Player Discussion Jack Eichel Part 2

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littletonhockeycoach

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This is round two of the Lidstrom discussion. For the beginning of his career, he got overshadowed by flash (Gonchar, Leetch, Niedermeyer, MacInnis, Coffey) and bang (Pronger, Blake, Jovanovski, Chelios) and Bourque. He didn't win his first Norris until his 10th season.

No flash, no smash. Just quietly effective and efficient play. There's not a single defenseman from his era that I'd take over Lidstrom.

Makar is explosive (Coffey), Heiskanen is fast (Niedermeyer), and Quinn is dynamic (Leetch). But it'll be Dahlin (Lidstrom) who will be the best.
Good post. Lidstrom was in a class of his own. So was Bourque. He could do it all. I'd have a hard time choosing between either.
 
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John Eichel da GOAT

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I wouldn't be too sure of that.
This is round two of the Lidstrom discussion. For the beginning of his career, he got overshadowed by flash (Gonchar, Leetch, Niedermeyer, MacInnis, Coffey) and bang (Pronger, Blake, Jovanovski, Chelios) and Bourque. He didn't win his first Norris until his 10th season.

No flash, no smash. Just quietly effective and efficient play. There's not a single defenseman from his era that I'd take over Lidstrom.

Makar is explosive (Coffey), Heiskanen is fast (Niedermeyer), and Quinn is dynamic (Leetch). But it'll be Dahlin (Lidstrom) who will be the best.
Do I expect/hope Dahlin to get there? 100%, but its not really an argument that he currently is in the tier below. Makar showed holy explosive offensive talent in his first season and Miro is the best all around defender weve seen this young since....who knows who.

And I agree Lidstrom is the best defenseman ever. I put him ahead of Orr which is an unpopular opinion.

But in terms of Dahlin, we all know the potential is there, but he needs the team around him to progress with him. Lidstrom still had the Yzerman/Fedorov to Zetts/Datsyuk. Greats in their own right. If Jack leaves, it could get ugly and boom all of a sudden Dahlin is 6 years in and still not where we expected him to be.
 

Der Jaeger

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Do I expect/hope Dahlin to get there? 100%, but its not really an argument that he currently is in the tier below. Makar showed holy explosive offensive talent in his first season and Miro is the best all around defender weve seen this young since....who knows who.

And I agree Lidstrom is the best defenseman ever. I put him ahead of Orr which is an unpopular opinion.

But in terms of Dahlin, we all know the potential is there, but he needs the team around him to progress with him. Lidstrom still had the Yzerman/Fedorov to Zetts/Datsyuk. Greats in their own right. If Jack leaves, it could get ugly and boom all of a sudden Dahlin is 6 years in and still not where we expected him to be.

you’re shifting the goalposts.

During Dahlin’s rookie season, as an 18 year old, he outscored Heiskanen. Quinn and Makar were still in college.

last season, Makar and Quinn outscored Dahlin. Makar was 21, Quinn was 20. Dahlin was 19. Colorado and Vancouver unleashed both of them, while Krueger focused Dahlin on learning to be complete.

Dahlin still outscored Heiskanen.
 
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Fezzy126

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Jack was on Spittin Chiclets, I thought it was a fantastic listen.

Went over his frustration with last year, offseason training, how he heard about the Hall signing, and his new puppy. His interview starts at the 42:47 mark of the podcast.
 
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John Eichel da GOAT

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you’re shifting the goalposts.

During Dahlin’s rookie season, as an 18 year old, he outscored Heiskanen. Quinn and Makar were still in college.

last season, Makar and Quinn outscored Dahlin. Makar was 21, Quinn was 20. Dahlin was 19. Colorado and Vancouver unleashed both of them, while Krueger focused Dahlin on learning to be complete.

Dahlin still outscored Heiskanen.
Youre shifting them as well. If were only going by age and assuming natural progression, Tyler Myers would still be a thing. The team around you matters just as much, probably more, than your age, height, weight, etc..

And Heiskanen is a much more Lidstromy type dman than everyone named. Makar, Dahlin, and Hughes are pure offense and as of today pretty poor defensively. Playoff Heiskanen is an entirely different topic. Do we see .51 ppg Miro or .97 ppg Miro next season?

Ozones starts
Hughes: 64.49%
Makar: 63.1%
Dahlin: 60.59%
Heiskanen: 52.9%

Apples to oranges imo throwing Miro in there right now talking about offensive production.

But on the flip side of all of that, if you switch Dahlin and Makar from Avs to Sabres, does Dahlin win a Calder and go into next season as a likely Norris candidate leading them as a contender? 100% yes.
 
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Der Jaeger

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Youre shifting them as well. If were only going by age and assuming natural progression, Tyler Myers would still be a thing. The team around you matters just as much, probably more, than your age, height, weight, etc..

And Heiskanen is a much more Lidstromy type dman than everyone named. Makar, Dahlin, and Hughes are pure offense and as of today pretty poor defensively. Playoff Heiskanen is an entirely different topic. Do we see .51 ppg Miro or .97 ppg Miro next season?

Ozones starts
Hughes: 64.49%
Makar: 63.1%
Dahlin: 60.59%
Heiskanen: 52.9%

Apples to oranges imo throwing Miro in there right now talking about offensive production.

But on the flip side of all of that, if you switch Dahlin and Makar from Avs to Sabres, does Dahlin win a Calder and go into next season as a likely Norris candidate leading them as a contender? 100% yes.

There’s more to the story than O zone starts. Dallas shared defensive responsibility defenders with a 5% shift toward Klingsburg getting o zone starts.

Heiskanen does have more nuanced play in his game a la Lidstrom. But a lot of his game is skating speed. Dahlin doesn’t have his speed, but Dahlin’s edge work, change of direction, and hockey IQ are superior to anyone on that list.
 

John Eichel da GOAT

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There’s more to the story than O zone starts. Dallas shared defensive responsibility defenders with a 5% shift toward Klingsburg getting o zone starts.

Heiskanen does have more nuanced play in his game a la Lidstrom. But a lot of his game is skating speed. Dahlin doesn’t have his speed, but Dahlin’s edge work, change of direction, and hockey IQ are superior to anyone on that list.
Edge work and direction, id give a good argument for Makar vs Dahlin with neither being the consensus victor and that is credit to both there. Hockey IQ is tough to gauge statistically, more of an opinion piece. I guess we can look at giveaways/takeaways which still are a rough stat because of 31 different consistencies there.

There is a good argument for Makar vs MacKinnon and McDavid in terms of pure skating ability, but I admit I am biased being in Denver seeing it nightly.
 

nickdawg95

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Edge work and direction, id give a good argument for Makar vs Dahlin with neither being the consensus victor and that is credit to both there. Hockey IQ is tough to gauge statistically, more of an opinion piece. I guess we can look at giveaways/takeaways which still are a rough stat because of 31 different consistencies there.

There is a good argument for Makar vs MacKinnon and McDavid in terms of pure skating ability, but I admit I am biased being in Denver seeing it nightly.
go back to the Avs board
 

BuffaloGooner

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Jack was on Spittin Chiclets, I thought it was a fantastic listen.

Went over his frustration with last year, offseason training, how he heard about the Hall signing, and his new puppy. His interview starts at the 42:47 mark of the podcast.

We need to have a big season in honor of his puppy, Harold
 

Royal Thunder

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Jack was on Spittin Chiclets, I thought it was a fantastic listen.

Went over his frustration with last year, offseason training, how he heard about the Hall signing, and his new puppy. His interview starts at the 42:47 mark of the podcast.

Jack is a Tame Impala fan, just when I thought I couldn’t like him any more
 
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sufferer

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Jack is a Tame Impala fan, just when I thought I couldn’t like him any more
You guys and probably every teenaged girl on the planet, although I can't say I didn't enjoy their first two albums when they first came out. :laugh:

.. and Jack is up to 213lbs now.. I was expecting ~240-250 given that IG post from Thanksgiving.
 

Royal Thunder

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You guys and probably every teenaged girl on the planet, although I can't say I didn't enjoy their first two albums when they first came out. :laugh:

.. and Jack is up to 213lbs now.. I was expecting ~240-250 given that IG post from Thanksgiving.
Tame is a lot of things but I’ve never heard of any teenage girls listening to them :laugh: Psychadelic rock isn’t exactly the teenage girl demographic
 

sufferer

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Tame is a lot of things but I’ve never heard of any teenage girls listening to them :laugh: Psychadelic rock isn’t exactly the teenage girl demographic
They're in league with the Artic Monkeys. Just mainstream indie pop/rock, very appealing and accessible music.
 

Royal Thunder

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They're in league with the Artic Monkeys. Just mainstream indie pop/rock, very appealing and accessible music.
I don’t agree but that’s ok :) I think Kevin Parker is one of the most talented and unique musicians in rock music. Arctic Monkeys are much more straightforward rock that appeals to the masses, not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Anyway back on topic, I hope Jack can catch fire early in the year and get us off to a good start
 

TheStorm

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I don’t agree but that’s ok :) I think Kevin Parker is one of the most talented and unique musicians in rock music. Arctic Monkeys are much more straightforward rock that appeals to the masses, not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Anyway back on topic, I hope Jack can catch fire early in the year and get us off to a good start
Would've agreed with you on Tame Impala being unique until this most recent record. Feels like Kevin is getting complacent. Currents was good though.
 

JLewyB

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Jack was on Spittin Chiclets, I thought it was a fantastic listen.

Went over his frustration with last year, offseason training, how he heard about the Hall signing, and his new puppy. His interview starts at the 42:47 mark of the podcast.

I listened to this the other day. He seemed like he did some serious checking out. Lake houses and puppies. He admitted to being rusty at camp. It’s showing. I also get the sense he hasn’t completely checked in. He wasn’t matching the chiclets enthusiasm like he usually does
 
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