ISS Top 10 for December

[ChemiseBleuHonnete]

And I'm sure there was a time several years ago when someone said "Paul Kariya will never score as many goals as Daigle."

Well, Daigle wasn't nearly skilled as Crosby to begin with. Crosby will likely not bust imo. Also, I said that Brulé will score more goals than Crosby because monster_bertuzzi and Jay Thompson (who saw them both I guess) said that Brulé has a way better shot (if that's the case, Brulé is going to be a 50-goal scorer in the nhl one day).

 

[King'sPawn]

Well, Daigle wasn't nearly skilled as Crosby to begin with. Crosby will likely not bust imo.

You apparently are forgetting how much hype that surrounded Daigle... and the fact that you're saying Daigle wasn't nearly skilled as Crosby just adds to the hype, in my opinion.

Just some quotes:
10. Alexandre Daigle
He broke some of Mario Lemieux's scoring records in juniors and was hailed as, well, the next Lemieux when Ottawa made him the first pick in the 1993 draft. But he never scored more than 51 points in a season and eventually played himself out of the NHL (he's back with the Penguins this season).
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/phenomflops.html

At the 1993 NHL Entry Draft, the No. 1 pick went to the expansion Ottawa Senators, and they made sure they nabbed the player who many felt was going to be the next Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux.

The hype that surrounded Daigle was so intense that a solid rookie season, consisting of 51 points (20+31), was not enough for the fans of Ottawa. He would spend parts of the next four seasons with the Senators, but again his respectable numbers did not cut it. They rarely do when the expectations have gone through the roof.
http://www.theahl.com/AHLOnTheBeat03/0122.html

Daigle, 24, never lived up to expectations placed on him by the Senators franchise. He was brought in to sell tickets, which in turn would help get the financing for the Corel Centre. He was considered a marketing dream.

But potential never turned into production for Daigle in Ottawa. Instead, as Alexei Yashin took the spotlight, the guy everybody thought was going to be the next Mr. Hockey had a tough time making it happen on the ice.
http://www.geocities.com/inthesharkstank/article10.html

Daigle was being compared to Lemieux and Gretzky; the next Mr. Hockey. Now he's a warning sign.

Again, I'm not saying Crosby will bust, but it kills me when people are so sure of how well a prospect will do at the NHL level, that any other notion of someone else outperforming that prospect gets blown off as some foolish thought.

My point is, you just don't know. It's certainly fun to speculate, but it's a fallacy to label anyone as a "sure thing."

 

[Hiishawk]

You apparently are forgetting how much hype that surrounded Daigle... and the fact that you're saying Daigle wasn't nearly skilled as Crosby just adds to the hype, in my opinion.

Just some quotes:
10. Alexandre Daigle
He broke some of Mario Lemieux's scoring records in juniors and was hailed as, well, the next Lemieux when Ottawa made him the first pick in the 1993 draft. But he never scored more than 51 points in a season and eventually played himself out of the NHL (he's back with the Penguins this season).
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/phenomflops.html

At the 1993 NHL Entry Draft, the No. 1 pick went to the expansion Ottawa Senators, and they made sure they nabbed the player who many felt was going to be the next Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux.

The hype that surrounded Daigle was so intense that a solid rookie season, consisting of 51 points (20+31), was not enough for the fans of Ottawa. He would spend parts of the next four seasons with the Senators, but again his respectable numbers did not cut it. They rarely do when the expectations have gone through the roof.
http://www.theahl.com/AHLOnTheBeat03/0122.html

Daigle, 24, never lived up to expectations placed on him by the Senators franchise. He was brought in to sell tickets, which in turn would help get the financing for the Corel Centre. He was considered a marketing dream.

But potential never turned into production for Daigle in Ottawa. Instead, as Alexei Yashin took the spotlight, the guy everybody thought was going to be the next Mr. Hockey had a tough time making it happen on the ice.
http://www.geocities.com/inthesharkstank/article10.html

Daigle was being compared to Lemieux and Gretzky; the next Mr. Hockey. Now he's a warning sign.

Again, I'm not saying Crosby will bust, but it kills me when people are so sure of how well a prospect will do at the NHL level, that any other notion of someone else outperforming that prospect gets blown off as some foolish thought.

My point is, you just don't know. It's certainly fun to speculate, but it's a fallacy to label anyone as a "sure thing."

Sorry but you've got it wrong. The quotes above are clearly NOT examples of the hype surrounding Daigle. They are all post-fact reminisinces of the hype surrounding Daigle. To prove your point you should instead be posting quotes that show the actual pre-draft hype,not just other people (wrongly IMO) exxagerating how hyped he once had been after he flopped.

In short, your "proof" just begs the question- was he really as hyped as people say? I say absolutely no. He was not as hyped as Crosby is now and for good reason- Crosby is a much better prospect. And yes, I saw Daigle a lot as a junior.

And of course no one is a 100% sure thing but you don't need to say that on a prospects board. It's a given, OK? But the fact is Crosby is as sure a thing as any prospect out there- let us at least say that without resorting to this "But Daigle..." business for the umpteenth time.

Just a note regarding the alleged Daigle to Gretzky/Lemiueux comparisons. All I ever heard when Daigle was a junior was that, while he had NHL star potential, he shouldn't be compared to those guys because they were in a league of their own. I challenge anybody to find a quote from a reliable source claiming Daigle was to be the next Gretzky/Lemeiux. You'll find that just about everybody at that time was in fact WARNING against making any such comparisons.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Sorry but you've got it wrong. The quotes above are clearly NOT examples of the hype surrounding Daigle. They are all post-fact reminisinces of the hype surrounding Daigle. To prove your point you should instead be posting quotes that show the actual pre-draft hype,not just other people (wrongly IMO) exxagerating how hyped he once had been after he flopped.

In short, your "proof" just begs the question- was he really as hyped as people say? I say absolutely no. He was not as hyped as Crosby is now and for good reason- Crosby is a much better prospect. And yes, I saw Daigle a lot as a junior.

And of course no one is a 100% sure thing but you don't need to say that on a prospects board. It's a given, OK? But the fact is Crosby is as sure a thing as any prospect out there- let us at least say that without resorting to this "But Daigle..." business for the umpteenth time.

Just a note regarding the alleged Daigle to Gretzky/Lemiueux comparisons. All I ever heard when Daigle was a junior was that, while he had NHL star potential, he shouldn't be compared to those guys because they were in a league of their own. I challenge anybody to find a quote from a reliable source claiming Daigle was to be the next Gretzky/Lemeiux. You'll find that just about everybody at that time was in fact WARNING against making any such comparisons.

Obviously hype is going to be bigger with the internet and every form of media today. There are stations that are specificly for hockey....with no NHL season, what else will they talk about. Back in the early 90's we had TSN and CBC. TSN didn't do too much draft coverage and CBC would have a futures look once in a while. There was no junior games on TV like today. Obviously the hype will be bigger now.

 

[Blane Youngblood]

I think the one thing that I think of about the Daigle hype was that it was claimed that Ottawa was tanking games to land Daigle. That speaks volumes about highly regarded he was. Also, note how many points Daigle put up in his draft year and the year before, those numbers alone are enough for a prospect to get major hype.

 

[balddog66]

any yet all of Lemieuxs important records in the Q still stand, what records did Daigle break, a single game record? Lemieux still holds most goals, assist and points in a season, by far..

 

[markov`]

Your vision is not your main weapon for scoring goals. That's also a fact and not fiction.

Sorry. Having a great vision will help you score goal very much. When you are aware of where the opposite defensemen and your teammates are, you can position yourself better. Do you play hockey? Surely not, because if you did, you'd understand that having a great vision is sometimes a better asset to have than good skating or shot.

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

I dont know if the CHL's scoring was significantly different in 1991 but Crosby is statistically better than Daigle. 54 goals in 59 games in his first year is better than the 35 and 45 that Daigle has.

jin - Its also been thought Phoenix tanked to beat NY Rangers to the 5th spot (the last spot in which it was possible to win the lottery and the #1 pick).

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Well, Daigle wasn't nearly skilled as Crosby to begin with. Crosby will likely not bust imo. Also, I said that Brulé will score more goals than Crosby because monster_bertuzzi and Jay Thompson (who saw them both I guess) said that Brulé has a way better shot (if that's the case, Brulé is going to be a 50-goal scorer in the nhl one day).

Shooting is about all Brule has on Crosby right now. Its tough to tell who will score more (goals, not points) in the NHL at this point.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Sorry. Having a great vision will help you score goal very much. When you are aware of where the opposite defensemen and your teammates are, you can position yourself better. Do you play hockey? Surely not, because if you did, you'd understand that having a great vision is sometimes a better asset to have than good skating or shot.

Agree 100% If i'm grading out a prospect...I find that vision and hockey sense are the two biggest factors along with skating at making it at the next level. I say you can score more goals at the next level with elite vision before an elite shot.

It's not like Crosby can't shoot btw..IMO he still is probally in the top 5 in 2005 when it comes to shooting skills.

I personally can't waite for the WJC's and i'm not touching my rankings untill I see the WJC's, which well take me until about February to recieve all the tapes and digest them.

I think Kindl is going to prove why he well be a top 5 pick in 2005, I expect Jakub Kindl to perform very well at the tournament. I think there is room in the top 10 for a hot new coming talented forward to make his mark and IMO it's going to be either Zagrapan or Bergfors if they want it. If either puts up a huge tournament he will likely find him self in the top 5 in 2005. Teemu Laakkso is another name who could make a top 10 march with a very strong performance. Tuukka Rask IMO well show a lot of people great things and should make him self a top 5 pick or so once the tournament is done.

The top 5 in 2005 could easily be Crosby, Brule, Kindl, Johnson, Rask IMO. Based on raw skill they have to be. Kindl and Rask could solidify there spots with good tournaments and Johnson already might have with excellent play with the U-18 team and an huge performance at the Four nations.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

There's a great interview with Jack Johnson up at McKeen's. Not only does he have fantastic skills, but he's already taking a professional approach to how he prepares and plays the game. He sounds like he's in peak physical condition.

 

[THE NEXT ONE #87]

Agree 100% If i'm grading out a prospect...I find that vision and hockey sense are the two biggest factors along with skating at making it at the next level. I say you can score more goals at the next level with elite vision before an elite shot.

It's not like Crosby can't shoot btw..IMO he still is probally in the top 5 in 2005 when it comes to shooting skills.


The top 5 in 2005 could easily be Crosby, Brule, Kindl, Johnson, Rask IMO. Based on raw skill they have to be. Kindl and Rask could solidify there spots with good tournaments and Johnson already might have with excellent play with the U-18 team and an huge performance at the Four nations.

I agree. Crosby´s shoot is in the top 3 in 2005 and with his hockey sense and vision he is the best goal scorer. Even Brule might have a better shoot. Sid´s one timer and wrist shoot are also amazing...

 

[Blane Youngblood]

jin - Its also been thought Phoenix tanked to beat NY Rangers to the 5th spot (the last spot in which it was possible to win the lottery and the #1 pick).

How much hype was there for the guy that went #1?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

How much hype was there for the guy that went #1?

I think he was referring to last year. Ovechkin went #1 with Phoenix picking Blake Wheeler at #5 and the Rangers taking Al Montoya at #6.

 

[espo*]

While it is always possible Crosby could bust or at least not meet expectations i think we are looking at the real deal in him.Not real deal in the sense of a Gretzky or Lemieux numbers type guy but real deal in terms of outstanding offensive talent who has the ability to take over games in many ways.There seems to be something special about him,like he was born to play hockey...i know it sounds corny but that's what i see in the guy.His dedication and total love for the game impresses the heck out of me,he's always been singuarly dedicated to the game and when you add that to the skills he has those guys are usually the best.That backyard rink type of guy who always lived and breathed the game.......you can just tell he's a major talent..the kind that does'nt swing around every day.I think the only way he can not become a super star is if injuries hit...i sure hope they don't because i'm convinced he's going to be something to watch for many years in hockey,he will give us some memories we will always remember...i'm confident of that.(would like to see him level out to 6 feet or 6 feet one inches however) I'm really rooting for him.

 

[moosefan]

The problem is on here, when people put him in the class with he greats people jus look at the number Gretzky having over 200 points a year, Mario getting 199 points. But that is when the NHL was a high scoring league. Gordie Howe never put up 200 points a year but is in the catagory with them it is on how you dominate your era. Crosby has the ability to be the most dominant player in the NHL for years to come, now he looks to be the real deal right now because not only does he have the skill but he has the fire and drive to succeed...something Daigle lacked by the way. IMO Gretzky would not be putting up 200+ points in todays NHL not even at his prime, I would say Gretzky would be around the 150 in points in todays NHL. So people should not say well Crosby won't score 200 point...well that era is gone now.

 

[THE NEXT ONE #87]

The problem is on here, when people put him in the class with he greats people jus look at the number Gretzky having over 200 points a year, Mario getting 199 points. But that is when the NHL was a high scoring league. Gordie Howe never put up 200 points a year but is in the catagory with them it is on how you dominate your era. Crosby has the ability to be the most dominant player in the NHL for years to come, now he looks to be the real deal right now because not only does he have the skill but he has the fire and drive to succeed...something Daigle lacked by the way. IMO Gretzky would not be putting up 200+ points in todays NHL not even at his prime, I would say Gretzky would be around the 150 in points in todays NHL. So people should not say well Crosby won't score 200 point...well that era is gone now.

But maybe the NHL changes rules of goalie equipment... or something other which leads to more goals...

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Sorry. Having a great vision will help you score goal very much. When you are aware of where the opposite defensemen and your teammates are, you can position yourself better. Do you play hockey? Surely not, because if you did, you'd understand that having a great vision is sometimes a better asset to have than good skating or shot.

Dude. Of All people, YOU are not in any position to ask me if I know this game when half the time you operate on faulty premises and fantasy ideas.

I never, ever said vision will not help score goals. I said you don't score goals with your vision and I stand by that. Saying Crosby will score more goals than Brule "because he has better vision" didn't make any sense and still doesn't.

There's a lot more to scoring goals than just your vision.

That's true for anyone, including Gretzky (who shouldn't have been brought in yet another Crosby thread)

 

[Blane Youngblood]

I think he was referring to last year. Ovechkin went #1 with Phoenix picking Blake Wheeler at #5 and the Rangers taking Al Montoya at #6.

I know, the implication is that the Cayotes were tanking games for a shot at the #1 pick, who was Ovechkin. Clearly for the last few years we have been talking about Ovechkin as possibly the next great player in the NHL.

 

[rt]

I know, the implication is that the Cayotes were tanking games for a shot at the #1 pick, who was Ovechkin. Clearly for the last few years we have been talking about Ovechkin as possibly the next great player in the NHL.

Look at the players that the Coyotes had on the IR for the last couple of months (Their best goalscorer in Ladislav Nagy, their scoring leader from the previous season in Mike Johnson, and their ATOI leader in David Tanabe). Look who they had behind the bench for the last couple of months (A guy the players had no faith in, Bobby Francis, and the ever inept Rick Bowness). Look at their average age the last couple of months (one of the youngest in the league). They didn't tank. They were unlucky, they underperformed, and they were out gunned.

P.S.
Goaltending didn't help much either.

 

[GKJ]

Yowzas, Gilbert Brule slips to #3.

He is still the 2nd foward on the list though.


Jack Johnson being #2 on this list makes me wonder why even more than before why he isn't going to Grand Forks.

 

[markov`]

Dude. Of All people, YOU are not in any position to ask me if I know this game when half the time you operate on faulty premises and fantasy ideas.

I never, ever said vision will not help score goals. I said you don't score goals with your vision and I stand by that. Saying Crosby will score more goals than Brule "because he has better vision" didn't make any sense and still doesn't.

There's a lot more to scoring goals than just your vision.

That's true for anyone, including Gretzky (who shouldn't have been brought in yet another Crosby thread)

Comme je suis plus confortable en français et je sais que tu le parles, j'vais te repondre en cette langue.

Joues-tu au hockey? Je ne te connais pas pentoute, mais je sais que tu joues pas ou très rarement. Je suis aussi bien placé que quiconque pour te réprimander, tu te penses un dieu parce que t'as plus d'experience que moi sur HF? Et toi, le GRAND VladTheImpaler, tu as toujours raison? Tu sais, ça fait 13 ans que je joue au hockey et je crois que je comprends mieux la game que toi... parce que si tu comprenais, tu saurais que OUI, tu peux marquer des buts seulement avec ta vision. Avec une bonne vision, tu peux te démarquer et te retrouver dans des situations ou tu as le but désert. Je dirais comme X-Sharkie que la vision est le 2e atout le plus important au hockey après le coup de patin.

Mais bon, je dois pas avoir raison. Je suis pas un membre "reconnu" de HF Boards, comme toi. Y'a du monde qui se prenne pas mal trop au sérieux sur ces forums. Get a life.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Comme je suis plus confortable en français et je sais que tu le parles, j'vais te repondre en cette langue.

Joues-tu au hockey? Je ne te connais pas pentoute, mais je sais que tu joues pas ou très rarement. Je suis aussi bien placé que quiconque pour te réprimander, tu te penses un dieu parce que t'as plus d'experience que moi sur HF? Et toi, le GRAND VladTheImpaler, tu as toujours raison? Tu sais, ça fait 13 ans que je joue au hockey et je crois que je comprends mieux la game que toi... parce que si tu comprenais, tu saurais que OUI, tu peux marquer des buts seulement avec ta vision.

Trop drole... qui je suis pour te réprimander? Y'a du monde qui se prenne pas mal trop au sérieux sur ces forums.

Tu l'as pas pantoute. C'est pas parce que je pense que je suis grand, mais plutôt parce que je trouve que t'es un crisse d'innocent.

Et non, tu peux pas marquer des buts seulement avec ta vision en general. Il faut executer ce que tu vois aussi. C'est beau savoir où tu dois te rendre et lancer, mais ca te prends du patin et des mains aussi. Il y a des dizaines de petits détails dans ce jeu, tu le sais aussi bien que moi. Essaye pas de t'en faire accroire.

Malheureusement, ca fait longtemps que je joue plus.

Si tu pense que je me vante de mon "experience" sur un site de hockey, tu te fourre un doigt dans l'oeil, ti-coune. Si tu pense que j'evalue l'experience des autres, meme chose. Moi, je remarque à l'oeil ceux qui disent des niaiseries. Comme toi. C'est tout. J'ai bien du respect pour les gens qui disent les vrais choses, qu'ils aient 1 post ou 10,000 posts.

Maintenant, rewind la conversation un peu. Tu commence par faire ton suffisant en suggérant que je connais rien au hockey. Quand je te répond que je trouve ca hilarant venant de toi, t'essaye de faire croire que c'est moi qui se pense plus fin que les autres? Faut-tu etre assez hypocrite!

La prochaine fois que tu veux faire passer quelqu'un pour un nigaud, tu t'essayera sur qq'un qui sais pas que t'es cruche. Moi je t'ai seulement répondu franchement. Je crois pas que tu sois placé pour me faire des lecons de hockey. Je n'en ferai cependant pas un drame en quatre actes.

Le fait demeure que de dire que Crosby va marquer plus de but que Brule parce qu'il a une meilleure vision n'est pas une réponse qui a du sens. C'est une réponse très incomplète. Là ca a virer dans toutes les directions parce que les gens sont fachés ou n'ont pas compris ce simple fait. La prochaine fois, tu fesseras sur quelqu'un d'autre si t'aime pas te faire répondre de la même facon que tu communique. Moi je tend pas l'autre joue.

 

[ChemiseBleuHonnete]

Moi je suis pas icite pour m'ostiner sur des conneries, mais y'as deux choses qui sont sures : la vision c'est important pour compter des buts, mais Vlad a jamais dit le contraire.

Par contre Vlad y'as une chose qui me fait chier dans ce que tu as dit :
"including Gretzky (who shouldn't have been brought in yet another Crosby thread)"... Heille ça tellement pas rapport ça! Je pense même que c'est moi qui a amené le nom de Gretzky, juste pour démontrer que la vision est un atout important pour compter des buts (j'ai pas à te le prouver, tu le sais bien.... j'ai juste dit ça pour pas oublier à quel point c'est important la vision pour les buts, c'est toute). Gretzky lui même disait qu'il ne s'est jamais considéré comme un marqueur naturel, mais que le fait qu'il est compté le plus de but dans la LNH est le résultat de son travail acharné et sa vision du jeu. Mais tu as raison quand tu dis que la vision uniquement ne peut pas amener les buts, ça prends aussi l'éxécution. Mais le p'ti commentaire sur le fait qu'on aurait pas du parler de Gretzky dans une discussion sur Crosby, c'est juste plate... Ça même pas rapport avec Crosby ce que j'ai dit tsé.

 

[Aaron Vickers]

He is still the 2nd foward on the list though.


Jack Johnson being #2 on this list makes me wonder why even more than before why he isn't going to Grand Forks.

Sort of in the same way Brule wont be there?

Because there are better players to send.