Post-Game Talk: Islanders 4, Penguins 1 - Was It Over When The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor?

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd move Hornqvist before Kessel based on this series. When Phil is the hardest working guy out there, there's an issue!

Or there's not and issue and you're still pushing a narrative that is tired and old on this board that Phil Kessel isn't a hard working player. You pretend like he's Michael Ryder, he's not. Kessel is a far better player than he gets credit for here and more than what we deserve to be honest with how much people trash him.

As for Hornqvist, I only move him at this point because the team refuses to use him correctly and it's gotten to the point of frustration. There's no "move before" in this scenario. It's move Hornqvist before he finally loses it and wants off because they can't figure out how to use him or the person he is effective with, has a penchant for making his line-up choices like he's the coach when that should never be the case no matter how f***ing legendary you are.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I can’t see any realistic scenarios where Hornqvist is moved. There would be a market for him, but it won’t happen I believe.

I think Maatta and Kessel will be moved... maybeeee Gubs because it’s a one year deal...

That’s basically a nuclear summer.

I think Maatta's already gone. JJ had a miserable game 2 and he still didn't sit for Maatta in game 3. That speaks volumes to me about his status for the future. I'd love to think JJ's gone, because he's downright awful, but I'm not holding my breath. It'd take a very un-GM-like about face from JR.

I think Kessel's as good as gone too. I've expected as much since last Spring where he puttered out against the Caps and threw fits on the bench, barking at anyone and everyone from Geno to Sully. His pretty lackluster season, in terms of play on the ice, only served to solidify my stance on that. He's gone, and I do think that if we're smart about it, we'll be better for it.

Horny is probably my favorite guy outside of Sid, Geno and Jake, but he makes too sizeable a chunk of money to be a ghost on the scoresheet as often as he is. I think he's got a lot more of an impact than people give him credit for, and much of his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet (screens, drawing guys down to the crease, causing havoc around the net), but it is what it is. For north of $5 million a year, you'd better be scoring at a better clip than he has this season. He's also another in a long list of aging skaters, and the beating he takes on a shift by shift basis isn't going to do him any favors as he gets older. Injury is going to catch up sooner rather than later. But the bigger factor for Kessel and Horny is that they're two of the more replaceable parts of the machine, and they fit into that group of aging guys (Sid, Geno, Letang, Phil, Horny) who make nearly $38 million a year. You're never going to move Sid, nor should you. You're never going to move Geno, even if you decide to go that route, because he makes $9.5 million, has serious trouble staying healthy, and is already 33 in a couple of months. Letang's a guy I'm worried about as far as health goes, but he's stellar for us when he's healthy and on his game--I wouldn't replace him with anyone but Karlsson, which may be a possibility this summer if things fall into place.

It's a big mess.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'd move Hornqvist before Kessel based on this series. When Phil is the hardest working guy out there, there's an issue!

Seems logical, but I highly suspect the org sees it the opposite way.

I think Maatta's already gone. JJ had a miserable game 2 and he still didn't sit for Maatta in game 3. That speaks volumes to me about his status for the future. I'd love to think JJ's gone, because he's downright awful, but I'm not holding my breath. It'd take a very un-GM-like about face from JR.

I think Kessel's as good as gone too. I've expected as much since last Spring where he puttered out against the Caps and threw fits on the bench, barking at anyone and everyone from Geno to Sully. His pretty lackluster season, in terms of play on the ice, only served to solidify my stance on that. He's gone, and I do think that if we're smart about it, we'll be better for it.

Horny is probably my favorite guy outside of Sid, Geno and Jake, but he makes too sizeable a chunk of money to be a ghost on the scoresheet as often as he is. I think he's got a lot more of an impact than people give him credit for, and much of his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet (screens, drawing guys down to the crease, causing havoc around the net), but it is what it is. For north of $5 million a year, you'd better be scoring at a better clip than he has this season. He's also another in a long list of aging skaters, and the beating he takes on a shift by shift basis isn't going to do him any favors as he gets older. Injury is going to catch up sooner rather than later. But the bigger factor for Kessel and Horny is that they're two of the more replaceable parts of the machine, and they fit into that group of aging guys (Sid, Geno, Letang, Phil, Horny) who make nearly $38 million a year. You're never going to move Sid, nor should you. You're never going to move Geno, even if you decide to go that route, because he makes $9.5 million, has serious trouble staying healthy, and is already 33 in a couple of months. Letang's a guy I'm worried about as far as health goes, but he's stellar for us when he's healthy and on his game--I wouldn't replace him with anyone but Karlsson, which may be a possibility this summer if things fall into place.

It's a big mess.

I don’t think it’s a big mess TBTH. But JR has to admit he f***ed up getting away from what made them successful and again I’m not sure if he sees it that way.

If he does, I believe this team can be extremely good again... if he doubles down on his philosophy that lead them here, then ya the mess is unfixable.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Seems logical, but I highly suspect the org sees it the opposite way.

Then when Hornqvist has his 10th concussion while Crosby asks for the corpse to Rob Brown as his right winger, they'll finally move him for a 7th round pick and blame it for not being a good fit.

 

[Dangles78]

Is it even possible to revamp the Defense in one offseason?

Gudz - 2 years @ 4.00
Olli - 3 years @ 4.08
JFJ - 4 years @ 3.25

Who wants those contracts? And how do we get defenders that can actually transition the puck? UFA class looks weak, prospect pool looks weak....

 

[lastcupever75]

He also preaches "just play" but the team stopped doing that.

its easy to say "just play" when you're not the one absorbing the shots.
Put yourself in the situation and see if you just skate away

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Seems logical, but I highly suspect the org sees it the opposite way.



I don’t think it’s a big mess TBTH. But JR has to admit he ****ed up getting away from what made them successful and again I’m not sure if he sees it that way.

If he does, I believe this team can be extremely good again... if he doubles down on his philosophy that lead them here, then ya the mess is unfixable.

I will admit, pessimistic or not, I have zero faith in JR. If he does it right, awesome, but I'm not holding out any hope.

But I do think it's a big mess when the entirety of your blueline beyond Letang, Dumo and Petts is wholly incapable of playing your style. Then you sprinkle in the issues with Phil and Horny and you've got a dumpster casserole.

We'll see though. If nothing else, it should make for an eventful summer.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Then when Hornqvist has his 10th concussion while Crosby asks for the corpse to Rob Brown as his right winger, they'll finally move him for a 7th round pick and blame it for not being a good fit.

I’d move Hornqvist this summer, but ya...

Just saying I’ll be shocked if Kessel isn’t moved. His NTC may be the only reason they don’t move him, but we shall see what chatter leaks out in the coming weeks.

I will admit, pessimistic or not, I have zero faith in JR. If he does it right, awesome, but I'm not holding out any hope.

But I do think it's a big mess when the entirety of your blueline beyond Letang, Dumo and Petts is wholly incapable of playing your style. Then you sprinkle in the issues with Phil and Horny and you've got a dumpster casserole.

We'll see though. If nothing else, it should make for an eventful summer.

My thing is, the path they are on now is already a path that will only lead to one god awful shitty mess anyway. If JR screws it up worse... *shrugs*

But at least if he tries to fix it he may... I’ll take that percentage of a chance over the 0.0% percentage of leaving this roster the same.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think it is kind of funny people are saying speed works when basically every contender this year besides Tampa plays heavy hockey.

As much as I blame this on JR, his idea is the right one. The league is going back to bigger, heavier hockey.

The speedy teams. Montreal, Colorado, Carolina. Where they at?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

They weren’t going well and we were losing games.

Not true. They were going well.

We won our 2nd last game and only lost the last one due to Georgiev outplaying Murray.

Crosby was lighting it up at ES when McCann was put back on his line and has gone AWOL since Rust was put back there (as before). The numbers bear this out.

L3 wasn't producing but it was dominating possession, something we could sorely use.

What's not going well and losing us games is the Stubborn Sully Special configuration we have right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

Another thing I’d like to point out Karlsson has been on the ice for 9 of the 10 goals Vegas has so far.

#elitedefensemenmakingmistakes..

 

[Shady Machine]

I think it is kind of funny people are saying speed works when basically every contender this year besides Tampa plays heavy hockey.

As much as I blame this on JR, his idea is the right one. The league is going back to bigger, heavier hockey.

The speedy teams. Montreal, Colorado, Carolina. Where they at?

?? The Isles are outskating the hell out of us

 

[Gurglesons]

?? The Isles are outskating the hell out of us

Do you consider New York a contender?

And I would argue it isn’t the Isles speed that is giving us fits. It is the fact they are playing a fast, safe game. Something we used to do.

 

[JRS91]

If this team gets swept, I'm fairly certain no one outside Crosby, Malkin or Letang are safe.

I'd break it down like this. Crosby, Malkin, Letang are untouchable barring an absolute steal offer. Guentzel, Dumoulin and Murray wouldn't make sense to move. Guentzel is our best winger on a fair contract, Dumoulin is arguably our best all-around defenseman, and despite all the flack Murray gets, he's been the reason these games have been so close. Bjugstad, McCann, Rust, Blueger, Schultz and Pettersson aren't the issues. I doubt any of those guys get moved. They've all been good and having them here makes a difference.

People forget this team has standards and while some questionable moves have been made since 2017, they're still a good team and equally good moves have been made to make up for the bad ones. My only concern is the Penguins trading Kessel, Maatta or Hornqvist and getting some cap relief only to blow on it someone who doesn't fit in free agency. The only free agent I'd currently want is Eberle, and he's probably the only tangible option on the wing.

Right now you shop Kessel or Hornqvist. You either keep one or the other. Kessel has probably been our best forward so far and despite his baggage is still productive. Hornqvist is one of my favorite players and is a heart and soul guy but is a powerplay specialist making $5.3M a season. I think you move which one gives you the better return, which could be either depending on the receiving team. Logically you would keep Maatta and move Johnson, but I'm not sure if the Penguins are going to do that. Maatta is by no means someone I'd want to keep but if I'm deciding between the two, he's definitely the better defenseman.

I think our biggest issue is how we've thrown away our 1st round picks. I understand this is a win-now team and has been for the past 7 or 8 years, but look at our past 5 years of 1st round picks. Penguins draft Kapanen. Our 2015 1st round pick is traded for Perron. Kapanen and our 1st round pick in 2016 goes to Toronto for Kessel. Perron goes to Anaheim for Hagelin. Now, I'd say that's an instance where it worked. Sure, hindsight's 20/20, Perron was an established winger it just didn't work out. Hagelin was absolutely worth a 1st in 2016, he was arguably one of our best wingers that season, he fell off a bit but still worth it in my opinion. The Kessel trade was absolutely worth it. That said, 2017 we basically trade our 1st round pick and Sundqvist for Reaves and a high 2nd round pick. Our 1st for 2018, a top goalie prospect and Cole goes to Ottawa for Brassard. Once again, hindsight's 20/20 and we managed to salvage that deal for McCann and Bjugstad. I think if you're the Penguins you try to get younger, faster and more skilled. Slower and tougher hasn't helped us the past 2 years.

 

[BoysofWinter66871]

Or there's not and issue and you're still pushing a narrative that is tired and old on this board that Phil Kessel isn't a hard working player. You pretend like he's Michael Ryder, he's not. Kessel is a far better player than he gets credit for here and more than what we deserve to be honest with how much people trash him.

As for Hornqvist, I only move him at this point because the team refuses to use him correctly and it's gotten to the point of frustration. There's no "move before" in this scenario. It's move Hornqvist before he finally loses it and wants off because they can't figure out how to use him or the person he is effective with, has a penchant for making his line-up choices like he's the coach when that should never be the case no matter how ****ing legendary you are.

I didn't say he didn't work hard. I said when he visibly stands out as the only guy busting ass out there, there is an effort problem with our other "stars." I'm very much for keeping Phil another season. Horny is 1 hit away from being Lindros.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not true. They were going well.

We won our 2nd last game and only lost the last one due to Georgiev outplaying Murray.

Crosby was lighting it up at ES when McCann was put back on his line and has gone AWOL since Rust was put back there (as before). The numbers bear this out.

L3 wasn't producing but it was dominating possession, something we could sorely use.

What's not going well and losing us games is the Stubborn Sully Special configuration we have right now.

I’m not really that impressed by 9 goals produced between the three of them in 130 minutes at ES.

I’m not saying they were bad. I just think a lot of people are defaulting to that line as being great because it is something we aren’t seeing.

I agree with your sentiment. It just is weird that so many people turn on Sully when Kessel and Geno needed to be split up and the way the lines have been is really one of the only ways to do it.

 

[WayneSid9987]

As much as i love Phil when he's going well i'm just not sure where he fits.
He'll never be with Sid and does anyone trust
x-G/Bjugs/Blueger-Phil
...for next season?

Give me a solid, identity changing type LW'er that can put up some points and i can easily let go of Phil and have the option of moving Bjugs to RW if i want to.

At minimum on D JR SHOULD be moving Olli and either 1) trading JJ. 2) buying out JJ or 3) Planning on burying him in the minors the rest of his career as a Pen.

 

[lastcupever75]

1) Sid/Geno/Letang/Jake: The worst 3 games from these 4. I think if you had me point out who had the absolute worst effort, it's these 4. All of 'em out for Sunday skates. And people joke about Phil's effort? Phil looks like he's Gary Roberts compared to these 4. Jake/Sid/Geno especially. I've never seen so many lazy loops back/forth. They cheat up ice. They don't support. Pathetic d-responsibility in the o-zone (which you pointed out all year).

totally agree with this.

and those placing blame at the coach and GM. how is that their fault?

 

[WayneSid9987]

My thing is, the path they are on now is already a path that will only lead to one god awful ****ty mess anyway. If JR screws it up worse... *shrugs*

But at least if he tries to fix it he may... I’ll take that percentage of a chance over the 0.0% percentage of leaving this roster the same.

He literally can't go out and get a worst defenseman than the 2 he brought in this season from a statistical pov.
Only way is up BUT WOOF! if he rolls into next season with JJ and Guds still in the top 6...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I didn't say he didn't work hard. I said when he visibly stands out as the only guy busting ass out there, there is an effort problem with our other "stars." I'm very much for keeping Phil another season. Horny is 1 hit away from being Lindros.

Ah, my bad then. Just that the narrative on Kessel here is to trash him at every turn and blame him for Malkin being crap and etc etc...you know what I mean?

 

[Gurglesons]

totally agree with this.

and those placing blame at the coach and GM. how is that their fault?

Sullivan deserves blame due to his line blender and the fact the top six is fairly easy to resolve. If he wants to preach a hard line and demand accountability he can’t let Sid or Malkin choose their line mates. I didn’t disagree with the way Sprong was treated here, but there was definitely truth in what some people were getting upset about.

Rutherford has banked top five payroll into one of the worst D cores in the league. All we had to do was sign De Haan or acquire Jensen at the deadline and not sign or acquire Gudbranson or JJ. Gudbranson has been good for us, but he has 4 mil on his contract and another year.

He also didn’t address the glaring hole at Lw ( granted I’m not super down on that given it likely costs our 1st).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You don't need a team full of Hagelins to be a fast team. Basically every team I watch in the post-season plays at a clip that's orders of magnitude faster than us.

We employ that system, but can't get up and running because of an awfully constructed blueline.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Teams go on stretches, hot and cold. The bigger picture is the multi-year long sample size with regard to the issues that've plagued this team, even going back to the second of back to backs. That is a direct result of the direction JR has taken in terms of building this team.

We're old. We're incapable of playing the style we need to because the blueline, outside of Dumo and Letang, is woeful in transition. We got complacent and lazy at forward. We need to get younger, hungry guys to replace the Phils and the Hornys.

If you honestly think that as of this series one of the important problems to fix is that Kessel isn't young or hungry enough when you have a team full of young, hungry turds being even more ineffective...

Kessel plays best on a team that has PMD who can make that first pass. I've literally never seen a team pass to him on transition less than this season's incarnation of the Penguins, and if that's a sign of this team's limitations in the seasons to come, they really should move him, if only for his own sake because he'd be completely wasted here when he's still got some good years left. He's got none left if the goal is to keep playing this shitty dump and chase low IQ garbage.

 

[Andy99]

You don't need a team full of Hagelins to be a fast team. Basically every team I watch in the post-season plays at a clip that's orders of magnitude faster than us.

We employ that system, but can't get up and running because of an awfully constructed blueline.

This is true...the pace of these other games is miles better than what the Pens play at...we don’t pressure anyone or get on Isles players quickly or move the puck briskly...you don’t need world beaters in foot speed ...I think our slower pace has to do with players not knowing what to do and playing tentative..is that because we have so many dumb players or is it the system? Dunno but either way it reflects poorly on the coach and GM

 

[WayneSid9987]

He also didn’t address the glaring hole at Lw ( granted I’m not super down on that given it likely costs our 1st).

All he'd need to do is gut cash. The UFA winger market is flush atm.