Salary Cap: Issue with State Tax

56 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
7,669
6,561
Market the issue to Doug Ford as an unfair advantage to American hockey teams and that Ontarians want fair hockey while enjoying buck a beers.
:pcheer:
"Friends, I have had folks bring the issue of tax fairness to me in regards to our beloved Maple Leafs. These folks have pointed out that higher taxes in Canada and Ontario have allowed the Americans to outcompete us in the pursuit of quality hockey players. Friends, now that Ontario is Open for Business, I pledge to restore a level playing field by reducing taxes on selected NHL players to Make the Toronto Maple Leafs great again"!
 

Keon1963

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
309
185
I may be wrong but I believe taxation was the reason that Steven Stamkos signed with Tampa Bay instead of accepting a higher offer from Toronto.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz

Kazparov

Registered User
Jan 2, 2017
1,055
815
I may be wrong but I believe taxation was the reason that Steven Stamkos signed with Tampa Bay instead of accepting a higher offer from Toronto.

No. He was turned off by how the Leafs tried to show him he'd be the center of the universe. The money was a wash.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
40,973
32,364
St. Paul, MN
Folks overrate the tax issue - pro athletes have lots of loopholes they can use to get around a lot of them (like the fact that they play 50% of their games in out of market areas).
 

Walshy7

Registered User
Sep 18, 2016
25,326
9,343
Toronto
We don't have Provincial Sales tax, but have both federal and provincial income taxes.

Half of Lightning and Panthers games are played in Florida, so we're talking 50% without state income tax correct?

well also a game in dallas and a game in Tennessee. And I think Vegas & Arizona? possibly too? don't quote me on that but as they are all western teams its max 4 more games.

Don't you also have to factor in that ALL NHL players get paid in US dollars?

right now if you earn $1M US dollars you get to spend $1.32M Canadian dollars. Since the Canadian players spend the majority in Canada that's an advantage too no?
 

Nineteen67

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 12, 2017
22,363
9,840
We don't have Provincial Sales tax, but have both federal and provincial income taxes.

Half of Lightning and Panthers games are played in Florida, so we're talking 50% without state income tax correct?

I think, although they may even pay an entertainers tax. I really don’t know all the intricacies of tax laws, hopefully the guy I pay to mine does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ULF_55

81Leafs50

Registered User
May 14, 2010
3,153
1,251
Toronto
It is widely known states like Texas and Florida offer an advantage due to more dollars in the pocket.

Ex: Gourde recently signed for an AAV of 5.166 Million (a 60 point rookie season player). This would never happen here in Toronto, cue #29.

What as fans can we do to urge the NHL to prorate the salary cap to be the same regardless of tax jurisdiction?

even if the state and local tax are zero every NHL player has to pay 31% FEDERAL tax. compared to 51% in Ontario or something very close to that.
 

ScaredStreit

Registered User
May 5, 2006
11,082
2,970
Tampa, FL
Players also have more sponsorship opportunities in different markets, should we start to take that into consideration? There's too many outside factors that determine what a player ultimately nets. The income tax is just an easier/more obvious one to focus on. Florida (Panthers) aren't exactly a hotspot for UFAs.
 

Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
10,033
6,892
No. He was turned off by how the Leafs tried to show him he'd be the center of the universe. The money was a wash.

How so?

Leafs were offering him $10.5/year. Tampa got him for $8.5/year. The only reason those two salaries may be considered a wash, is that Stamkos saved millions due to lower taxes.

Because of their tax advantages, Tampa has effectively $3+ mil of extra cap room than the Leafs (Saved upwards of $2 mil with Stamkos, and at least $1 mil with Hedman, not even counting the rest of their deals).

That doesn't seem insignificant.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Keon1963

Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
10,033
6,892
I've yet to see any real evidence that it actually matters.

Seriously? Tampa has been able to sign most of their guys at a discounts, including Stamkos and Hedman.

If we had Tampa's tax advantage, Nylander would have already been signed, because that $1 mil or so gulf between Nylander and Dubas would have been negated by the tax differecne.
 

luvdahattymatty

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
511
405
All that needs to be said is Kucherov and Stamkos both signed below market value CAP contracts. Why? Because Tampa was very smart they hired top accountants to show each player that they would get same net money in their bank account as a player on Toronto who made over 12M per year. Enough said. So they would get the same money and help out their team.

It is very clear what is going on.

This will happen whenever you have a hard CAP system. Everyone tries to figure out how to make it work best for their team.

I don't think this one is an easy fix. I remember a long time ago it was a very complex set of questions and receipts i needed to provide. I had to provide the schedule and taxes were paid in different states and cities based on where i was on bus, in hotels and in rinks. I remember most was paid to state of Indiana. most of tax is paid to state where you play your home games. Federal tax was much easier.

Now for Leafs who reside in Ontario it must be a massive headache. But some have Florida residences so they must do it for tax reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz

56 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
7,669
6,561
All that needs to be said is Kucherov and Stamkos both signed below market value CAP contracts. Why? Because Tampa was very smart they hired top accountants to show each player that they would get same net money in their bank account as a player on Toronto who made over 12M per year. Enough said. So they would get the same money and help out their team.

It is very clear what is going on.

This will happen whenever you have a hard CAP system. Everyone tries to figure out how to make it work best for their team.

I don't think this one is an easy fix. I remember a long time ago it was a very complex set of questions and receipts i needed to provide. I had to provide the schedule and taxes were paid in different states and cities based on where i was on bus, in hotels and in rinks. I remember most was paid to state of Indiana. most of tax is paid to state where you play your home games. Federal tax was much easier.

Now for Leafs who reside in Ontario it must be a massive headache. But some have Florida residences so they must do it for tax reasons.
You and JT AM da real deal sure have similar posting styles and opinions. I'm sure it's just coincidence.
 

Kazparov

Registered User
Jan 2, 2017
1,055
815
How so?

Leafs were offering him $10.5/year. Tampa got him for $8.5/year. The only reason those two salaries may be considered a wash, is that Stamkos saved millions due to lower taxes.

Because of their tax advantages, Tampa has effectively $3+ mil of extra cap room than the Leafs (Saved upwards of $2 mil with Stamkos, and at least $1 mil with Hedman, not even counting the rest of their deals).

That doesn't seem insignificant.

Yes the money would have been similar after tax income. So the reason he did not choose Toronto wasn't money.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 18, 2015
6,283
1,356
Lake Huron
"Friends, I have had folks bring the issue of tax fairness to me in regards to our beloved Maple Leafs. These folks have pointed out that higher taxes in Canada and Ontario have allowed the Americans to outcompete us in the pursuit of quality hockey players. Friends, now that Ontario is Open for Business, I pledge to restore a level playing field by reducing taxes on selected NHL players to Make the Toronto Maple Leafs great again"!

Another guy who thinks players pay the personal tax rates. We never hear of of players Raptors or Blue Jays wanting a premium to play in Toronto because of taxes. Why? There are so many factors that goes in athletes taxes, including their incorporated sheltering. But somehow so many folks on HFBoards are tax experts.:shakehead
 
  • Like
Reactions: indigobuffalo

56 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
7,669
6,561
Another guy who thinks players pay the personal tax rates. We never hear of of players Raptors or Blue Jays wanting a premium to play in Toronto because of taxes. Why? There are so many factors that goes in athletes taxes, including their incorporated sheltering. But somehow so many folks on HFBoards are tax experts.:shakehead
Read my post history. I think nothing of the sort. I know these guys have all kinds of tax shelters.

People on these boards are so serious. I wonder if anyone recognizes a joke anymore?
 

indigobuffalo

Portage and Main
Feb 10, 2011
6,790
559
Winnipeg MB
It is widely known states like Texas and Florida offer an advantage due to more dollars in the pocket.

Ex: Gourde recently signed for an AAV of 5.166 Million (a 60 point rookie season player). This would never happen here in Toronto, cue #29.

What as fans can we do to urge the NHL to prorate the salary cap to be the same regardless of tax jurisdiction?

Um... you are aware there’s still a Federal US tax rate and that Alberta has no provincial sales tax so why aren’t people flooding to Calgary? Edmonton?

Because Edmonton is a -50°C ice coffin during the winter and it’s not a vibrant metropolis.

Your argument makes no sense because then you have to offset other factors that make a determination like how Canada pays public school teachers more than double on average what American teachers earn. How about our free Healthcare up here in Canada. Not all NHLers are making $8M a year.

There is no “advantage” for teams with low tax rates over high tax rate teams. That’s just something ignorant people think up because it sounds like it could make sense. There’s zero data that backs it up.
 
Last edited:

indigobuffalo

Portage and Main
Feb 10, 2011
6,790
559
Winnipeg MB
How about factoring in the issue that the salaries are paid in US dollars and the Canadian dollar is almost 50% of the USD. So actually Canadian players are paid double their American counterparts based on buying power.
 

Chris18820

Registered User
Nov 11, 2018
466
320
How about factoring in the issue that the salaries are paid in US dollars and the Canadian dollar is almost 50% of the USD. So actually Canadian players are paid double their American counterparts based on buying power.
What are you talking about? Your really an accountant? CAD is worth about 77% of USD, which is no where near 50%.
No Canadians arent paid double, they arent even paid equal. $100000 USD buys you more housing, groceries, vehicles, gasoline etc in the US than $131000 CAD does here.

The tax advantage playing in the tax free states isnt as large as people think but it does exist.
 

Chris18820

Registered User
Nov 11, 2018
466
320
It is long over due for the NHL to level the playing field. It's ludicrous that our Leafs have to pay into revenue sharing and compete with teams located in tax free states to sign players.
The icing on the cake is we cant keep players we draft and develop ala William Nylander, who might end up in one of these states.
 

Chris18820

Registered User
Nov 11, 2018
466
320
I've yet to see any real evidence that it actually matters.
What would be your theory on why a Canadian team hasnt won the Stanley Cup in 25 years?
If all teams are equally likely to win the probability of this happening is ~ .001
 

indigobuffalo

Portage and Main
Feb 10, 2011
6,790
559
Winnipeg MB
All that needs to be said is Kucherov and Stamkos both signed below market value CAP contracts. Why? Because Tampa was very smart they hired top accountants to show each player that they would get same net money in their bank account as a player on Toronto who made over 12M per year. Enough said. So they would get the same money and help out their team.

It is very clear what is going on.

This will happen whenever you have a hard CAP system. Everyone tries to figure out how to make it work best for their team.

I don't think this one is an easy fix. I remember a long time ago it was a very complex set of questions and receipts i needed to provide. I had to provide the schedule and taxes were paid in different states and cities based on where i was on bus, in hotels and in rinks. I remember most was paid to state of Indiana. most of tax is paid to state where you play your home games. Federal tax was much easier.

Now for Leafs who reside in Ontario it must be a massive headache. But some have Florida residences so they must do it for tax reasons.

As of tonight the USD closed at a value of 1.32 to the CAD. All contracts are paid in USD. That means if you are paid $10M USD, in Canada it’s the equivalent of receiving $13.2M.

So Stamkos is an idiot because he could’ve netted an extra couple $MM signing in Toronto.
 

Chris18820

Registered User
Nov 11, 2018
466
320
As of tonight the USD closed at a value of 1.32 to the CAD. All contracts are paid in USD. That means if you are paid $10M USD, in Canada it’s the equivalent of receiving $13.2M.

So Stamkos is an idiot because he could’ve netted an extra couple $MM signing in Toronto.

Yes but it still results in less purchasing power..
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->