ISS top 10 for May

[faucon]

The switch

Why the new switch between Brule and Johnson ?

- Johnson did a mistake during the last month ?
- The scouts watched some old games ?

Someone can explain that ?

 

[Fozz]

I have not seen him do anything to justify a top 5 position. Brule and Ryan were real offensive threats and outscored Benoit Pouliot. And the fact that Pouliot just had one good year is a good reason not to take him before #5. Look how Ladd was drafted too high. People got excited about him and his only good year, look at how poor he's playing this year.

That's a very narrow-minded way of looking at things. Pouliot only had 1 good season because he only played one OHL season! Ladd did struggle this year but what does that have to do with Pouliot? The fact that he was outscord by Brule and Ryan means absolutely nothing since Sudbury was a defense-first team. I have seen him do plenty to justify a NHL drafting him before those 2. The main factor being the fact that he is an incredible skater that has tremendous upside. When he fills out a little more, he will something!

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Dont worry markov, Pouliot will not be drafted 2nd overall. I can assure you of that!

How would you know?

What a silly and stupid statement to make about the draft. What, you've seen the draft boards of every single team in the league? Of course you haven't.

You can't make that kind of statement.

I'm sure there were plenty of posters ready to assure me that Wheeler would not go top 10 last year. They would have just made themselves look stupid, like you are doing by making a statement like that.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I have not seen him do anything to justify a top 5 position. Brule and Ryan were real offensive threats and outscored Benoit Pouliot. And the fact that Pouliot just had one good year is a good reason not to take him before #5. Look how Ladd was drafted too high. People got excited about him and his only good year, look at how poor he's playing this year.

Ladd looked pretty good in most of the games I saw. He's a solid prospect.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

My comments about the list: the hype around Pouliot is ridiculous.

And I would've said the same of Brule. To each their own.

And certainly there will be teams that disagree with each other on those guys.

 

[markov`]

And I would've said the same of Brule. To each their own.

And certainly there will be teams that disagree with each other on those guys.

Brule isn't rated #2 by ISS... and this a comment about the ISS list.

Ladd looked pretty good in most of the games I saw. He's a solid prospect.

45 points in 65 games in a junior league just shows that he will never be any good offensively. Solid defensive prospect maybe, he will be a good checking liner in the NHL no doubt but that doesn't justify why he was drafted so high.

How would you know?

What a silly and stupid statement to make about the draft. What, you've seen the draft boards of every single team in the league? Of course you haven't.

You can't make that kind of statement.

I'm sure there were plenty of posters ready to assure me that Wheeler would not go top 10 last year. They would have just made themselves look stupid, like you are doing by making a statement like that.

If Pouliot isn't picked #2, he will be right so you have no reason to bash him. NHL scouts are smarter than ISS I hope - there's no way Pouliot is a better prospect than Jack Johnson.

 

[Hossa]

If Pouliot isn't picked #2, he will be right so you have no reason to bash him. NHL scouts are smarter than ISS I hope - there's no way Pouliot is a better prospect than Jack Johnson.

So, NHL scouts are superior to ISS, so ISS's opinion means little, yet you feel qualified to criticize ISS? So, NHL scouts > you > ISS?

Redline has Pouliot #3 ahead of Johnson (who is 5th). CSS's mid term rankings had Pouliot #2 as well. So, the three major professional scouting services out there all have Pouliot ahead of Johnson and Ryan. Now, if he was high on one list and low on the others, you may have a point, but there seems to be pretty universal agreement among the scouting community that releases lists (which obviously doesn't include NHL teams) that Pouliot could very easily be taken second overall.

At the end of the day, there are four, maybe five players who could all potentially go second overall: Pouliot, Johnson, Brule, Ryan and possibly Kopitar. To suggest as one poster did, that there is no chance Pouliot goes #2, is laughable.

And the comparisons to Ladd are further proof that some people don't know enough about Pouliot. I mean, Ladd didn't score a lot in the BCHL at 16 or 17, so....that proves that Pouliot is overhyped, or won't be as good as some thing, or what? Talk about a stretch.

 

[Brock]

That's a very narrow-minded way of looking at things. Pouliot only had 1 good season because he only played one OHL season! Ladd did struggle this year but what does that have to do with Pouliot? The fact that he was outscord by Brule and Ryan means absolutely nothing since Sudbury was a defense-first team. I have seen him do plenty to justify a NHL drafting him before those 2. The main factor being the fact that he is an incredible skater that has tremendous upside. When he fills out a little more, he will something!

Agreed that statement is laughable. He's talking like Pouliot doesn't have high end potential like the other players.

The reason he has only played one full season in the OHL had something to do with a family concern If I'm not mistaken. I can't remember the exact details, maybe someone here can chime in on the exacts. But I think it had something to do with his sick mother or father and him not wanting to leave them at that moment in time to go play hockey in Sudbury.

I personally see no problem with Pouliot second overall. Quite frankly, He'd be third on my list behind Crosby and Johnson, but Its nearly a toss up. I'd have him ahead of Brule and Ryan.

 

[Kitsune]

Agreed that statement is laughable. He's talking like Pouliot doesn't have high end potential like the other players.

The reason he has only played one full season in the OHL had something to do with a family concern If I'm not mistaken. I can't remember the exact details, maybe someone here can chime in on the exacts. But I think it had something to do with his sick mother or father and him not wanting to leave them at that moment in time to go play hockey in Sudbury.

I personally see no problem with Pouliot second overall. Quite frankly, He'd be third on my list behind Crosby and Johnson, but Its nearly a toss up. I'd have him ahead of Brule and Ryan.

His father was sick with cancer, and actually died the night he made his OHL debut I believe too. Theres also Lecavliers quote of telling Pouliot that he'll go top 5 in the draft this past summer when Pouliot was in a summer league with Lecav. Did Lecav ever nail that one on the head....

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

If Pouliot isn't picked #2, he will be right so you have no reason to bash him.

That makes no sense. Like pretty much everything you have to say on this thread.

And many others.

Your comparisons between Ladd and Pouliot do not make sense. Your comments about Ladd, once again, make no sense but that's nothing new.

These are very different draft year. Ladd's draft position doesn't exist in a vacuum but rather in direct relation to the rest of his draft year. All drafts are not equal. All best players at 1st overall are not equal. All players drafted 4th overall are not equal and so on.

What you would insist to compare two prospects as different as Pouliot and Ladd is beyond me. They have almost nothing in common. Nor do these drafts have anything in common either.

 

[faucon]

In my mind, if I want a player with talent, loves the game and a lot of leadership ... my guy will be Brule. Any Brule fans here ?

I like the others guys too. I just want a "franchise" player for my team. The ranks and the opinions are really differents.

Johnson is so good ?

 

[Vikke]

What are your thoughts on Michael Blunden? I really like that kid since he was great for me when playing NHL EHM.

 

[markov`]

That makes no sense. Like pretty much everything you have to say on this thread.

And many others.

Your comparisons between Ladd and Pouliot do not make sense. Your comments about Ladd, once again, make no sense but that's nothing new.

These are very different draft year. Ladd's draft position doesn't exist in a vacuum but rather in direct relation to the rest of his draft year. All drafts are not equal. All best players at 1st overall are not equal. All players drafted 4th overall are not equal and so on.

What you would insist to compare two prospects as different as Pouliot and Ladd is beyond me. They have almost nothing in common. Nor do these drafts have anything in common either.

Oh I'm sorry, I should've know that Vlad the Impaler is always right.

Both Ladd and Pouliot are over-hyped because of one 'good year'. That's what they have in common. I thought that the great genius from HF Boards would understand that.

 

[Ismellofhockey]

Oh I'm sorry, I should've know that Vlad the Impaler is always right.

Now you're getting somewhere

From what the Wolves management says in the ISS report (which can be found by typing benoit pouliot in google) Pouliot would have spent half that year in the OHL had they not had an agreement with Hawkesbury of the CJHL. From the four games they saw in december where he scored 4 points they knew he could help them but were forced to send him back. Contrary to Ladd, Pouliot's skill was never in doubt according to the Wolves, it's his bulk that kept him back but he added 15lbs last summer which is what really made him more effective. With that in mind it seems like Pouliot simply needed to grow sideways a little but has been progressing fairly well over the past 2 years, so maybe the 1 season wonder thing is a little out-of-bounds as of yet.

 

[turnbuckle*]

Oh I'm sorry, I should've know that Vlad the Impaler is always right.

Both Ladd and Pouliot are over-hyped because of one 'good year'. That's what they have in common. I thought that the great genius from HF Boards would understand that.

All this statement reveals is that you're ignorant and presumptuous.

Pouliot had a "good year" last season, it just didn't happen to be in the OHL. Once again, to try to get it through the thickness of your cranium, his father was dying of cancer, so he stayed at home. You have apparently ignored that fact, and several others.

Another of those facts is that a great many NHL scouts "still" feel that Ladd will be a terrific NHLer. I'm talking NHL scouts, not someone who looks at a players stats the year after he's drafted and makes the bold determination that said player will be a flop.

Were you at the WJC this past year? Oh that's right, you were the fellow up in the handicapped section with the white cane and guard dog.

Were you at the WHL playoffs?

Apparently you missed both, because Ladd showed glimpses of what's to come in the future with his performances at both. Nope; he's not going to be a 50-goal scorer (who is in today's NHL?), and he may never average a point per game in a season (although that's still up for debate), but he brings so much more to the table that it's not even funny. The kid is a complete player with size, and the potential to improve. Most importantly, he comes to play in big games.

What makes this even more of a joke is that, as has also been stated several times, Ladd and Pouliot are not the same type of player. The only thing close to similarity is their height, which, I guess considering that you rely purely on stats for your summations, is why you insist on lumping the two rather unfairly in the "busts to be" category. Give it a rest.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Oh I'm sorry, I should've know that Vlad the Impaler is always right.

Both Ladd and Pouliot are over-hyped because of one 'good year'. That's what they have in common. I thought that the great genius from HF Boards would understand that.

I understand it. I just don't understand what it has to do with them being compared when they are extremely different players.

Patrice Bergeron also followed pretty much the exact Pouliot model in the CHL. What does that tell you?

Again, you make no sense. You're saying Pouliot is overhyped because of one good year. Yet, you admit readily having seen Johnson only one SINGLE tournament and here are your comments:

Take Jack Johnson and run. He's as safe as they come, and the sky's the limit for him.

You're basically blaming professionals for making an assessment based on a certain sample of games. But you have absolutely no problem making assessments based on a MUCH SMALLER sample

 

[Greg7]

Hopefully without turning this into yet another Ladd thread, Pouliot is nothing at all like Ladd. Even the one superficial similarity of them both having good draft seasons after being previously unknown is not very good. Ladd was not previously on the map because he wasn't good enough to make the WHL. Pouliot conciously decided not to play in the OHL.

More importantly, scouts, unlike many people here seemingly, do not judge players based on stats but based on play. Pouliot has great offensive tools, and good skating and size. This is not related to the kind of statistical year he had. He can have a good statistical year, but he can't have a good "talent" year. The talent is either there or it isn't, and that is what scouts are judging him on, not his stats, or the kind of year he had.

In the same way, Ladd didn't have one good year, he showed people for the first time that he has the tools to be a good NHLer. He happened to have a good statistical year at the same time, but that was unimportant and not why scouts liked him. His poor statistical year this season is unimportant in the same way. I'm not going to argue that Ladd will be a top line player or a great scorer, because I don't think he will, but I also don't think that's why he was picked high to begin with. The things he showed last season causing him to be drafted high were still there this season, so in that sense he didn't really have a bad year. I think maybe it did become more obvious to the average fan that he's not a conventional elite offensive talent, but that doesn't mean he can't be a very important contributor to an NHL team and be more than just a regular old third liner checker/grinder.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

I admit it, I'm on the Pouliot train, I don't know about 2nd overall but I like this kid as a top 5 prospect. His long rangey frame, excellent dangle, great offensive instincts, surprisingly shifty & elusive, and his stride and speed make him a hot commedity. He's all finnesse though and has some major bust potential. I don't see him going hard in the corners to create, and that raises serious concerns. It should be fun to see his development. If you're looking for a home run and are willing to take risks, he's probally your guy at #2. Boom or bust prospect IMO. I'm not completely sold on Bobby Ryan either but I haven't seen him much at all this year to be honest, and he left a sour taste in my mouth the previous year because of his skating. Can someone tell me if he is the Rick Nash of this draft though? A kid with amazing offensive tools who has skating issues?

I really like this Bourret kid, along with O'Marra and Setoguchi. I saw Kopitar (finally) vs Germany, and he's got Vanek like ability with much better defense.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

45 points in 65 games in a junior league just shows that he will never be any good offensively.

That's one of the stupidest things I've heard come out of your mouth.

No, that doesn't prove he will "never be any good offensively". That happens to be your apparently uninformed opinion on that matter.

A lot of people have made their opinions from watching the kid play and I know professionals will have done the same. Your stat watching doesn't make you an expert on him at all. I've seen how Ladd can click with skilled offensive players both in a tournament setting, the regular season and the playoffs. And his game should translate quite well to the NHL level as he's already quite physically mature, is aggressive physically and has the skill to play on the top two lines.

You're not going to convince anyone by harping on his stats all the time. It just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. The people who watch kids play a lot don't just focus on stats as if they told 100% of the story. You know why? Because stats don't really tell us that much most of the time. You HAVE to watch the kid play (preferably live) to get a sense of how he'll adapt to the NHL game.

 

[Brock]

I've seen how Ladd can click with skilled offensive players both in a tournament setting, the regular season and the playoffs. And his game should translate quite well to the NHL level as he's already quite physically mature, is aggressive physically and has the skill to play on the top two lines.

I think thats the key with Ladd. His offensive game is elevated to the level of his linemmates. His versatility is what makes him a good prospect, because he has the attitude and grind to be a crunch 3rd liner, but also a decent enough skill set for a scoring line. He's never going to be that guy on a scoring line who's creating all the offense and his linemmates are just along for the ride. He's the guy on the scoring line who works his ass off, and is smart and skilled enough to keep up. As Greg said above, I agree with him in the sense that his point totals this year (while still disappointing) are inconsequential because of the fact we know what Ladd brings to the table.

 

[turnbuckle*]

I admit it, I'm on the Pouliot train, I don't know about 2nd overall but I like this kid as a top 5 prospect. His long rangey frame, excellent dangle, great offensive instincts, surprisingly shifty & elusive, and his stride and speed make him a hot commedity. He's all finnesse though and has some major bust potential. I don't see him going hard in the corners to create, and that raises serious concerns. It should be fun to see his development. If you're looking for a home run and are willing to take risks, he's probally your guy at #2. Boom or bust prospect IMO. I'm not completely sold on Bobby Ryan either but I haven't seen him much at all this year to be honest, and he left a sour taste in my mouth the previous year because of his skating. Can someone tell me if he is the Rick Nash of this draft though? A kid with amazing offensive tools who has skating issues?

I really like this Bourret kid, along with O'Marra and Setoguchi. I saw Kopitar (finally) vs Germany, and he's got Vanek like ability with much better defense.

That's a pretty good description of Pouliot from what I've heard from the scouts, and to a lesser extent, seen myself, Sharkie. I think he's a lot closer to a boom than a bust, but he's certainly not ever going to be mistaken for Joe Thornton or the old Lindros.

I've suggested that he has the potential to be a Jean Ratelle-type player, but he certainly has a long way to go in the grit department to compare to the slick skating ex-Ranger/Bruin. Ratelle fought through some pretty tough customers in his day for consistent point totals every year while avoiding penalty minutes. Big Jean wasn't afraid to drive to the net most of the time, and if Pouliot can attain that atitude, he has Ratelle-like potential.

As for Ryan, I haven't polled too many scouts on his ranking, but those I've spoken to, are impressed. He has uncanny ability in the slot that will translate well to the NHL. Great hands, almost impossible to check when he gets the puck in the scoring zones.

Kopitar is a real wild card IMO. Some may like him more than Pouliot, but I don't see him being picked over Ryan. Ryan IMO is the safest pick of the three, and the most likely to be picked first. Mind you, Johnson and Brule could well be picked in front of all three of them, and Staal, for all his poor rankings, is also a possibilty to be picked in the top five.

This is one of those years where I think there might be a number of surpises after the first pick. There is no clear #2, #3, #4, and so on. Brule could go 2nd, or Johnson, or Pouliot, or Ryan....should be fun for us "armchair GMs".

It's going to really depend on the draft order and team needs I would think when there is no clear-cut difference in prospects. GMs will always say they're picking the best player available, but that more than often means the "best player to save my ass" when it comes to top six picks. You're picking in the top six? It usually means you're team sucks, and the noose is nearby.

 

[bert]

Pouliot and Ladd are almost complete opposite types of players. Ladd will be a way better grinding/punishing type player. Ladd is that perfect complimentary type of guy to play with a very good offensive player, for example Getzlaf in Calgary and Stall in Carolina. He gets by on hard work going to the net with decent offensive instincts.

Pouliot is the exact opposite, he is good because he is so talented. If he had Ladd's drive for hard work he would be the unquestionable second pick of this draft. He has boatloads of talent a giant frame a big smooth powerful skater exceptional hands and incredible offensive instincts he knows where his linemates are at all times. But he needs to be smarter and more consistent, he is a very immature player at this point both physicaly (for an 18 year old) and mentally. He will fill out even more and he will be more mature. I feel he will be more of a late bloomer when he makes the nhl as a first line player. He is an 86 but his development was slow to begin with plus he has had his family issues to deal with that slowed him even more.

The difference between Pouliot and Ladd is Pouliot will always be the go to guy on his line,while Ladd will be that perfect compliment for the player like Pouliot.

Really they have nothing in common other than a good draft year statistically.

 

[ktownhockey]

That's a pretty good description of Pouliot from what I've heard from the scouts, and to a lesser extent, seen myself, Sharkie. I think he's a lot closer to a boom than a bust, but he's certainly not ever going to be mistaken for Joe Thornton or the old Lindros.

I've suggested that he has the potential to be a Jean Ratelle-type player, but he certainly has a long way to go in the grit department to compare to the slick skating ex-Ranger/Bruin. Ratelle fought through some pretty tough customers in his day for consistent point totals every year while avoiding penalty minutes. Big Jean wasn't afraid to drive to the net most of the time, and if Pouliot can attain that atitude, he has Ratelle-like potential.

As for Ryan, I haven't polled too many scouts on his ranking, but those I've spoken to, are impressed. He has uncanny ability in the slot that will translate well to the NHL. Great hands, almost impossible to check when he gets the puck in the scoring zones.

Kopitar is a real wild card IMO. Some may like him more than Pouliot, but I don't see him being picked over Ryan. Ryan IMO is the safest pick of the three, and the most likely to be picked first. Mind you, Johnson and Brule could well be picked in front of all three of them, and Staal, for all his poor rankings, is also a possibilty to be picked in the top five.

This is one of those years where I think there might be a number of surpises after the first pick. There is no clear #2, #3, #4, and so on. Brule could go 2nd, or Johnson, or Pouliot, or Ryan....should be fun for us "armchair GMs".

It's going to really depend on the draft order and team needs I would think when there is no clear-cut difference in prospects. GMs will always say they're picking the best player available, but that more than often means the "best player to save my ass" when it comes to top six picks. You're picking in the top six? It usually means you're team sucks, and the noose is nearby.

See, Im in between on the Pouliot train ... Im partly biased because I watched him play in the CJHL in the 2003-2004 season and although he was very good he didn't dominate like a player going 2nd over in the NHL draft the next year should.. HOWEVER.. people do improve and play better when the competition is better nad Benoit is a prime example of that... I belive that he's got a good combination of everything and he's a pretty safe pick and could develop more offensive skills which woul dmake him look like a steal at 5... I think he's top 5 but I do not have him ahead of Crosby, Brule or Johnson...

I hope he does well.. and is a top 5 pick... he might change my mind with an MVP performance at netx years world juniors though

 

[Stiffler's Mom]

Pouliot's stats as an 18 yr old are very similar to Brule's stats as a 16 yr old. Brule's offensive stats are significantly better.

Benoit Pouliot as 18 yr old
GP G A Pts
67 28 38 67

Gilbert Brule as 16 yr old
GP G A Pts
67 25 35 60

Pouliot finished 33rd in OHL scoring this season and Brule finished 3rd. No comparison at least offensively anyway. I give Pouliot one advantage and that is his size. However I give the edge to Brule in physical play.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Pouliot's stats as an 18 yr old are very similar to Brule's stats as a 16 yr old. Brule's offensive stats are significantly better.

Benoit Pouliot as 18 yr old
GP G A Pts
67 28 38 67

Gilbert Brule as 16 yr old
GP G A Pts
67 25 35 60

Pouliot finished 33rd in OHL scoring this season and Brule finished 3rd. No comparison at least offensively anyway. I give Pouliot one advantage and that is his size. However I give the edge to Brule in physical play.

"But Pouliot plays on a defensive team"