, guys he drafted are going to lead that team. The pipeline not being ready the last couple years are much more on Darcy than Murray. The guys you and I are both missing that needed to step up are Baptiste, Bailey for Darcy and Fasching and Carrier for Murray. Carrier worked out, but got lost in the expansion draft. Still waiting on the other two.

The Nylander pick is really the only year under Murray I can think of him whiffing on a first round pick, but he seemingly hit on Guhle and Borgen. Every draft under Murray had at least 1 nhl level player or better.

In an alternate history, what if Ennis, O’Reilly and Kane play full seasons in 15-16. Especially Ennis not getting his brain scrambled. O’Reilly puts up 60 in 71 games. Add 11 games and 6 points. Ennis looks great over the summer at wc, and seemed set for a top 6 wing spot. Even in a shortened injury season Ennis was on pace for 40 points. Full minutes on O’Reilly wing while healthy could very well have been a career year in the high 50s.

Does that team flirt with playoffs or at least bubble late onto the year?

Was this whole elc window wasted by Ennis getting concussed and Bogosian being a complete waste of time? Was it over two weeks into the season?

This rebuild has been unbelievably frustrating. Stupid things have been occasionally mixed in with smart ideas, that screwup seasons for no reason. For the whole Pegula era. And yet the luck of winning the draft, makes this team feel again, as superbly positioned to build a great team as they were at the 2015 draft.

 

[pigpen65]

It took a big jump with the 2013 draft.

2013 was a great draft but they were up towards the top of the league before 2013 too. Regardless, it went down after Murray, not up.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Won't be long now!

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Sabres' Eichel ready to help turn this franchise around

Buffalo, NY (WGR 550) - Jack Eichel is back in town and was skating with three of his teammates on Wednesday at HarborCenter.

The Sabres have nine new players coming in this season and 10 have left. That means there’s a big change in the locker-room and I could just tell by talking to Eichel that he’s excited for this season, “It’s good to be back here, I’m pretty excited to be playing again, so it’s been a long summer, a lot to think about and I’m just excited for another season.”

 

[WeDislikeEich]

I am struck by how much it sounds like Jack Eichel has matured (ans not just in this interview alone).

Also, he did not sound at all broken up over the moves made this summer, including the ROR trade.

Just the opposite - he seems to be somewhat energized by the moves, IMO. And says that these changes needed to happen.

 

[Tatanka]

I am struck by how much it sounds like Jack Eichel has matured (ans not just in this interview alone).

Also, he did not sound at all broken up over the moves made this summer, including the ROR trade.

Just the opposite - he seems to be somewhat energized by the moves, IMO. And says that these changes needed to happen.

I read his comments to mean the changes were not unexpected in light of the team results. I did not get the impression he was endorsing them or condemning them.

 

[CrazyPsycho]

Sabres' Eichel focuses on keeping fiery emotions in check

Love this

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Sabres' Eichel focuses on keeping fiery emotions in check

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — Breaking sticks, icy stares and one-word answers made out of frustration have done nothing to transform the Sabres into contenders during center Jack Eichel’s three seasons in Buffalo.

Perhaps, Eichel has begun to realize he can’t lead by emotion alone.

“I think that’s important, obviously, not reacting, body language, staying upbeat. I think that’s part of it,” Eichel told The Associated Press after joining numerous teammates for an informal session at the team’s practice facility Thursday.

 

[GellMann]

Sabres' Eichel focuses on keeping fiery emotions in check

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — Breaking sticks, icy stares and one-word answers made out of frustration have done nothing to transform the Sabres into contenders during center Jack Eichel’s three seasons in Buffalo.

Perhaps, Eichel has begun to realize he can’t lead by emotion alone.

“I think that’s important, obviously, not reacting, body language, staying upbeat. I think that’s part of it,” Eichel told The Associated Press after joining numerous teammates for an informal session at the team’s practice facility Thursday.

I've always been confused by this perception. If you pick any player on a consistently bad team, one that gets interviewed a lot, and watched them closely, you get the exact same stuff as Eichel has shown. McDavid has broken sticks and had pissed off interviews plenty of time, but he's a calm, cool leader.

But when Jack does it everyone assumes he's storming into Terry's office telling him to fire coaches, spitting in the faces of reporters, ignoring all his teammates who he thinks suck.

The general perception of Jack around the league/among fans here and what Jack actually is, relative to any other hockey player and person, are starkly different things.

 

[Duddy]

He can talk all he wants, time for him to step up to the price tag and carry this team

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

He can talk all he wants, time for him to step up to the price tag and carry this team

He hasnt had the chance to earn his price tag. He scored 121 points in 128 games these past two seasons with virtually no help. He had the worst scoring blue line in the league with only one dmen capable of scoring more then 30 points in a season. He had a total of 4 legit top 6 forwards to play with over these past two years and two have been dealt. Luckily others have come.

I just think its unfair to criticize jack and his contract when it literally just kicked in this summer. Is a ~75-80 point center with a lacking two way game and poor face off skills worth 10 mil a year? He shouldnt be but in todays league, yes he is.

What I want to see from JE9 is him take that next step from star center to superstar center. I want him to go from Getzlaf to Modano. Develop his two way game further, seize the captaincy and go from a near ppg center to a 90-100 point scoring title contender. While he may not finish top 5 in scoring this year or even next, but once Casey has developed fully along with Dahlin, Thompson, and Sam that is when he will be at 90 points in the middle of March.

 

[gallagt01]

I just think its unfair to criticize jack and his contract when it literally just kicked in this summer. Is a ~75-80 point center with a lacking two way game and poor face off skills worth 10 mil a year? He shouldnt be but in todays league, yes he is.

What 75- to 80-point one-dimensional centers who suck at faceoffs are making $10 million?

I love Jack. But that's not reality. He's got one of the more ridiculous contracts in the league when you consider what he's done to date.

Luckily, the Sabres paid heavily to retain the player they think Eichel will become, not for the player they've gotten. Hopefully it works out. I think it will.

 

[Aladyyn]

He can talk all he wants, time for him to step up to the price tag and carry this team

Meh. Not holding Eichel's contract against him. Botterill gave him the money, it's not Eichel's responsibility to make his GM look good.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

What 75- to 80-point one-dimensional centers who suck at faceoffs are making $10 million?

I love Jack. But that's not reality. He's got one of the more ridiculous contracts in the league when you consider what he's done to date.

Luckily, the Sabres paid heavily to retain the player they think Eichel will become, not for the player they've gotten. Hopefully it works out. I think it will.

Right now? Very few players have a 8 digit aav. But that is all changing over the next few summers.

Here are some players who have recently or eventually will sign contracts that pay 10+ mil aav...

McDavid
Eichel
Doughty
Tavares
Price
Kane
Toews
Kopitar

That list will be joined by Matthews and Laine for 19-20. Erik Karlsson will get 11-12 mil easy for 7 years sometime over the next year. And as mega prospects like Dahlin and Jack Hughes come off their elcs if they are as good as advertised then they too will make 10 mil+.

Jack gets paid a lot theres no question. But any GM would make that contract offer. The Boston angle was always very real. If paying an extra mil or so to ensure he stays in Buffalo a perennial loser for his entire prime instead of hometown Boston a recent cup winner then so be it. Some times you need to pay premiums. Just be thankful we arent Ottawa with Karlsson. Like Jack or not hes the most skilled Sabre since LaFontaine. And has the chance to break Bert's records.

High former draft picks who are ppg or near it are going to all get 9-10 mil from now on. Leon D got 8.5 and he clearly benefits from #97 but he still got the superstar money.

Jack finally has a true sniper on his team now and more then one dmen capable of making plays with the puck and logging big minutes. Jack actually now has multiple forwards to play with who have speed to burn and the talent to convert his chances.

Eichel always striked me as a guy who would put up 30-60-90 and not with a near equal amount of goals and assists. Not to say that Jack wont have a couple 40 goal seasons over the years but to me I think hes a playmaker first and foremost who can score goals on his own and will also frustrate us some times on why he doesnt have more goals.

But its Eichels Elite vision that has me most excited. How many times has Eichel pulled off some dazzling move in tight out the corners to a wide open teammate for a sure fire goal only to have him be forced to pass to a Bogosian or some other inferior player who blows a glorious high chance scoring opportunity. Now with literally 4 20+ goal vet wingers in our top 6 he is going to have a hell of a season. I think he will have more then one or two 3+ assist night.

Jack is paid full retail value. Factor in the Boston factor and 10 mil is not a bad price at all and that's assuming he merely stays where he is, as a ~75-80 point star C. If he takes that step from ppg star to 90+ point superstar then his aav will look like a bargain. And to be honest out of all the players with the 10+ aav I only trade eichel for #97 out of that list. If you are going to pay 10 mil+ to someone it should be someone in their early 20s entering their prime, not someone in their early 30s exiting their prime.

 

[Jim Bob]

I think the fact that jack has missed significant time the past two seasons can also skew things.

Jack can be classified as both a close to, but not quite, a PPG player over the past few seasons AND a guy that has never scored 30 goals or 70 points in an NHL season.

If you describe him as a 0.95 PPG player over the last two seasons, you are correct and $10M per isn't out of line.

If you describe him as a 25g & 60pt player over the last two seasons, you are also correct and $10M per is an overpayment based on what he has produced and is more about paying for the potential of what he might become.

It's the age old glass half full vs glass half empty kind of thing.

 

[darcyRegier]

I think we've seen flashes of it throughout the last 3 years...when Jack's playing at 110%, he's an absolute beast. His skating combined with his strength and puck-handling make him extremely difficult to defend, and when he's playing all-out it makes it pretty much impossible to contain him.

Unfortunately we don't see that version of Jack every night. I think the ankle injuries had a big impact on that. But I also think that Jack just kind of needed to mature and see where his game was at, and in my eyes he's grown up enough to realize that he needs to play hard every shift for this team to have any chance of playing in April.

I think we'll be seeing much more of that dominant Jack that is year. And I really hope we do because when he's on, he's the best player on the ice. And boy is it a treat to watch.

 

[Duddy]

Meh. Not holding Eichel's contract against him. Botterill gave him the money, it's not Eichel's responsibility to make his GM look good.

This was no shot at Jack, it's just that he needs to step up and be the player he thinks he can be.
That's what we suffered for, he has to deliver.

 

[haseoke39]

I think the fact that jack has missed significant time the past two seasons can also skew things.

Jack can be classified as both a close to, but not quite, a PPG player over the past few seasons AND a guy that has never scored 30 goals or 70 points in an NHL season.

If you describe him as a 0.95 PPG player over the last two seasons, you are correct and $10M per isn't out of line.

If you describe him as a 25g & 60pt player over the last two seasons, you are also correct and $10M per is an overpayment based on what he has produced and is more about paying for the potential of what he might become.

It's the age old glass half full vs glass half empty kind of thing.

$10M isn't the going rate for a 0.95 PPG player. Thirty-five guys in the NHL scored 0.95 PPG last year (filtering for 50 games or more). Take the ten guys closest to Jack in terms of PPG last year, and their average salary next year is $6.02M.

0.95 PPG and the Selke? Sure. 0.95 PPG and three cups? Okay. And even so, just because Chicago paid that to Kane and Toews doesn't mean they were smart to do it. They were paying for the legacy of three cups, not really future production, and you can argue whether that fan service was worth it based on the trajectory of that team now. Their championship squads were actually very, very well-balanced financially.

 

[Jim Bob]

$10M isn't the going rate for a 0.95 PPG player. Thirty-five guys in the NHL scored 0.95 PPG last year (filtering for 50 games or more). Take the ten guys closest to Jack in terms of PPG last year, and their average salary next year is $6.02M.

0.95 PPG and the Selke? Sure. 0.95 PPG and three cups? Okay. And even so, just because Chicago paid that to Kane and Toews doesn't mean they were smart to do it. They were paying for the legacy of three cups, not really future production, and you can argue whether that fan service was worth it based on the trajectory of that team now. Their championship squads were actually very, very well-balanced financially.

What is the average salary on a second contract for a player that had multiple 0.9 PPG seasons on their ELC for second contracts signed over the past 3 or 4 years?

This conversation morphs depending on the angle you take to view Eichel and what he has done so far.

For instance, Tarasenko had one season in the 0.9+ PPG range before he signed his second contract three years ago.

The same thing with Draisaitl and his second contract.

So, if you view the Eichel deal through that lens, you are more likely to understand it.

It's all about the lens you view it through.