Isles vs Panthers in the “playoffs”

[Kevin27NYI]

Hmm

Just came to say good call. Still surprised. Better for us!!!

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

Wow. And just like that the Islanders got their best defenseman back.

He is not their best defenseman.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

A lockout shortened season didn't change the playoff format. Didn't have teams all playing in a central hub with likely little to no fans at all. Teams also now are going to be getting players back from injury they likely wouldn't have if the playoffs started on time.

There are more than a handful of differences from missing the first part of a season, oppose to having an entire backend disrupted and an entire round robin style tournament implemented.

Right but what team is in a different situation, who is getting screwed or disadvantaged that you'd need to asterisk the win? Suppose Colorado wins, why should their win be viewed any less than the previous team? They entered the playoffs under the same rules as everyone else. Do we discount wins prior to expansion because it's different? Or how about when hey switched from 1-8 versus what it was last year? Who gets asterisked there?

I'm just saying, it's different. But that doesn't mean it gets asterisked.

 

[YearlyLottery]

He is not their best defenseman.

Defensively? Yes he is. Who is better defensively? The only reasonable answer is Pulock, but they are both on the same pairing and play against the top lines.

How about a little explanation?

 

[Kevin27NYI]

So if Pelech is set, we're extremely deep everywhere. Very equipped to have the battle of attrition that is the playoffs.

Lee-Barzal-Eberle
Beau-Nelson-Brassard
Dal Colle-Pageau-Bailey
Martin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck

Pelech-Pulock
Toews-Mayfield
Leddy-Boychuk

Ladd and MDC are 50/50 for me. Liked where Ladds game was at, same could be said for MDC but I trust Trotz.

Having Ladd/MDC, Leo and Bellows all on the outside looking in plus Greene and Dobson ready as well. Greene-Dobson is a really good pair and they aren't even in!

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Defensively? Yes he is. Who is better defensively? The only reasonable answer is Pulock, but they are both on the same pairing and play against the top lines.

How about a little explanation?

Defensively Pelech is best. Overall I'd go Pulock.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Defensively Pelech is best. Overall I'd go Pulock.

Absolutely agree. I think if you say Pulock is better that is fine, but Pelech would easily be #2. I think if he is not top two on people's list defensively they are missing the little things that add up to making him so great.

 

[doublechili]

Defensively? Yes he is. Who is better defensively? The only reasonable answer is Pulock, but they are both on the same pairing and play against the top lines.

How about a little explanation?

The Isles don't have a best defenseman!

 

[YearlyLottery]

The Isles don't have a best defenseman!

hmmmm I originally thought I was right with how I wrote it but I was def wrong. I’m not in mid season form give me a break!

 

[impaaaaaact]

Team is healthy and rock solid down the board. Islanders are a well coached team and that always seems to make a difference after long absences - I think that gives us a big advantage in the first (possibly first 2?) round. Having Pelech and Cizikas back is huge - I think there's a good chance we get back to the defensive dominance we had at the beginning of the year before we lost those guys for extended periods of time. Unless I counted wrong, isles were 25-11-3 with Pelech, which makes them 10-12-7 without him - it's a crude way of calculating value, but you can look back and see that's right about where the season took a turn for the worse. That's literally going from winning 2/3 of games to 1/3. Fans of other teams won't recognize, but those two players are a HUGE part of what makes this team work - both are in the top 5 most important players on the team IMO (Barzal, Nelson, and Pulock being the other three).

On another note, what are the chances you think we see Greiss as the 1A for this series given his general dominance of Florida in 2016? He also won both games against them this year - seems like something we could possibly see

 

[IslandersFan17]

Right but what team is in a different situation, who is getting screwed or disadvantaged that you'd need to asterisk the win? Suppose Colorado wins, why should their win be viewed any less than the previous team? They entered the playoffs under the same rules as everyone else. Do we discount wins prior to expansion because it's different? Or how about when hey switched from 1-8 versus what it was last year? Who gets asterisked there?

I'm just saying, it's different. But that doesn't mean it gets asterisked.

The examples you give aren't the same situation. At all. For example changing the seeding is not nearly as drastic as a 24 team round robin.
Teams are left with games in hand
Teams are getting players back they otherwise wouldn't have
Teams are included that otherwise wouldn't be.
Teams don't have home ice.
Teams are all forced to play on an ice surface that is likely to be used multiple times a day.
This will 100% effect next seasons product.


I understand there were circumstances in the past, but to act like this isn't a very extraordinary set of circumstances that has drastically changed how a champion is crowned...

Let me be clear, im happy sports are coming back. Especially a little puck action. However, to me, it would be better if this was a standalone tournament that had some sort of consolation, just not the cup.

 

[doublechili]

hmmmm I originally thought I was right with how I wrote it but I was def wrong. I’m not in mid season form give me a break!

Oh, I wasn't intending to be giving you grief on that - it was just a joke.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

The examples you give aren't the same situation. At all. For example changing the seeding is not nearly as drastic as a 24 team round robin.
Teams are left with games in hand
Teams are getting players back they otherwise wouldn't have
Teams are included that otherwise wouldn't be.
Teams don't have home ice.
Teams are all forced to play on an ice surface that is likely to be used multiple times a day.
This will 100% effect next seasons product.


I understand there were circumstances in the past, but to act like this isn't a very extraordinary set of circumstances that has drastically changed how a champion is crowned...

Let me be clear, im happy sports are coming back. Especially a little puck action. However, to me, it would be better if this was a standalone tournament that had some sort of consolation, just not the cup.

They used point percentage
So? Those are still players of the team and under contract and able to play
That helped solve the problems of playing an incomplete season. And they are lower seeded, so beat the teams you're supposed to beat.
No one does, even ground
Then so is your opponent. No fair, unfairness there.
What does that have to do with this having an asterisk

It is different than other years but team to team there are no disadvantages that other teams don't have.

So like every year, teams will play series, advance and a winner will be crowned.

 

[PK Cronin]

He is not their best defenseman.

Defensively he is, and it's not even close.

Right but what team is in a different situation, who is getting screwed or disadvantaged that you'd need to asterisk the win? Suppose Colorado wins, why should their win be viewed any less than the previous team? They entered the playoffs under the same rules as everyone else. Do we discount wins prior to expansion because it's different? Or how about when hey switched from 1-8 versus what it was last year? Who gets asterisked there?

I'm just saying, it's different. But that doesn't mean it gets asterisked.

The problem is that the rules changed in the middle of play, without it actually concluding the way it should've. Boston didn't enter the playoffs under the same rules as everyone else, Montreal shouldn't be sniffing being in the playoffs based off the criteria given to teams and players prior to the shut down. That's why it's so different from a lockout year or an expansion year. Everything was shifted right when everyone was approaching the finish line. If Montreal goes on to win the cup, it deserves an asterisk because they wouldn't and couldn't have won the cup if not for the pandemic shut down. They're not being included because of point percentage or because of the current standings (like the Islanders and Columbus), they're being included to help generate lost revenue.

The examples you give aren't the same situation. At all. For example changing the seeding is not nearly as drastic as a 24 team round robin.
Teams are left with games in hand
Teams are getting players back they otherwise wouldn't have
Teams are included that otherwise wouldn't be.
Teams don't have home ice.
Teams are all forced to play on an ice surface that is likely to be used multiple times a day.
This will 100% effect next seasons product.


I understand there were circumstances in the past, but to act like this isn't a very extraordinary set of circumstances that has drastically changed how a champion is crowned...

Let me be clear, im happy sports are coming back. Especially a little puck action. However, to me, it would be better if this was a standalone tournament that had some sort of consolation, just not the cup.

If a team who otherwise would've made the playoffs or was on the bubble and could have made the playoffs wins the cup, okay, fine. If some outlier like Montreal wins I'll be annoyed. I think your breakdown is really good.

They used point percentage

Point percentage is what they should use here, but that doesn't mean it's ideal. The Islanders were reeling and might've missed the playoffs without the break. They didn't get in because they were definitely going to be in, they got in because the season was ended before they could fall further.

So? Those are still players of the team and under contract and able to play

I think this is one of the better arguments you can make. Every team has injuries, and this format will actually give the best of each roster instead of certain teams missing key players heading into the playoffs.

That helped solve the problems of playing an incomplete season. And they are lower seeded, so beat the teams you're supposed to beat.

Right, but there's an ebb and flow to the season. Tampa Bay was ramping up their play for the playoff push, that's partly by design. The season just being cut short could undo a lot of the progress they were making as a team and evens the playing field, and it happened randomly. That's obviously a disadvantage to them.

No one does, even ground

Which isn't what was said prior to the season, which is a problem. Part of the reason teams try to get into the top spots is so they have home ice.

Then so is your opponent. No fair, unfairness there.

I think it can negate a team's ability in some ways. If you're a finesse team and draw the last time slot too many times, it can really impact your game when the ice is mush. It might be even since both teams are playing on the same surface, but it doesn't hurt the team built for a different style that would've been able to play that style if it weren't for the pandemic.

It is different than other years but team to team there are no disadvantages that other teams don't have.

So like every year, teams will play series, advance and a winner will be crowned.

There are no disadvantages, but there are no advantages for the top teams either, which is what some teams were playing the regular season for. There is also the advantage for the bottom teams who otherwise wouldn't even be competing for the cup. They'd be eliminated already.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Oh, I wasn't intending to be giving you grief on that - it was just a joke.

I was joking back lmfao

 

[mm11]

Team is healthy and rock solid down the board. Islanders are a well coached team and that always seems to make a difference after long absences - I think that gives us a big advantage in the first (possibly first 2?) round. Having Pelech and Cizikas back is huge - I think there's a good chance we get back to the defensive dominance we had at the beginning of the year before we lost those guys for extended periods of time. Unless I counted wrong, isles were 25-11-3 with Pelech, which makes them 10-12-7 without him - it's a crude way of calculating value, but you can look back and see that's right about where the season took a turn for the worse. That's literally going from winning 2/3 of games to 1/3. Fans of other teams won't recognize, but those two players are a HUGE part of what makes this team work - both are in the top 5 most important players on the team IMO (Barzal, Nelson, and Pulock being the other three).

On another note, what are the chances you think we see Greiss as the 1A for this series given his general dominance of Florida in 2016? He also won both games against them this year - seems like something we could possibly see

I think Trotz give varly a really short leash.

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

Defensively he is, and it's not even close.



The problem is that the rules changed in the middle of play, without it actually concluding the way it should've. Boston didn't enter the playoffs under the same rules as everyone else, Montreal shouldn't be sniffing being in the playoffs based off the criteria given to teams and players prior to the shut down. That's why it's so different from a lockout year or an expansion year. Everything was shifted right when everyone was approaching the finish line. If Montreal goes on to win the cup, it deserves an asterisk because they wouldn't and couldn't have won the cup if not for the pandemic shut down. They're not being included because of point percentage or because of the current standings (like the Islanders and Columbus), they're being included to help generate lost revenue.



If a team who otherwise would've made the playoffs or was on the bubble and could have made the playoffs wins the cup, okay, fine. If some outlier like Montreal wins I'll be annoyed. I think your breakdown is really good.



Point percentage is what they should use here, but that doesn't mean it's ideal. The Islanders were reeling and might've missed the playoffs without the break. They didn't get in because they were definitely going to be in, they got in because the season was ended before they could fall further.



I think this is one of the better arguments you can make. Every team has injuries, and this format will actually give the best of each roster instead of certain teams missing key players heading into the playoffs.



Right, but there's an ebb and flow to the season. Tampa Bay was ramping up their play for the playoff push, that's partly by design. The season just being cut short could undo a lot of the progress they were making as a team and evens the playing field, and it happened randomly. That's obviously a disadvantage to them.



Which isn't what was said prior to the season, which is a problem. Part of the reason teams try to get into the top spots is so they have home ice.



I think it can negate a team's ability in some ways. If you're a finesse team and draw the last time slot too many times, it can really impact your game when the ice is mush. It might be even since both teams are playing on the same surface, but it doesn't hurt the team built for a different style that would've been able to play that style if it weren't for the pandemic.



There are no disadvantages, but there are no advantages for the top teams either, which is what some teams were playing the regular season for. There is also the advantage for the bottom teams who otherwise wouldn't even be competing for the cup. They'd be eliminated already.

Defensively I will give you he is either first or second best, but he has no offensive ability whatsoever and he is nowhere near as physical as Boychuk or Mayfield, so overall I still think he is either 2nd or 3rd.
But more importantly Adam Pelech would not be a top 2 dman on more than 5-7 teams in the league. That speaks volumes about the Isles defense, it is basically a group of 6 second pairing dmen.

 

[PK Cronin]

Defensively I will give you he is either first or second best, but he has no offensive ability whatsoever and he is nowhere near as physical as Boychuk or Mayfield, so overall I still think he is either 2nd or 3rd.
But more importantly Adam Pelech would not be a top 2 dman on more than 5-7 teams in the league. That speaks volumes about the Isles defense, it is basically a group of 6 second pairing dmen.

We'll agree to disagree. A defensive defenseman like him would absolutely be paired with a #1, almost regardless of which team (so long as the #1 wasn't playing the same side).

 

[BelovedIsles]

Pelech is NYI's best pure defender. Not one of his fanboys, just appreciate his shutdowns. As mentioned elsewhere, his gap control is elite, his reach is elite, he has improved his poise so much at this juncture; he's as smart as CDH or the heralded Kenny Jonsson (my all-time fav defender). He previously rushed outlets (blind ones); now he waits the extra milli-second to gauge the best option. He's mobile, physical enough to withstand board battles. His reads are elite, he anticipates breakouts before they happen. Not much else you want from a shutdown defender.

 

[IslandersFan17]

They used point percentage
So? Those are still players of the team and under contract and able to play
That helped solve the problems of playing an incomplete season. And they are lower seeded, so beat the teams you're supposed to beat.
No one does, even ground
Then so is your opponent. No fair, unfairness there.
What does that have to do with this having an asterisk

It is different than other years but team to team there are no disadvantages that other teams don't have.

So like every year, teams will play series, advance and a winner will be crowned.

Point percentage doesn't erase games in hand.

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

Pelech is NYI's best pure defender. Not one of his fanboys, just appreciate his shutdowns. As mentioned elsewhere, his gap control is elite, his reach is elite, he has improved his poise so much at this juncture; he's as smart as CDH or the heralded Kenny Jonsson (my all-time fav defender). He previously rushed outlets (blind ones); now he waits the extra milli-second to gauge the best option. He's mobile, physical enough to withstand board battles. His reads are elite, he anticipates breakouts before they happen. Not much else you want from a shutdown defender.

Not saying I disagree with his strengths, but we also cannot ignore that this guy has flaws. He makes a ton of mistakes and giveaways, is not physical and has no offensive abilities. Again, really good defensive defenseman, but people are saying he is a clear cut top pairing guy in the whole league. He is not as good as Kenny Jonsson was and he certainly is not on the level of a Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Vlasic, Chara, Suter, Weber and on and on.

 

[PK Cronin]

Not saying I disagree with his strengths, but we also cannot ignore that this guy has flaws. He makes a ton of mistakes and giveaways, is not physical and has no offensive abilities. Again, really good defensive defenseman, but people are saying he is a clear cut top pairing guy in the whole league. He is not as good as Kenny Jonsson was and he certainly is not on the level of a Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Vlasic, Chara, Suter, Weber and on and on.

I'd disagree with this. He's so sound, that's what makes him so good. He covers for his teammates mistakes more than he makes his own at this point (pre-injury anyway). The not physical part is a little misleading too, he doesn't throw big hits but he can eliminate anyone along the wall and pin them there. He doesn't shy away from the physicality, he just doesn't go out of his way to lay bruising hits.

 

[Tres Peleches]

I’ve said it a million times, I’ll say it again

this team, when healthy, is a deep a team that can compete with any team in the league.

Their only weaknesses are on the wing, and in their secondary depth. If any important cigs go down, they’re in trouble

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

I'd disagree with this. He's so sound, that's what makes him so good. He covers for his teammates mistakes more than he makes his own at this point (pre-injury anyway). The not physical part is a little misleading too, he doesn't throw big hits but he can eliminate anyone along the wall and pin them there. He doesn't shy away from the physicality, he just doesn't go out of his way to lay bruising hits.

I really dont want to drag this out because in fact I like Pelech, I think he has really improved and stepped up in the last 2 years. I think he is a really solid 2nd pairing guy on any top team in the NHL, but I stand by him not being in the same league as other top defensive defensemen in the league and advanced stats would definitely back me up when even just compared against other Isles defensemen. He actually has the second worst Corsi and Fenwick numbers of our 6 regular dmen and as far as the mistakes go, for comparative purposes, Pelech has 48 giveaways in 38 games, while Boychuk and Leddy have 50 and 52 respectively in 60+ games. All I am saying is that Pelech makes his share of mistakes but does not get the ridicule of the other dmen.

 

[PK Cronin]

I really dont want to drag this out because in fact I like Pelech, I think he has really improved and stepped up in the last 2 years. I think he is a really solid 2nd pairing guy on any top team in the NHL, but I stand by him not being in the same league as other top defensive defensemen in the league and advanced stats would definitely back me up when even just compared against other Isles defensemen. He actually has the second worst Corsi and Fenwick numbers of our 6 regular dmen and as far as the mistakes go, for comparative purposes, Pelech has 48 giveaways in 38 games, while Boychuk and Leddy have 50 and 52 respectively in 60+ games. All I am saying is that Pelech makes his share of mistakes but does not get the ridicule of the other dmen.

I don't think he's in the same class as the guys you mentioned earlier (Doughty, etc.), but I think he's better than a second pairing guy. I'd be curious to see ice time in relation to those giveaways. Maybe it's his ability to recover that also makes him better. Who has the worst Corsi and Fenwick, and was that just for this season or for last as well? I don't find either of those particular stats all that appealing in determining how good someone is but it's certainly interesting. His ability to generate offense is his worst attribute I think, and it's not so much that he doesn't do the right things in the offensive zone or on the rush, it's that he doesn't have a great shot and can never seem to bury grade A opportunities. Maybe one day.